Immaculate Conception Question

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Recently I read an article that argued that Mary could not have been Immaculately Conceived, because then Her mother would have had to have been Immacutalely conceived, and so on. Obviously not accurate according to Catholic Doctrine, but I am curious how some of you would respond to such a theory as I cannot produce a reasonably worded response.
 
It is not important that St. Anne (the traditional name given to Mary’s mother) to have been without sin as she was not destined to carry our Saviour. Mary was.
 
I would say that the miracle of the Immaculate Conception is such because it did not have to be passed on genetically as a human attribute would have to be, it was a grace given by God in a single instant.
 
I think there was a similar thread the other day on this topic.

This argument only works if a Catholic (for some reason) is arguing that it is necessary for a person to be sinless themselves to produce a sinless offspring. That is not the Catholic teaching on why Mary was conceived without sin

First, it is important to note that the conception of a sinless human being and the conception of God Incarnate are two very different things. It’s like comparing apples and automobiles.

I don’t know that it was strictly necessary for Mary to be sinless (although, we know what happened to Uzzah when he touched the Ark of the Covenant in 2 Samuel 6:6-7), but it definitely is fitting on a number of levels. She was carrying God Himself! It is eminently appropriate that He be carried in a spotless vessel.

There’s much more that could be said, but that’s the brief version. 🙂
 
Recently I read an article that argued that Mary could not have been Immaculately Conceived, because then Her mother would have had to have been Immacutalely conceived, and so on. Obviously not accurate according to Catholic Doctrine, but I am curious how some of you would respond to such a theory as I cannot produce a reasonably worded response.
The argument is silly, based entirely on human logic and understanding. Could God have done it? Of course he could. He is God. The question is, did God will it?

The Grace of God protects me from sin every day. I have never had a desire to gamble and do not have a desire to steal. These are great graces, protection from evil given to me by God. Mary simply received the fullness of that grace and the perfection of that protection. That is why the angel Gabriel called her “Full of grace.” Mary understood this too.

The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. (Luke 1:49)

This was more than an expression of happiness at being pregnant. Remember that this statement was made after she was recognized as being worthy to carry God himself in her whomb. This line is Mary’s recognition of the great grace and protection she had recieved as a gift from God.

-Tim-
 
Recently I read an article that argued that Mary could not have been Immaculately Conceived, because then Her mother would have had to have been Immacutalely conceived, and so on. Obviously not accurate according to Catholic Doctrine, but I am curious how some of you would respond to such a theory as I cannot produce a reasonably worded response.
The fallacy is known as Infinite Regression or the Regress Argument. I know one site that accuses certain traditions of infinite regression while resorting to infinite regress to question the Immaculate Conception.

It is a misinterpreting of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The very reason for the doctrine is that it was a one-time event - an exception to the norm. A single undefiled vessel, though formed by defiled hands (Anne and Joachim), to bear the Holy One.
 
Boulder,

As some have mentioned, it is not necessary for St. Anne to have been sinless for Mary to have been born without original sin. The Holy Spirit simply performed a miracle on behalf of God and protected the embryo that was Mary from having original sin.

You may run up against the argument: Well if May was sinless, why did she need a redeemer in her son, Christ?

The teaching is that not only did Mary need Christ as her redeemer - she needed him MORE than anyone else, because Mary was PRESERVED from being stained with original sin by a “retroactive” application of Christ’s passion, rather than contracting original sin and then being immediately forgiven of it before her birth.

Duns Scotus explained as follows: When a person receives an abundance of forgiveness through the act of a mediator, that person is all the more in debt towards that mediator and owes to him any privilege that he or she acquires. Now this is the case of the Virgin Mary, who needed Christ more than all the other human beings. Mary needed Christ more than other human beings because she was being PRESERVED from original sin through the merits of the passion of Christ. Mary was, therefore, redeemed in a nobler manner. Above all, “it is more noble to forgive one’s guilt by preserving that person from it, than by permitting that same person to fall into guilt and than to remit that person’s guilt."

Here is an example: A man sins mortally only once and then God not only forgives him, but also preserves him from committing any more mortal sins. Then, we have another man who sins mortally, but does so more than once, and yet God forgives him every time he asks for forgiveness. Now who of the two receives the more perfect forgiveness? Scotus says that it is the first one, in the sense that God not only has forgiven him in a more noble way, but has also preserved him from falling into sin in the future. Thus he is more indebted to God. The same is true in the case of the Virgin Mary being preserved from all sin, and thus being in “debt” to Christ as her redeemer more than any of us.

For our human, simple minds, it appears at first as a conundrum: how can a person preserved from original sin be in debt to her redeemer more so than you or me? It is because the redemption was applied to Mary in such a way that original sin never stained her, whereas with us, although we achieve sanctification by repeatedly repenting and being forgiven if we truly repent, original sin stained us, baptism washed it away, but we needed Christ’s redemption and we need to continually repent because we continually sin.

You may get a response along the lines of, “that is a bunch of hogwash or mumbo jumbo”, but my way of shutting those types of people up is:

“God can do anything, and as such, he can apply Christ’s Passion, which had obviously not yet occurred at the time Mary was conceived, to Mary’s conception retroactively. To say this could not be done is to limit God - are you prepared to put a limitation on God?”

That usually shuts them up . . . 🙂
 
Recently I read an article that argued that Mary could not have been Immaculately Conceived, because then Her mother would have had to have been Immacutalely conceived, and so on. Obviously not accurate according to Catholic Doctrine, but I am curious how some of you would respond to such a theory as I cannot produce a reasonably worded response.
I cannot understand how a person can accept the virgin birth and then reject the immaculate conception. God can make a virgin pregnant without the need of a man, but the same God cannot preserve her from sin through an act of redemption. :confused:

I think that there are a lot of weak homebrew theologians that write articles. 😉
 
I did not see, in any of the preceding posts, any mention of why Mary could be and was conceived without sin before Jesus established the Sacrament of Baptism.

Consider this:

Mary was purely human, as human as we are, and as such she was subject to Original Sin without a doubt.

However, Jesus, God Himself, in choosing Mary to be holy tabernacle in which he would take on a complete second human nature in hypostatic union with His Divine Nature, required a human tabernacle absent of any sin.

God, who lives in the ever present Now, seeing, knowing, and existing in all eternity, does not experience time as we humans do, and being able to act both forward and backward in our time as we experience it, Mary was preserved from Original Sin because of the merits of her Divine Son Jesus, who, by His Passion, Death, and Resurrection, that occurred some 45-50(?) or so years after Mary’ conception.
 
I did not see, in any of the preceding posts, any mention of why Mary could be and was conceived without sin before Jesus established the Sacrament of Baptism.

Consider this:

Mary was purely human, as human as we are, and as such she was subject to Original Sin without a doubt.

However, Jesus, God Himself, in choosing Mary to be holy tabernacle in which he would take on a complete second human nature in hypostatic union with His Divine Nature, required a human tabernacle absent of any sin.

God, who lives in the ever present Now, seeing, knowing, and existing in all eternity, does not experience time as we humans do, and being able to act both forward and backward in our time as we experience it, Mary was preserved from Original Sin because of the merits of her Divine Son Jesus, who, by His Passion, Death, and Resurrection, that occurred some 45-50(?) or so years after Mary’ conception.
FYI: The Immaculate Conception is a defined dogma of the Catholic Church and as such we Catholics are bound under the pain of sin to believe
 
FYI: The Immaculate Conception is a defined dogma of the Catholic Church and as such we Catholics are bound under the pain of sin to believe
Its OK to research it but the only thing permissible is to try better understand the mystery and wonder of it within our human limitations.
 
Recently I read an article that argued that Mary could not have been Immaculately Conceived, because then Her mother would have had to have been Immacutalely conceived, and so on. Obviously not accurate according to Catholic Doctrine, but I am curious how some of you would respond to such a theory as I cannot produce a reasonably worded response.
Just adding one more pointers for those questioning this…I have asked some protestants against the IC, if thy think God can do it—that is immaculately concieve Mary? Their answer is usually yes, otherwise, they are limiting God, which they will not do.

Then follow up with: If God can do it, then why do you think He did not do it? They usually will be searching for a reason why God would not do it. One answer I got is he thinks it was not necessary!:eek: So, I asked, why do you think it is not necessary? So you think you are wiser and have more wisdom than God? Aren’t you then questioning God’s wisdom? Usually, when they cannot find any retort to this, their only reply is " it is not in the Bible"…So we are back to SS again.
 
Just adding one more pointers for those questioning this…I have asked some protestants against the IC, if thy think God can do it—that is immaculately concieve Mary? Their answer is usually yes, otherwise, they are limiting God, which they will not do.

Then follow up with: If God can do it, then why do you think He did not do it? They usually will be searching for a reason why God would not do it. One answer I got is he thinks it was not necessary!:eek: So, I asked, why do you think it is not necessary? So you think you are wiser and have more wisdom than God? Aren’t you then questioning God’s wisdom? Usually, when they cannot find any retort to this, their only reply is " it is not in the Bible"…So we are back to SS again.
Well take point(s) pablope!:clapping::clapping:
 
Just adding one more pointers for those questioning this…I have asked some protestants against the IC, if thy think God can do it—that is immaculately concieve Mary? Their answer is usually yes, otherwise, they are limiting God, which they will not do.

Then follow up with: If God can do it, then why do you think He did not do it? They usually will be searching for a reason why God would not do it. One answer I got is he thinks it was not necessary!:eek: So, I asked, why do you think it is not necessary? So you think you are wiser and have more wisdom than God? Aren’t you then questioning God’s wisdom? Usually, when they cannot find any retort to this, their only reply is " it is not in the Bible"…So we are back to SS again.
In all eternity God ever did anything that was not deliberate and was not completely thought out? Doesn’t He just “know” everything? Can He can make mistakes? As for myself, I have to answer absolutely NO! How can perfection itself make mistakes?
As Catholics we believe that we must be sinless and have satisfied all temporal punishment for our sins in this life before we can be admitted in into His Presence and partake of that heavenly banquet with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (And what is the primary reason for the existence of Purgatory?). This is because sin cannot ever be in the presence of God in Heaven.

And, in the case of Mary (remember “Hail, full of Grace”), God foreordained that she was to be the sinless tabernacle Jesus, both God and Man, would occupy for 9 months as He took on a second and human nature in the ordinary human way.
 
In all eternity God ever did anything that was not deliberate and was not completely thought out? Doesn’t He just “know” everything? Can He can make mistakes? As for myself, I have to answer absolutely NO! How can perfection itself make mistakes?
As Catholics we believe that we must be sinless and have satisfied all temporal punishment for our sins in this life before we can be admitted in into His Presence and partake of that heavenly banquet with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (And what is the primary reason for the existence of Purgatory?). This is because sin cannot ever be in the presence of God in Heaven.

And, in the case of Mary (remember “Hail, full of Grace”), God foreordained that she was to be the sinless tabernacle Jesus, both God and Man, would occupy for 9 months as He took on a second and human nature in the ordinary human way.
👍

This what protestants cannot see, that Mary is equated with the Ark of the Covenant. That is why when I ask why would God not make happen the IC…there is usually…:hmmm:…while i wait for an reply…🍿
 
I did not see, in any of the preceding posts, any mention of why Mary could be and was conceived without sin before Jesus established the Sacrament of Baptism.

Consider this:

Mary was purely human, as human as we are, and as such she was subject to Original Sin without a doubt.

However, Jesus, God Himself, in choosing Mary to be holy tabernacle in which he would take on a complete second human nature in hypostatic union with His Divine Nature, required a human tabernacle absent of any sin.

God, who lives in the ever present Now, seeing, knowing, and existing in all eternity, does not experience time as we humans do, and being able to act both forward and backward in our time as we experience it, Mary was preserved from Original Sin because of the merits of her Divine Son Jesus, who, by His Passion, Death, and Resurrection, that occurred some 45-50(?) or so years after Mary’ conception.
Hi,
Good answer. Here is another based on God’s attributes.

God is ALL Good. There is absolutely no room for any little, tiny, minute, exception to that. Sin is the absence of good. Therefore where sin is God cannot be.

Every soul that is created by God which comes into this world has inheirted the first sin from Adam and Eve, with no exceptions. This means, God’s divine life cannot be in that soul because it is in sin. If it is in sin, which is the absence of good, then there is no way God’s life, the all Good, could be in it. Sin is repugnant to God, for it is the opposite to God.

Because of God’s aversion to all sin, would Mary be in sin when she conceived the all holy, all good, second Person of the blessd Trinity? Would the Father allow his only beloved Person of His Son to be born of a person in sin? Why, when she could be pure as the driven white snow for the Son who is complete purity in Himself? And if she were preserved from sin, she then would be a daughter to the Father in sanctifying grace, who then would say “this is my beloved daughter in whom I am well pleased”. What sort of options are we looking at here? Even in Holy Communion, we are not allowed to receive the Son of God if the first sin has not been eliminated, and how much further is this from carring the Son of God for nine months?​

Behold the Lamb of God, all who eat, all who drink, shall live (hymn)
 
I was taught that not only about the Immaculate Conception but also that Mary was forever Virgin. But I read in Matthew chapter one, verses 24-25 (Catholic Bible) When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home. he had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. In the King James Bible it reads “knew her not until she bore a son, etc”. The Modern Language Bible buts it, " but he had no marital relations with her, etc".

Was Mary for ever virgin?
 
according to catholicism for dummies the immaculate conception refers to the womb of Mary’s MOTHER. God had blessed the womb so Mary would be born without original sin.
 
Cathlotic,

I don’t know if the referenced material is correct, as I do not believe the Church has ever spoken as to how the Immaculate Conception worked.

As Catholics, we must believe, under pain of heresy for not believing, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Whether St. Anne’s “womb” was “blessed” in some way vs. the Holy Spirit intervened at the moment of conception (at the exact moment the sperm penetrated the egg) and prevented original sin from “attaching” to the resulting totipotent zygote, I don’t think any human being knows.
 
I was taught that not only about the Immaculate Conception but also that Mary was forever Virgin. But I read in Matthew chapter one, verses 24-25 (Catholic Bible) When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home. he had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. In the King James Bible it reads “knew her not until she bore a son, etc”. The Modern Language Bible buts it, " but he had no marital relations with her, etc".

Was Mary for ever virgin?
Off topic but yes, Catholic belief is in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Consider the Confetitor which we say during Mass most of the time.

*I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. *

-Tim-
 
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