J
Joe_5859
Guest
:tiphat: We’re here to help.
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S
Salvatore123
Guest
Show these to a protestant . . . but be sure to have “heart paddles” at the ready should heart attach ensue . . .
So much for only Catholics believing Mary to be the Mother of God and immaculately conceived:
Martin Luther:
“She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin.”
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
“Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.”
“Christ, …was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother…She is the true mother of God and bearer of God…Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs. . .just as your son is not two sons…even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.”
“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”
“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. …She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.”
“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace… .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.”
“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother. God is his father.”
“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees…If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.”
Ulrich Zwingli:
“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”
“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.”
“Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin.”
“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”
John Calvin:
“To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son.”
“Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ.”
So much for only Catholics believing Mary to be the Mother of God and immaculately conceived:
Martin Luther:
“She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin.”
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
“Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.”
“Christ, …was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother…She is the true mother of God and bearer of God…Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs. . .just as your son is not two sons…even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.”
“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”
“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. …She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.”
“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace… .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.”
“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother. God is his father.”
“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees…If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.”
Ulrich Zwingli:
“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”
“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.”
“Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin.”
“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”
John Calvin:
“To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son.”
“Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ.”
P
PJM
Guest
My understanding such as it is;
Mary’s Redeemption is a “WAS” and all the rest of us a “WILL BE” [maybe?]
Her Redemption did come through Christ; but in a unique and special way as required by the circumstances. It came before her conception and birth; and was made with the possibility that she COULD HAVE [freewill, intellect and mind] violated it; BUT Never did
God Bless,
Pat
W
WCH
Guest
No, the redemption of all believers is also a “WAS.”My understanding such as it is;
Mary’s Redeemption is a “WAS” and all the rest of us a “WILL BE” [maybe?]
Her Redemption did come through Christ; but in a unique and special way as required by the circumstances. It came before her conception and birth; and was made with the possibility that she COULD HAVE [freewill, intellect and mind] violated it; BUT Never did
God Bless,
Pat
In Ephesians 1:6 you’ll find the only other use of the word charitoo which is used of Mary in Lk 1:28, and of all believers in Eph 1:6 in the Greek “aorist,” or “PAST TENSE.”
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
I agree with WCH but with one condition. As a Catholic, I believed Christ redeemed all of mankind on the cross, which is past tense. But as a Catholic I ALSO believe that in the mass, the grace of Christ’s sacrifice is received by believers still today.My understanding such as it is;
Mary’s Redeemption is a “WAS” and all the rest of us a “WILL BE” [maybe?]
Her Redemption did come through Christ; but in a unique and special way as required by the circumstances. It came before her conception and birth; and was made with the possibility that she COULD HAVE [freewill, intellect and mind] violated it; BUT Never did
God Bless,
Pat
W
WCH
Guest
Most protestants are aware of that.Show these to a protestant . . . but be sure to have “heart paddles” at the ready should heart attach ensue . . .
So much for only Catholics believing Mary to be the Mother of God and immaculately conceived:
Martin Luther:
“She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin.”
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
“Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.”
“Christ, …was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother…She is the true mother of God and bearer of God…Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs. . .just as your son is not two sons…even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.”
“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”
“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. …She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.”
“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace… .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.”
“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother. God is his father.”
“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees…If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.”
Ulrich Zwingli:
“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”
“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.”
“Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin.”
“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”
John Calvin:
“To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son.”
“Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ.”
Those men were all Catholics, and Mary was of no concern to them in the Reformation, but the more important questions concerning salvation were.
S
Salvatore123
Guest
Previous poster said:
“Those men were all Catholics, and Mary was of no concern to them in the Reformation.”
That’s funny . . .
“Those men were all Catholics, and Mary was of no concern to them in the Reformation.”
That’s funny . . .
W
WCH
Guest
You shouldn’t laugh at Mary.
By the way, will you cite all of the reforms concerning Mary that the Reformers demanded of the RC?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Yes, redemption was accomplished once and for all 2000 years ago, and it continues today, and it continues in the future.
As I like to proffer: I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
W
WCH
Guest
That’s so “first century.”
P
PRmerger
Guest
What Bible verses state that salvation deals with the “more important questions”?
Is this a “more important question”: Is there only One God? Or is this a lesser question? How do you know? Please cite Bible verses to support your ability to know if it’s a “more important” or a question of lesser importance.
Is this a “more important question”: was Jesus born of a virgin? Or is this a lesser question? How do you know? Please cite Bible verses to support your ability to know if it’s a “more important” or a question of lesser importance.
W
WCH
Guest
nwrt.
K
kyleskutt
Guest
What Catholics may misconstrue about Martin Luther was that he did not hate the Roman Catholic church or its traditions, he actually loved the church and God so much that wanted to share the truth about the Word of God. Which he stated in his 95 theses. As we know about Luther from history books he branched away from Roman Catholicism, yet he still carried the traditions of mass but did not impose the beliefs for instance, confession to a priest for the forgiveness of sins.
To use Luther as an example towards a protestant Christian would be highly unwise especially if they know their church history.
JUST SAYING!
As for the Mary subject that’s been going on for centuries, to say that she is the “MOTHER” of God would contradict the whole being of His sovereignty. In Luke 1:36 after Gabriel tells Mary about her being used as God’s vessel, she says, “Behold, I am the SERVANT of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”(ESV) In Revelations 1:8 when John sees Christ ascending from the heavens, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” (The beggining and end of the greek alphabet) says the Lord God, “who IS and who WAS and who is to come, the Almighty.” I would suggest that you would continue to read the context after that sentence when John describes his vision of the SON of MAN who we know to be Jesus.
Jesus is fully man and fully God. How can this be? John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” The Word is Christ Jesus.
Now if Jesus is God, and He has no beggining or end how can He have a mother? We know that Mary was his human mother, and a lot of Catholics use what Jesus said to her and John while he was dying on the cross.
Now, let’s go back to the culture of Jesus’s time. Jesus was the first born SON of Mary and Josephs family. He had a cultural duty to take care of His family, as His earthly father was growing older and was unable to fend for the family as provider. As we read throughout the NT we find glimpses of Mary and His family trailing along behind Him (Matthew 12:47) Yes, He Jesus Christ indeed loved Mary deeply that he bestowed upon His step brother John to become the care taker of His mother and family for He was leaving the world physically. (Exodus 20:12, Deut 5:16, John 19:26-27)
Mary needed a savior as well. To believe that she is “full of grace” or can help us in our salvation is complete hypocrisy to the Word of God. Romans 3:10 is a perfect verse to prove that Mary is not as righteous as Catholics believe. " NO ONE is righteous, not even ONE." Besides God, of course.
I urge you then brothers and sisters to delve and study the Word of God. For it is the only way to truly get to know His eternal soveriegnty,holiness and goodness, this is not an argument about religion or who is sovereign or holy. We should already know that. Christ Jesus ALONE is our only hope, our savior, our Almighty, our God. Put your hope and faith in no one else besides HIM, for He is the only way to eteranl life. Amen.
To use Luther as an example towards a protestant Christian would be highly unwise especially if they know their church history.
JUST SAYING!
As for the Mary subject that’s been going on for centuries, to say that she is the “MOTHER” of God would contradict the whole being of His sovereignty. In Luke 1:36 after Gabriel tells Mary about her being used as God’s vessel, she says, “Behold, I am the SERVANT of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”(ESV) In Revelations 1:8 when John sees Christ ascending from the heavens, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” (The beggining and end of the greek alphabet) says the Lord God, “who IS and who WAS and who is to come, the Almighty.” I would suggest that you would continue to read the context after that sentence when John describes his vision of the SON of MAN who we know to be Jesus.
Jesus is fully man and fully God. How can this be? John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” The Word is Christ Jesus.
Now if Jesus is God, and He has no beggining or end how can He have a mother? We know that Mary was his human mother, and a lot of Catholics use what Jesus said to her and John while he was dying on the cross.
Now, let’s go back to the culture of Jesus’s time. Jesus was the first born SON of Mary and Josephs family. He had a cultural duty to take care of His family, as His earthly father was growing older and was unable to fend for the family as provider. As we read throughout the NT we find glimpses of Mary and His family trailing along behind Him (Matthew 12:47) Yes, He Jesus Christ indeed loved Mary deeply that he bestowed upon His step brother John to become the care taker of His mother and family for He was leaving the world physically. (Exodus 20:12, Deut 5:16, John 19:26-27)
Mary needed a savior as well. To believe that she is “full of grace” or can help us in our salvation is complete hypocrisy to the Word of God. Romans 3:10 is a perfect verse to prove that Mary is not as righteous as Catholics believe. " NO ONE is righteous, not even ONE." Besides God, of course.
I urge you then brothers and sisters to delve and study the Word of God. For it is the only way to truly get to know His eternal soveriegnty,holiness and goodness, this is not an argument about religion or who is sovereign or holy. We should already know that. Christ Jesus ALONE is our only hope, our savior, our Almighty, our God. Put your hope and faith in no one else besides HIM, for He is the only way to eteranl life. Amen.
S
Salvatore123
Guest
WCH:
You said (to me): "You shouldn’t laugh at Mary. By the way, will you cite all of the reforms concerning Mary that the Reformers demanded of the RC?
Anyone with an elementary school education would not interpret what I said as “laughing at Mary”, and you know that. I was laughing at your comment that the three protestant revolters were “really Catholics”. Now THAT’s funny . . .
As far as “citing reforms” regarding Mary - I don’t need to cite anything. Mary occupies the same place back then as she does today: she was immaculately conceived and gave birth as a virgin to the Son of God. If anyone wants to tempt their own fate by mocking Mary (and believe me - I have heard my share over the years from protestants who, for some reason, cannot find ANYONE ELSE, upon whom to heap their vile remarks), be my guest . . . but one day, the mocker will answer to Jesus when asked: “Why did you mock my mother?”
kyleskutt:
You said in relevant part: “to say that she is the “MOTHER” of God would contradict the whole being of His sovereignty.”
No, saying that Mary was the Mother of God does not contradict one thing. If one accepts the dogma of the Holy Trinity, that one of the three persons in one God-head was Jesus Christ, the God incarnate was Jesus, and that Jesus became fully man and was born of a woman, then it is perfectly logical and not contradictory of anything to say that Mary was the mother of God.
Mary was not the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. Mary was mother of God the Son. To deny that is to deny the fact that Jesus was born of Mary.
It is really that simple.
You said (to me): "You shouldn’t laugh at Mary. By the way, will you cite all of the reforms concerning Mary that the Reformers demanded of the RC?
Anyone with an elementary school education would not interpret what I said as “laughing at Mary”, and you know that. I was laughing at your comment that the three protestant revolters were “really Catholics”. Now THAT’s funny . . .
As far as “citing reforms” regarding Mary - I don’t need to cite anything. Mary occupies the same place back then as she does today: she was immaculately conceived and gave birth as a virgin to the Son of God. If anyone wants to tempt their own fate by mocking Mary (and believe me - I have heard my share over the years from protestants who, for some reason, cannot find ANYONE ELSE, upon whom to heap their vile remarks), be my guest . . . but one day, the mocker will answer to Jesus when asked: “Why did you mock my mother?”
kyleskutt:
You said in relevant part: “to say that she is the “MOTHER” of God would contradict the whole being of His sovereignty.”
No, saying that Mary was the Mother of God does not contradict one thing. If one accepts the dogma of the Holy Trinity, that one of the three persons in one God-head was Jesus Christ, the God incarnate was Jesus, and that Jesus became fully man and was born of a woman, then it is perfectly logical and not contradictory of anything to say that Mary was the mother of God.
Mary was not the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. Mary was mother of God the Son. To deny that is to deny the fact that Jesus was born of Mary.
It is really that simple.
P
PJM
Guest
So then everyone get’s to heaven? No judgment based on how one freely chooses to live one’s life?
I don’t think so my friend.It’s nice you know the Greek but PERHAPS better to understand the Teaching.
Love and prayers,
Pat
W
WCH
Guest
You’re in denial.
They were Catholic. Read some history.
The question wasn’t, "do you need to cite anything concerning the Reformers demands for reform concerning Marian doctrine," but a simple request that you do so in order that I might prove that part of my point.
Thus far, you haven’t done that. My conclusion is you can’t.
Indeed.
G
guanophore
Guest
PR’s question is most certainly worth replying to, WCH. It is another conundrum faced by Sola Scripturists. You are here stymied by yet another false doctrine that was invented during the reformation. The premise of SS is that everything that is necessary to salvation is found in the Scirptures. You could answer PR’s question, but you would have to use extrabiblical sources to do so, which would then prove that SS is false.
On the other hand, you are right in avoiding questions like this, because approaching them with any degree of intellectual honesty would bring your whole theological underpinnings into question also.
Your classification of it as “not worth replying to” shows that you are not willing to examine your beliefs with intellectual integrity.
W
WCH
Guest
Then by all means, guanophore, reply to her post.
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