Immaculate Conception Readings confusing

  • Thread starter Thread starter CatholicDR
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
When Zachariah questions Gabriel, he is struck dumb, because he is questioning his metaphysical superior. When Mary asks a question, the angel answers her, because she, being the Immaculately Conceived Queen of the Angels, has the right to ask questions of the Angels.
Or it’s merely becuase of HOW Mary asks the question.

Zechariah says 'How shall I know this?" He’s a priest who surely knows the story of Samson, Isaac, etc.

Mary, on the other hand says, “How will this happen?” This is something unheard of. Of anything Mary is trying to understand, not being unbelieving.
 
The two don’t conflict.
Depends upon the kind of “fear” you are alluding to.

If Mary was frightened (She wasn’t but if She was) it would be a sin.

But if The Blessed Virgin had a filial fear of the Lord, that is NOT a sin.

.
Zechariah says 'How shall I know this?"
Yes.

Zechariah doubted and was probably frightened too.

.
Of anything Mary is trying to understand, not being unbelieving.
That’s absolutely right.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was not unbelieving.

We know that from the context of the text.
We also know it a little later as the Holy spirit Himself tells us through Elizabeth in the Hill Country at her’s and Zechariah’s home.
LUKE 1:39-42, 44 39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40 and she entered the house of Zechari′ah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! . . . .
. . . . 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” . . .
 
Last edited:
It doesn’t really seem to indicate that in the text though. They both ask the angel a question. It doesn’t seem to indicate that Mary asks with a faithful sort of expression, while Zechariah asks with a doubting tone of voice.

And besides, Church teaching is the lens by which we interpret Scripture, not the other way around. The consistent teaching of the Church has been that Mary was Immaculately Conceived. That explains why this passage plays out the way it does.
 
It doesn’t really seem to indicate that in the text though.
It doesn’t, until you take into account that the angel’s appearance to Zechariah and Mary mirror other announcements about the birth of important figures in the Old Testament and other angelic visitations.

And remember Gabriel’s message after Zechariah spoke.

“You will be struck dumb and unable to speak, because you did not believe my words.”

And your point would actually undermine the Immaculate Conception. It implies Mary had a lack of faith.
 
Mary mirror other announcements about the birth of important figures in the Old Testament and other angelic visitations.
At the risk of being picky, I would call it more than a “mirror” (although there IS a dimension of that too), I would call it a fulfillment of those Old Testament encounters.
 
“You will be struck dumb and unable to speak, because you did not believe my words .”

And your point would actually undermine the Immaculate Conception. It implies Mary had a lack of faith.
Please explain how my point implies the opposite of what my point is.
 
Please explain how my point implies the opposite of what my point is.
Your point that the Angel let Mary slide with the question because of her being the Mother of God implies Mary had a lack of faith. Simple as that.
 
I’m really not sure how it implies that. That doesn’t make any sense.

Mary is Mother of God and Immaculately Conceived. The angel isn’t “letting her slide,” he’s being subordinate to her. She outranks him in the great chain of being. Zechariah does not. He’s questioning his ontological superior and is struck dumb. He’s not supposed to be questioning. Mary is allowed to seek clarification. Just as I don’t belie a lack of faith in the Immaculate Conception by asking you to clarify your point, neither does Mary belie a lack of faith by asking the angel to explain himself.
 
The good fear discussed in just some of the CCC citations . . . .

.
CCC 1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord . They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David. They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.
.
CCC 2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.
.
CCC 2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: “I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” The first word contains the first commandment of the Law:
"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God’s first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.
.
CCC 2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
 
Last edited:
“Fear Him who can kill both body and soul in Gehenna, yes fear Him!”
He’s talking about God.

This is talking about people condemning themselves and God having the power to give them their way. God allows them to go to Hell.

satan can’t kill both body and soul.
CCC 2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.
.
CCC 2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
 
Last edited:
So while God doesn’t antecedently want anyone to perish, as a consequence of His Law He damns the unjust.
So what?

This is irrelevant in filial “fear” of the Lord (which is good) vrs. having “frightened-fear” of someone or something (which is bad) else which is a sin.
 
Last edited:
So going against Jesus’ words?
Are you serious?

Are you trying to say if people are not frightened of things other than God, they are sinning??

Pefect love casts out ALL fear in that sinful sense.

I don’t know for sure what you are attempting to say, but if it looks like I think it does, that is not Catholic teaching.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top