Immaculate Conception

[PRmerger]

That was a joke!

I see you do that often when you can’t answer the question.

So how about if you just answer: what is the correct interval that can be had for a dogma to be considered legitimate?

And please back up your claim with Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll go over all that later, for now don’t you think some Catholics go overboard w/Mary, to the point where the lines between veneration and worship are so blurred that they become virtually indistinguishable, and perhaps that is way some Protestants have gone to the other extreme and fear showing her the honor due?

While I’m not aware of any processions held in honor of Luther or Calvin, some due seem to venerate them, and while their works are not held as scripture, they are often used as a means to interpret them…

Sure, some Catholics may go over-board.

Just like some of your church members may go overboard with veneration of the Bible, where the lines between veneration and bibliolatry are so blurred that they become virtually indistinguishable.

 

[Fragile]

I don’t know, it’s something I’d have to look into, no doubt it will take some time to find an acceptable answer. (referring to the duration/dogma issue)

 

[Fragile]

Sure, some Catholics may go over-board.

Just like some of your church members may go overboard with veneration of the Bible, where the lines between veneration and bibliolatry are so blurred that they become virtually indistinguishable.

“When we approach the scriptures, we should do so as if we were approaching God Himself” --John Calvin

Don’t have a problem w/that, since God said He would instruct those who “tremble at His Word.”

 

[PRmerger]

“When we approach the scriptures, we should do so as if we were approaching God Himself” --John Calvin

God is not a book, no matter how holy.

Don’t have a problem w/that, since God said He would instruct those who “tremble at His Word.”

I tremble at the words of John Calvin, so much do they border on bibliolatry!

 

[Fragile]

You are missing the point and context of that statement, you don’t “worship the bible”, but you come to the Word in humility and reverence, expecting God Himself to speak to and instruct you. Which is something I’ve heard Fr. Larry Richards say as much, as well as other Catholic bible teachers. In other words, you don’t come to the bible w/your beer and chips as if you were reading any novel!

 

[Cat_Herder]

Don’t have a problem w/that, since God said He would instruct those who “tremble at His Word.”

Except that nowhere does the Bible say that it is the “Word of God” (or even what books should be in the Bible). The closest you get is “inspired by God” in 2 Tim 3:16-17, but it doesn’t mean what you want it to mean. (Why?)

 

[PRmerger]

You are missing the point and context of that statement, you don’t “worship the bible”, but you come to the Word in humility and reverence, expecting God Himself to speak to and instruct you. Which is something I’ve heard Fr. Larry Richards say as much, as well as other Catholic bible teachers. In other words, you don’t come to the bible w/your beer and chips as if you were reading any novel!

Interesting. You can charge me with misinterpreting someone’s attitude towards the Bible (“it’s not worship of the Bible, PR! You are misunderstanding what they are doing and saying about the Bible!”)

And yet you are standing by your story that someone’s attitude towards Mary ought to be quite clear that it is not worship…

why the double standard?

 

[Fragile]

I never said that all Catholics worship Mary, and I concede that is is forbidden by the Church, what I said was the hyper veneration makes it hard at times to distinguish the two.

 

[po18guy]

Not alone and in a vacuum, the fact that this is nowhere in scripture, either explicit nor implicit should be enough to call into question this teaching.

Where does scripture claim that it is complete, and that revelation lies nowhere else? Rather, it tells you specifically quite the opposite. This is the snare of the man-made tradition of bible alone. As well, if something is only implicit (trinity) in scripture, it requires extra-biblical explanation. Who does that?

 

[po18guy]

I never said that all Catholics worship Mary, and I concede that is is forbidden by the Church, what I said was the hyper veneration makes it hard at times to distinguish the two.

Remember that Jesus honored her first, by creating her specifically to be His mother. We are following the Lord here. What a shame, those who do not.

 

[PRmerger]

I never said that all Catholics worship Mary, and I concede that is is forbidden by the Church, what I said was the hyper veneration makes it hard at times to distinguish the two.

And what do you say to this: hyper-veneration of the bible makes it hard at times to distinguish bibliolatry from just plain veneration of a holy book?

 

[Fragile]

And what do you say to this: hyper-veneration of the bible makes it hard at times to distinguish bibliolatry from just plain veneration of a holy book?

I agree that some do, they can’t tie their own shows w/out chapter and verse!

 

[stewstew03]

I see you do that often when you can’t answer the question.

So how about if you just answer: what is the correct interval that can be had for a dogma to be considered legitimate?

And please back up your claim with Scripture.

“Come on - after 400 years, now you tell me the Gnostic gospels are uninspired?”
–Fragile’s ancestors after Carthage

 

[stewstew03]

I agree that some do, they can’t tie their own shows w/out chapter and verse!

You’ve been given plenty of evidence here and here, but haven’t actually responded to any of the scriptures. Perhaps it’s a daunting task, so let’s just focus on one verse:

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

You would agree that the woman in this verse is Mary, and that her seed is Jesus, yes?

:bible1:

 

[Fragile]

I’m a little busy now, have a life outside the web…

 

[po18guy]

And what do you say to this: hyper-veneration of the bible makes it hard at times to distinguish bibliolatry from just plain veneration of a holy book?

Lacking the Holy Eucharist, some bible denominations have seemingly come to view the printed word as the true presence of Christ. Bolding mine.

From the preface of the 1975 “The Open Bible” (Thomas Nelson, Inc. Publishers)

According to Dr. Wilber M. Smith,

1. The Bible discovers and convicts us of sin.
2. The Bible helps cleanse us from the pollutions of sin.
3. The Bible imparts strength.
4. The Bible instructs us in what we are to do.
5. The Bible provides us with a sword for victory over sin.
6. The Bible makes our lives fruitful.
7. The Bible gives us power to pray.

Is it not the Holy Spirit Who does this? Are these not human, or even deific traits that are ascribed to a printed page? Fearfully close to idolatry, but what else can you do when you have no Eucharist?

 

[PRmerger]

“Come on - after 400 years, now you tell me the Gnostic gospels are uninspired?”
–Fragile’s ancestors after Carthage

 

[PRmerger]

Lacking the Holy Eucharist, some bible denominations have seemingly come to view the printed word as the true presence of Christ. Bolding mine.

From the preface of the 1975 “The Open Bible” (Thomas Nelson, Inc. Publishers)

According to Dr. Wilber M. Smith,

Wow. Just wow. And there are those who think Catholics are freaky for kneeling before statues…

This anthropomorphizing of a book, no matter how holy, is the result, as you say, of not having the Eucharist. You got that right. :sad_yes:

 

[Fragile]

Some of you seem to think the bible is just a book like any other, to the contrary, it is “alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword, able to pierce and divide, revealing the thoughts and intents of the heart” So yes, I believe the bible is fully capable, and does all those things listed there.