Immaculate Conception

[Luth123]

I’m trying to understand the Catholic view concerning the Immaculate Conception.

When I first heard the words I though we’ll of course it was … she was the mother of Jesus. It was not until years later I researched it that I realized it was referring to Mary’s conception not Jesus’ .

So I just don’t see irrefutable evidence in the Bible to support this or a sinless Mary. The only reference states “full of grace”. Many people are full of grace and yet at a later time commit sins. Also contributing to the confusion the Catholic and KJV versions clearly show a varied translation of " kecharitomene".

Also many women are “blessed among other women”…Mother Teresa, the women working at local soup kitchen, female pastors and even the millions of dedicated moms.

I just don’t understand all the emphasis on Mary. Mary is part of the Christian story and I don’t mean to take her out of her rightful place. I don’t mind a side alter devoted to Mary or saints for intercessory prayer, but Christ and the cross should be prominent on the main alter. Christianity is about Christ and his message.

Below is the Bible verse referenced above:

RSVCE: translates kecharitomene as “full of grace”
And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you! – Luke 1:28

KJV: translates kecharitomene as highly favored
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women. – Luke 1:28

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It is devotion to the Incarnation. We honor the blessed Virgin. Even Luther struggled with his instinct affirming the immaculate conception of Mary and truly believed the Mother of God was assumed into heaven.

 

[Bklynguy]

I’m trying to understand the Catholic view concerning the Immaculate Conception.

When I first heard the words I though we’ll of course it was … she was the mother of Jesus. It was not until years later I researched it that I realized it was referring to Mary’s conception not Jesus’ .

So I just don’t see irrefutable evidence in the Bible to support this or a sinless Mary. The only reference states “full of grace”. Many people are full of grace and yet at a later time commit sins. Also contributing to the confusion the Catholic and KJV versions clearly show a varied translation of " kecharitomene".

Also many women are “blessed among other women”…Mother Teresa, the women working at local soup kitchen, female pastors and even the millions of dedicated moms.

I just don’t understand all the emphasis on Mary. Mary is part of the Christian story and I don’t mean to take her out of her rightful place. I don’t mind a side alter devoted to Mary or saints for intercessory prayer, but Christ and the cross should be prominent on the main alter. Christianity is about Christ and his message.

Below is the Bible verse referenced above:

RSVCE: translates kecharitomene as “full of grace”
And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you! – Luke 1:28

KJV: translates kecharitomene as highly favored
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women. – Luke 1:28

You won’t find it explicitly spelled out in Scripture. As you know, Catholics don’t define their faith by only Scripture. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. You probably recall passages in the Old Testament where the Ark of the Covenant was so protected that it could not be defiled–in fact, in the book of Samuel, Uzzah was struck dead for touching the Ark. It logically follows that whoever would bring the second person of the Blessed Trinity in human form into this world would also be undefiled.

 

[Luth123]

You won’t find it explicitly spelled out in Scripture. As you know, Catholics don’t define their faith by only Scripture. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. You probably recall passages in the Old Testament where the Ark of the Covenant was so protected that it could not be defiled–in fact, in the book of Samuel, Uzzah was struck dead for touching the Ark. It logically follows that whoever would bring the second person of the Blessed Trinity in human form into this world would also be undefiled.

Much thanks for your reply.

Yes I’m learning Catholic tradition is generally the justification when not covered by scripture.

The OT reference is interesting, I have not read that before. That makes sense regardless OT references are thin at best since Christians are always able to say that was a separate covenant like the justification not following Jews laws.

 

[MartinJordan]

I’m trying to understand the Catholic view concerning the Immaculate Conception.

When I first heard the words I though we’ll of course it was … she was the mother of Jesus. It was not until years later I researched it that I realized it was referring to Mary’s conception not Jesus’ .

So I just don’t see irrefutable evidence in the Bible to support this or a sinless Mary. The only reference states “full of grace”. Many people are full of grace and yet at a later time commit sins. Also contributing to the confusion the Catholic and KJV versions clearly show a varied translation of " kecharitomene".

There is a difference between full of grace and filled with grace. I believe you are referring to the latter.

Also many women are “blessed among other women”…Mother Teresa, the women working at local soup kitchen, female pastors and even the millions of dedicated moms.

Which one of these carried and nourished the body and blood of Christ for 9 months literally?

Below is the Bible verse referenced above:

RSVCE: translates kecharitomene as “full of grace”
And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you! – Luke 1:28

KJV: translates kecharitomene as highly favored
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women. – Luke 1:28

Let’s start with whether the KJV Bible was the Bible which was agreed on by Council of Carthage A.D. 397

Or pls refer to this:
‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6 . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).
*

MJ

 

[bsroufek]

Much thanks for your reply.

Yes I’m learning Catholic tradition is generally the justification when not covered by scripture.

Actually, the Pope at the time sent out a letter, as I understand, to many bishops asking their opinion about the matter of the Immaculate Conception.

I also understand that the replies were unanimous in affirming it. So an infallible dogma was made by the Pope concerning the Immaculate Conception. So it’s not just tradition, but a universally held Church Doctrine.

You can look this infallible statement up on the web easily to verify what I’m saying.

 

[EIF5A]

I’m still bothered by the verse “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Would people back then have understood that to mean everyone but the Virgin Mary?

 

[bsroufek]

I’m still bothered by the verse “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Would people back then have understood that to mean everyone but the Virgin Mary?

Divine Revelation is a continuous and ongoing thing. I don’t think Paul knew that Mary was conceived without sin, but it was revealed by the Holy Spirit in later times.

Not everything was known from the beginning, but all that was necessary at the time was.

 

[bzkoss236]

You can also go all the way back to Genesis when God tells the serpent, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.” And then goes on to talk about biting at heels and stepping on heads.

This can be seen as a foreshadowing of Mary and Jesus. And if Mary were not sinless, then there wouldn’t be any enmity between evil and her. Just a thought.

Also, to further the Ark of the New Covenant references, the Ark was also made of the purest materials, so too would Mary, if she is the New Ark.

Also, as was mentioned. Luther himself, even though he struggled with it, like I did for a time, he too believed in the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary.

Also, you may have heard of the Evangelum of James. And while it isn’t Sacred Scripture, it can give us insight as to the beliefs of the time. This book is also where we get the names of Mary’s parents, but it also speaks of how her parents struggled to have children, and then they were granted the gift of Mary and committed her to work in the Temple, which would attribute to her avoiding sin and remaining a virgin, as those women who worked in the temple were (all I believe) consecrated virgins, which can be attributed to her not having any children of her own, with the exception of Jesus.

Anyways, I believe there are also other references in scripture too that I can’t think of at the moment.

 

[BiffRuffle]

I’m still bothered by the verse “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Would people back then have understood that to mean everyone but the Virgin Mary?

Paul is quoting from the Old Testament, specifically, Psalm 14 and 53. In both, it refers to the foolish, or the Godless. Clearly, Mary is neither a fool or Godless.

 

[aemcpa]

So I just don’t see irrefutable evidence in the Bible to support this or a sinless Mary.

Do you see irrefutable evidence for sola scriptura or sola fide in the Bible? What can be considered “irrefutable” in a Protestant worldview in which every Christian is his own Pope?

 

[berk60]

Mary said in Luke 1:47 that God is her savior just like He is for every other human being. Mary was a person as we all are and needed Christ death to redeem her also.

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

 

[aemcpa]

Mary said in Luke 1:47 that God is her savior just like He is for every other human being. Mary was a person as we all are and needed Christ death to redeem her also.

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

Man, if only you had gotten to Pius IX before he defined the Immaculate Conception. Oh, wait…

“The most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

The Church has always taught that Mary was in need of Christ as her Savior.

 

[MartinJordan]

Paul is quoting from the Old Testament, specifically, Psalm 14 and 53. In both, it refers to the foolish, or the Godless. Clearly, Mary is neither a fool or Godless.

This!

MJ

 

[bzkoss236]

Man, if only you had gotten to Pius IX before he defined the Immaculate Conception. Oh, wait…

“The most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

The Church has always taught that Mary was in need of Christ as her Savior.

Right! It is God that made her special, to prepare her for bearing His Son. It was nothing that she could have done without God or Christ.

 

[berk60]

Man, if only you had gotten to Pius IX before he defined the Immaculate Conception. Oh, wait…

“The most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

The Church has always taught that Mary was in need of Christ as her Savior.

Why has the church always taught that Mary was in need of Christ as her Savior if she never sinned. Christ died to be a propitiation for sin and He paid the penality for our sin and satisfied the debt so the sinner could be reconciled to God.

 

[EIF5A]

So Mary was preserved from sin because she was to bear Christ…so in essence, Christ is still her Savior because without the necessity to bear Christ, she would just be an ordinary human…?

 

[aemcpa]

Right! It is God that made her special, to prepare her for bearing His Son. It was nothing that she could have done without God or Christ.

Amen.

 

[MartinJordan]

Why has the church always taught that Mary was in need of Christ as her Savior if she never sinned. Christ died to be a propitiation for sin and He paid the penality for our sin and satisfied the debt so the sinner could be reconciled to God.

If there is a “teaching” which “church” are you referring to?

MJ

 

[berk60]

" If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 John 1:7-9

We make God a liar by saying that besides Jesus there was a human being who was sinless.

The Bible does proclaim Jesus as being sinless.

Hebrews 4:15 reads: “For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin”. And 1 Peter 2:22 - “He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth”.

Jesus remained sinless His entire human life because He is God.