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MartinJordan
Guest
And keep in mind that God still needed her **Yes **and left it entirely her choice.
This would only mean Mary was sinless.
MJ
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This would only mean Mary was sinless.
MJ
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berk60
Guest
I was quoting what was originally posted by aemcpa were it was stated “The Church has always taught that Mary was in need of Christ as her Savior.” So aemcpa will have to answer your question.
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bsroufek
Guest
Again, read the quote from Pius IX on WHY Mary is seen as being conceived without sin.
She was preserved from sin BOTH by God AND by her own response to God’s grace throughout her life. She was “full of grace” and, thus, able to avoid all sin.
She was preserved from sin BOTH by God AND by her own response to God’s grace throughout her life. She was “full of grace” and, thus, able to avoid all sin.
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MartinJordan
Guest
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aemcpa
Guest
God preserved Mary from original sin because God chose to preserve Mary from original sin. Mary had free will to commit actual sin but never did commit a sin. It was by the infinite merits of the passion and death of Christ, applied to Mary’s soul in the very act of the creation of that soul, that Mary was saved from sin by preservation. It is sufficient to say that Mary would have been stained with original sin had Christ’s saving work on the Cross not been applied to her soul, because it is not necessary that any human being ever commit an actual sin. Every sin is an act of the will. But we all need to be saved from original sin.
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EIF5A
Guest
Not sure I follow this logic…
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bsroufek
Guest
John, Paul and the Apostles generally were unaware of Mary’s “singular” condition, but we have been made aware of it by revelation, as Pius IX stated.
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MartinJordan
Guest
If she ever felt she had sinned, would she agree to carry the Son Of God the Savior of the World?
MJ
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berk60
Guest
So what your saying is that Mary was kind of pre-saved before she was born by Jesus death on the cross before He actually came and died on the cross.
I can see the logic that the Church felt Mary had to be born without original sin because Jesus is God. But why must Mary have lived her entire life sinless?
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berk60
Guest
You would think that with such great forefathers as the Apostle John and Paul that God would have let them in on that revelation also. Especially in that critical time as what they said was being put in the Bible.
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EIF5A
Guest
I don’t know. But if she ever told a white lie, couldn’t she have been purified and cleansed by God before bearing Christ?
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Luth123
Guest
Just for the record I never mentioned sola scriptura. I just asked if there is any Biblical evidence.
But to answer your question yes sola scriptura is implied even in the RSVCE. Since the Catholic church refuses to make the RSVCE Bible publicly available I have to reference it from someone from China so I hope it’s correct: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
See jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/104john.html#14
Since Jesus is physically no longer walking on this earth our translated scripture is the only path to Father. This is basis for the concept of sola scriptura,
Irrefutable would include a statement like “Mary with out sin” or “sinless Mary”. The Greek translation I mentioned has many possible interpretations which is clearly not irrefutable.
In 1040 when most common people did not read or write a Pope/clergy was needed to interpret. Now most educated people can read/research the Bible/religion themselves and make an educated and/or faith based decision.
Most Protestants except non-denominational have a hierarchy and publicly available creeds and liturgies. Protestants are just not arrogant enough to believe their head of the hierarchy is infallible. He is still only man. He is not divine like Jesus.
By today’s standards Martin Luther would be consider raving anti-Semite psychopath and Pope Leo would have severed most of his life in prison for money laundering. You can not honestly believe any man besides Christ himself was ever infallible?
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bsroufek
Guest
You suppose that God revealed everything there is to know to the Apostles, leaving no room for further Divine Revelation to the Church.
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MartinJordan
Guest
People didn’t question Mary’s sinlessness then. It is only as time went on, non-believers and doubters crept up and the Church needed to defend our Blessed Mother. Jesus honoured his Mother, so should we.
MJ
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Luth123
Guest
Certainly no if one believes the Gospel of Mary is an accurate account.
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bsroufek
Guest
Your answer is hard to make sense from. The Gospel of Mary is that of Mary Magdalene, I suppose? Jesus’ mother didn’t write a Gospel, as far as I know, except for her contribution to the Gospel of Luke, which is significant.
You suggested that the Apostles must have known Mary was sinless, if she were, as though they knew everything there is to know. I don’t agree.
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aemcpa
Guest
Essentially, yes.
The Church doesn’t say she “had” to be born without original sin, only that she was.
The Church doesn’t say she “must have” lived her entire life sinless, only that she did.
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Luth123
Guest
It’s not an issue of not honoring Jesus’s mother. She will always be remembered as a mother figure for Christianity even in Protestant denominations. It’s an issue of the amount of focus given to Mary when the main focus should be Jesus and his message.
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aemcpa
Guest
That divine revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle is actually a dogma of the Church, so his supposition is correct.
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bsroufek
Guest
The Holy Spirit continues leading the Church to all truth even today. We are not abandoned. It is not a dogma of the Church that divine revelatoin ended with the Apostles. Not at all.
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