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Rascalking
Guest
I did read the whole thread.
I still don’t understand or agree with it.
I still don’t understand or agree with it.
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purplesunshine
Guest
How about this
Do you believe in the trinity?
God the father and god the son from which a third proceedes god the holy spirit.
Family is ment to replicate that. From the man and the woman comes the child. You can’t say “when I feel like it” or “when I’m ready”
and you admitted you haven’t tried therepy which may be a valuable option
look at other threads where a man is denying a woman a child or visa versa. They END IN ANNULMENT beucase for a true marriage to work one has to be competlely given to another.
Marriage isn’t about a man and a woman. God must be the center…and if you’re telling God that His decisions wouldn’t work for you than nothing marriage or otherwise will ever work.
Do you believe in the trinity?
God the father and god the son from which a third proceedes god the holy spirit.
Family is ment to replicate that. From the man and the woman comes the child. You can’t say “when I feel like it” or “when I’m ready”
and you admitted you haven’t tried therepy which may be a valuable option
look at other threads where a man is denying a woman a child or visa versa. They END IN ANNULMENT beucase for a true marriage to work one has to be competlely given to another.
Marriage isn’t about a man and a woman. God must be the center…and if you’re telling God that His decisions wouldn’t work for you than nothing marriage or otherwise will ever work.
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Right here Rascalking from the CCC:
The openness to fertility
1652
"By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162
Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163
((Thank you Em_in_FL))
The openness to fertility
1652
"By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162
Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163
((Thank you Em_in_FL))
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Rascalking
Guest
lil_flower-
I’ve read that part before. Thanks.
I don’t have a dog in the fight, no kids right now, and, well, it’s complicated on the lady on front.
I simply have a difficult time understanding and accepting that:
“By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Well I’m so sorry about that. And I will keep you in my prayers. But if it is God’s will that we get married and have children, then let it be done!! (He doesn’t always will it that we have children, you know.) And if something pains you so that it isn’t possible to have children at the time, He understands that and is looking out for you.
Maybe He has different plans for you…and you have to be open to whatever those plans are, especially if it’s having children. Because in this day and age, so many look out for number one and do not think about what God wants. For one, abortion…birth control, etc. We are not God and have no right to decide when life can be created and destroyed.
As for children: Why not want them? They can bring such joy and fulfillment in life. God didn’t make it so that we would be miserable with them, but content.
You and your intentions are in my prayers!
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Rascalking
Guest
Thanks! Same to you!
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dashso40
Guest
You are 23, your whole life?..23 is sooo young, I was a completely different person at 23…I didn’t want kids than either…you have your whole life ahead of you and you may change your mind…people change as they get older…
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flyingfish
Guest
It seems like you are open to life, you want to see therapists and change the way you feel so that you can have children.
If you weren’t, you wouldn’t want to change.
I don’t think God is cruel and wants to punish you for your psychological issues, get married and work on these issues with your husband and God.
Plus, until you work through them, what kind of a mother would you make? If you’re so anxious about it, you might just have an anxiety disorder. And being sick is not an impediment to marriage. Mental illness is also a valid reason to use NFP.
God is not out to get you and ruin your life, this is not something an all-loving God is about.
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budgie2
Guest
Again I don’t know why you’re afraid. However, having children is important in marriage. If my mum had not been pregnant with me and gave birth to me then I would not exist. I’m not putting you under pressure but you have to work with your fiance to find out his feelings if you decided you couldn’t have children. We also have to promise to have children when we get married in the Catholic Church but if there’s a serious reason then the Church could waver.
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entropymom
Guest
If you truly have a pathological fear of babies, children, etc., please do get some form of counseling. Maybe kids and marriage are not your deal in life and that is OK, but children and babies are plentiful and there may be a time when you will have to interact with them (job, church, friend’s kids). Also, you should not be burdened with these fears. It is unfair to you. You deserve to feel at ease. (and not have fingers wagging at you for being a —gasp!!-bad mom—even before you have kids or are married!!)
As for the actual child birth and taking care of babies…yours is will be different. No one will have the exact same experiences as you and truth be told…many women love to make up horror stories about child birth and baby care…It’s is like fishing stories that the men tell.
I am the mother of several great kids and I was never kid person. I never felt the overwhelming drive to have children, but they came anyway. My experience is unique and I treasure my husband and children. Even as babies, I loved my children, but never saw myself as baby-centric—loving everyone’s babies, and baby clothes and keeping up on all of the latest baby gadgetry. I am not a big fan of watching our people’s kids, because I am not in love with babies, but I love my babies. The birthing experience was no piece of cake, but my husband and I did it together and we are closer than ever. I do not wish to repeat the experience, but if it happened, my husband and I could do it again.
Bottom line: open yourself up to a life of no fear and then be open to the fact that you can be a very successful wife and mother even if you are not a “kid person”. You may surprise yourself.
Best wishes!
As for the actual child birth and taking care of babies…yours is will be different. No one will have the exact same experiences as you and truth be told…many women love to make up horror stories about child birth and baby care…It’s is like fishing stories that the men tell.
I am the mother of several great kids and I was never kid person. I never felt the overwhelming drive to have children, but they came anyway. My experience is unique and I treasure my husband and children. Even as babies, I loved my children, but never saw myself as baby-centric—loving everyone’s babies, and baby clothes and keeping up on all of the latest baby gadgetry. I am not a big fan of watching our people’s kids, because I am not in love with babies, but I love my babies. The birthing experience was no piece of cake, but my husband and I did it together and we are closer than ever. I do not wish to repeat the experience, but if it happened, my husband and I could do it again.
Bottom line: open yourself up to a life of no fear and then be open to the fact that you can be a very successful wife and mother even if you are not a “kid person”. You may surprise yourself.
Best wishes!
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entropymom
Guest
Reading through this tread I think that there is a lot of confusion about the “open to life” part that is a part of our Catholic marriages.
What I think should be clarified by the priests is: THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES IN LIFE! When you walk down that aisle and take your vows, you are accepting that you and your spouse may have no children, many children or struggle to have one child. If no children come, we must accept that and change our course (consider adoption, etc). If many children come, well we must accept that too. God and the church do not promise the desired 2 children that has come to be our “society’s norm”.
“Open to life” = accepting any outcome (that is Catholic church approved) and accept that life (esp. married life) does not go according to our “plans”.
Posters: please do not beat up on others because they maybe lukewarm about having children. If is unfair and judgmental. As long as her priest clearly explains what “open to life” means for that couple prior to marriage, than we are in no position to go against the priest’s teachings.
What I think should be clarified by the priests is: THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES IN LIFE! When you walk down that aisle and take your vows, you are accepting that you and your spouse may have no children, many children or struggle to have one child. If no children come, we must accept that and change our course (consider adoption, etc). If many children come, well we must accept that too. God and the church do not promise the desired 2 children that has come to be our “society’s norm”.
“Open to life” = accepting any outcome (that is Catholic church approved) and accept that life (esp. married life) does not go according to our “plans”.
Posters: please do not beat up on others because they maybe lukewarm about having children. If is unfair and judgmental. As long as her priest clearly explains what “open to life” means for that couple prior to marriage, than we are in no position to go against the priest’s teachings.
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mom24boys
Guest
OP, I’m not sure if you have a pathological fear or a normal fear/apathy. It can be normal to not enjoy other people’s babies and to be fearful of childbirth. I’ve never particularly liked other people’s babies… never really want to hold them, etc. But I am ccccraaaaazzzzyyyy about my own. God has created a wonderful hormonal process to bond you to your babies. And when I was pregnant with my first, I saw a graphic childbirth scene and I ended up locked in the bathroom in a heap crying. It was disgusting and not beautiful… I couldn’t believe I was going to have to go through that. (I was your age at the time.) I now have four babies and the last two were born naturally at home. You could say I’ve been able to embrace the birth thing.
Given what I’ve stated above, I don’t think you’ll get over your fear by holding babies and watching childbirth films! You may never feel ready to have kids, but you need to be ready to trust God and trust your husband. Are you ready to do that? Do you think your fear could perhaps be normal? Or do you really think it is pathological?
Given what I’ve stated above, I don’t think you’ll get over your fear by holding babies and watching childbirth films! You may never feel ready to have kids, but you need to be ready to trust God and trust your husband. Are you ready to do that? Do you think your fear could perhaps be normal? Or do you really think it is pathological?
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katillac1
Guest
Thank you all for your advice and encouragement so far.
Haha I think it’s at least borderline pathological. I can’t even look at a pregnant lady without feeling nauseated! I really don’t know anyone who takes it to the extreme like I do.
Anyway, I’ve got time, I’m not engaged. I was just curious because this issue pops up all the time with me and wanted to see other people’s views on it.
Haha I think it’s at least borderline pathological. I can’t even look at a pregnant lady without feeling nauseated! I really don’t know anyone who takes it to the extreme like I do.
Anyway, I’ve got time, I’m not engaged. I was just curious because this issue pops up all the time with me and wanted to see other people’s views on it.
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entropymom
Guest
Katillac1
Relax, many of us share your views and understand that not everyone is baby crazy or think pregnancy is beautiful (I, too do not think that swollen feet and elastic waistlines are beautiful, but that’s me and I have three kids already). You have the right to think whatever you want.
When it comes to marriage, be sure to fully disclose your concerns to your future spouse and your priest. As long as you are willing to be honest with everyone and keep an open mind, that is all that can be asked of you. The rest is up to your future husband after a consultation with the priest.
Best of life to you.
Relax, many of us share your views and understand that not everyone is baby crazy or think pregnancy is beautiful (I, too do not think that swollen feet and elastic waistlines are beautiful, but that’s me and I have three kids already). You have the right to think whatever you want.
When it comes to marriage, be sure to fully disclose your concerns to your future spouse and your priest. As long as you are willing to be honest with everyone and keep an open mind, that is all that can be asked of you. The rest is up to your future husband after a consultation with the priest.
Best of life to you.
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katillac1
Guest
This is just a collection of thoughts that I organized to clear my head. It’s not a response to anybody, not a blog to show that I am right or wrong and isn’t based on any teaching. This is just what I think. Also, note that the situation I’m describing is probably the minority and wouldn’t be this optimistic in real life, but would be possible. It is also exactly how my boyfriend and I see things if we ever were to be engaged. This is open to discussion if you want.
I just don’t understand how children are the purpose of marriage. I’m sure that’s the usual outcome, but why the sole purpose? To me, a marriage is about finding the other person that you love so much that you want to spend and dedicate the rest of your life with them. Someone to walk with you through life’s journey hand in hand with God, so you don’t have to do it alone. If children come and are wanted that’s great, but I don’t see how a marriage is not even recognized if one or both parties have reasons against them. I understand that back in the day, the only reason for marriage was for social and economic concerns and it didn’t make sense for that to happen if children never came about. Now however, marriage is for love, at least in the western world. The order for love and dedication in a marriage is God, then spouse, then kids. The Church should recognize that and realize that. Spouse comes before kids. You can’t spend all your energy, time, and love on children or the marriage will fall apart. Marriage is needed for the children to thrive like God wanted them to. So, spouse always comes first. If a spouse is sacrificing their want of kids, even temporarily, out of love and patience for the needs and feelings of their spouse, that should be smiled upon, not frowned upon. And I’m not talking about purely selfish and trivial feelings. Sometimes there are real health, mental, and other issues that need to be dealt with first. The difference between me and the Church is this. The Church says dealing with those issues and postponing children is ok (through NFP), but should not last forever. Also, if these issues exist prior to marriage, they have to be dealt with before the wedding so that once married, children can be accepted right away if they happen. Otherwise, no valid marriage took place. I believe that the marriage should be allowed to take place and be valid, if the spouse is ok with postponing kids, for awhile, forever or indefinitely. If the spouse is not ok with that, then yes, they should not get married, but not because of children per se, but because they have a serious issue that needs to be ironed out first just like anything else. Therapy to “fix it” is good, but if it doesn’t work, the anti-kid spouse should not be made to feel abnormal, sick, selfish, less worthy, or anything else by their spouse, family or church, especially if their husband or wife accepts and loves them the way they are. People were made the way they were made.
Someday the aversion will most likely change, and how happy the one who had to wait will be on hearing that spouse now wants kids, and the other will not only be thrilled that they are making their spouse happy, but thrilled that the spouse loved them enough to sacrifice, to wait, offering support and patience. Some of you might say that can be flipped around, that the non-kid spouse should sacrifice and have a kid based on love for their significant other. I tell you what, it doesn’t work that way. In the first circumstance, one had real problems to tackle. The spouse is not harmed in waiting. The harm they feel comes in their own selfishness in not caring about their spouse (who comes first) and just focusing on the fact that they want a kid. In the second circumstance, the kid wanting spouse gets the satisfaction of feeling fulfilled with a child, while the other may be feeling stepped on, thought of as a means to an end, used, physically damaged or worse of all mentally damaged. The fear and concerns about babies are instantly escalated by the fact that their issues are now in reality. And they see their spouse as happy about it. In some cases it may be that the anti-kid person realizes they were being silly and becomes overwhelmed with love for hubby and baby, but it also may not happen, and I think that risk is not worth taking.
I want to stress again that these are my own feelings based on a situation in where one person has real problems to tackle, not just being selfish because they want to postpone or never have kids because they want the BMW.
Again, unlike the Church, I extend this into the realm of “it’s ok to never have kids if that is what both spouses feel is right for them” and still have a valid, Godly marriage.
I’m not saying children are not a blessing, they are, but you have to be capable of receiving that blessing as a blessing first. For some people, that can never happen. Should they be doubly punished by not being allowed to marry as well?** Like I said before, feelings usually change after the wedding day, so forbidding marriage to a couple not willing to let kids happen right away or ever doesn’t make sense. By recognizing the marriage, the Church would open the opportunity for a change of heart, and if it doesn’t, then two people still gain by having a loving marriage to one another. Personally, I feel like that would be the more Christ-like way to be.**
P.S. I based this on the fact that this is a nice Catholic couple that is against abortion and contraception. In this situation, NFP would be practiced forever, abortion never considered if a mistake happened.
I just don’t understand how children are the purpose of marriage. I’m sure that’s the usual outcome, but why the sole purpose? To me, a marriage is about finding the other person that you love so much that you want to spend and dedicate the rest of your life with them. Someone to walk with you through life’s journey hand in hand with God, so you don’t have to do it alone. If children come and are wanted that’s great, but I don’t see how a marriage is not even recognized if one or both parties have reasons against them. I understand that back in the day, the only reason for marriage was for social and economic concerns and it didn’t make sense for that to happen if children never came about. Now however, marriage is for love, at least in the western world. The order for love and dedication in a marriage is God, then spouse, then kids. The Church should recognize that and realize that. Spouse comes before kids. You can’t spend all your energy, time, and love on children or the marriage will fall apart. Marriage is needed for the children to thrive like God wanted them to. So, spouse always comes first. If a spouse is sacrificing their want of kids, even temporarily, out of love and patience for the needs and feelings of their spouse, that should be smiled upon, not frowned upon. And I’m not talking about purely selfish and trivial feelings. Sometimes there are real health, mental, and other issues that need to be dealt with first. The difference between me and the Church is this. The Church says dealing with those issues and postponing children is ok (through NFP), but should not last forever. Also, if these issues exist prior to marriage, they have to be dealt with before the wedding so that once married, children can be accepted right away if they happen. Otherwise, no valid marriage took place. I believe that the marriage should be allowed to take place and be valid, if the spouse is ok with postponing kids, for awhile, forever or indefinitely. If the spouse is not ok with that, then yes, they should not get married, but not because of children per se, but because they have a serious issue that needs to be ironed out first just like anything else. Therapy to “fix it” is good, but if it doesn’t work, the anti-kid spouse should not be made to feel abnormal, sick, selfish, less worthy, or anything else by their spouse, family or church, especially if their husband or wife accepts and loves them the way they are. People were made the way they were made.
Someday the aversion will most likely change, and how happy the one who had to wait will be on hearing that spouse now wants kids, and the other will not only be thrilled that they are making their spouse happy, but thrilled that the spouse loved them enough to sacrifice, to wait, offering support and patience. Some of you might say that can be flipped around, that the non-kid spouse should sacrifice and have a kid based on love for their significant other. I tell you what, it doesn’t work that way. In the first circumstance, one had real problems to tackle. The spouse is not harmed in waiting. The harm they feel comes in their own selfishness in not caring about their spouse (who comes first) and just focusing on the fact that they want a kid. In the second circumstance, the kid wanting spouse gets the satisfaction of feeling fulfilled with a child, while the other may be feeling stepped on, thought of as a means to an end, used, physically damaged or worse of all mentally damaged. The fear and concerns about babies are instantly escalated by the fact that their issues are now in reality. And they see their spouse as happy about it. In some cases it may be that the anti-kid person realizes they were being silly and becomes overwhelmed with love for hubby and baby, but it also may not happen, and I think that risk is not worth taking.
I want to stress again that these are my own feelings based on a situation in where one person has real problems to tackle, not just being selfish because they want to postpone or never have kids because they want the BMW.
Again, unlike the Church, I extend this into the realm of “it’s ok to never have kids if that is what both spouses feel is right for them” and still have a valid, Godly marriage.
I’m not saying children are not a blessing, they are, but you have to be capable of receiving that blessing as a blessing first. For some people, that can never happen. Should they be doubly punished by not being allowed to marry as well?** Like I said before, feelings usually change after the wedding day, so forbidding marriage to a couple not willing to let kids happen right away or ever doesn’t make sense. By recognizing the marriage, the Church would open the opportunity for a change of heart, and if it doesn’t, then two people still gain by having a loving marriage to one another. Personally, I feel like that would be the more Christ-like way to be.**
P.S. I based this on the fact that this is a nice Catholic couple that is against abortion and contraception. In this situation, NFP would be practiced forever, abortion never considered if a mistake happened.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
They aren’t the “sole purpose of marriage”…
But the nature of marriage is ORDERED toward the good of the spouses AND the procreation of children.
Catechism blurb…
Yes, but you seem to be wavering on the concept of having a (just/serious/grave) REASON to avoid children… it can’t be *merely *because “you agree you don’t WANT kids”…
Again… another Catechism blurb… I think the 2nd paragraph really speaks to this part of the discussion…
I have to split up my post… more to come…
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Em_in_FL
Guest
See, the problem of using NFP without a (just/serious/grave) REASON, is that it is totally plausible that one may change their mind, like you just mentioned. The entire marriage could fall apart over this issue. If there isn’t a concrete reasoning for using NFP, then it’s just up to the mindset of the individual spouses - how can any conflicts be resolved? If there is a definitive REASON that may or may not become overcome, then the agreement to have children is temporary and you can mutually move forward once that definitive obstacle is overcome. An undefined “opinion” isn’t so clear-cut.
Absolutely the spouse who is “waiting” could be harmed… they EASILY could grow in *bitterness *against the other spouse - tearing down the marriage entirely.
The fact remains that each spouse is unique and independent in their heart and mind. One heart may change and become open to children - if/when that happens, if there is not a mutually agreed upon DEFINITIVE (just/serious/grave) REASON for avoiding children then some serious conflict can arise - causing a total breakdown in the marriage.
At that point you question whether or not the marriage should have happened in the first place.
Marriage isn’t just about 2 people agreeing on certain subjects… it’s about two becoming ONE!
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katillac1
Guest
Hmm interesting.
I have to disagree with the very last part you said though. If one has a change of heart and the other is not at the point, then it goes back to what I said before in supporting your spouse and waiting for their heart to change as well.
Yeah the problem with my post is that defining serious and grave reasons becomes entirely subjective. I think disagreement on that is where problems start. I think the fix to that would be to trust that the reason a spouse gives is serious enough to them. Just because one can see the weakness in a reason doesn’t mean the other does. And that’s where the beauty of marriage comes in. It’s a balance of understanding, communication, support, even education and help. Let’s also not forget that in the case that both did not want kids and now one does, they still agreed prior to marriage that they wouldn’t have kids unless both felt like they could handle it. So if marital trouble starts, the spouse that now wants kids would be extremely selfish in hurrying their spouse to the same conclusion.
But just describing a situation like that strengthens my argument that a couple knowingly entering into marriage without being open to children should be considered validly married. You just proved that people can change! God’s just working one at a time!
I have to disagree with the very last part you said though. If one has a change of heart and the other is not at the point, then it goes back to what I said before in supporting your spouse and waiting for their heart to change as well.
Yeah the problem with my post is that defining serious and grave reasons becomes entirely subjective. I think disagreement on that is where problems start. I think the fix to that would be to trust that the reason a spouse gives is serious enough to them. Just because one can see the weakness in a reason doesn’t mean the other does. And that’s where the beauty of marriage comes in. It’s a balance of understanding, communication, support, even education and help. Let’s also not forget that in the case that both did not want kids and now one does, they still agreed prior to marriage that they wouldn’t have kids unless both felt like they could handle it. So if marital trouble starts, the spouse that now wants kids would be extremely selfish in hurrying their spouse to the same conclusion.
But just describing a situation like that strengthens my argument that a couple knowingly entering into marriage without being open to children should be considered validly married. You just proved that people can change! God’s just working one at a time!
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MariaTheresa
Guest
I think there is a difference in why some people " don’t want kids’ that you are not making clear. Being open to children is one of the two roots purposes of marriage, the other of course is the unitive (sp?) purpose-to be united with another in Christ. To not be open at all simply for the sake of " I don’t want to do the whole kid thing" or something like that does not make a valid reason.
Mental illness, physical illness, inability to have children, waiting until one finishes school or other reasons people delay to then start their families may be justified because people are trying to do their best by the child to give them a good start or are not capable of having a child at that time.
To marry someone who wants children while you do not and they deny themselves children for your sake steals their life from them. Love them enough to let them go.
No one is entitled to marriage. And I don’t believe that a couple who is using NFP and all that it entails coudl be using it successfully if they were not on the same page about marriage, family, children, etc. something to think about.
Mental illness, physical illness, inability to have children, waiting until one finishes school or other reasons people delay to then start their families may be justified because people are trying to do their best by the child to give them a good start or are not capable of having a child at that time.
To marry someone who wants children while you do not and they deny themselves children for your sake steals their life from them. Love them enough to let them go.
No one is entitled to marriage. And I don’t believe that a couple who is using NFP and all that it entails coudl be using it successfully if they were not on the same page about marriage, family, children, etc. something to think about.
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katillac1
Guest
Well you’re definitely entitled to your opinion.
Doesn’t work in my case though I tried talking (in tears) about letting him go find someone that wanted to do all that for him. He told me never to talk like that again. He wanted me, he loved me, children or not. He made it pretty clear that the life would get sucked out him if I left him, not if we never had kids. I guess he likes me
I guess it just depends on the couple.
Doesn’t work in my case though
I tried talking (in tears) about letting him go find someone that wanted to do all that for him. He told me never to talk like that again. He wanted me, he loved me, children or not. He made it pretty clear that the life would get sucked out him if I left him, not if we never had kids. I guess he likes meI guess it just depends on the couple.
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