Immediately open to life?

[icbtih8]

First, let me say that your fears are normal and most women I know have them (myself included). You are young and you might change your mind, or you might not.

While I don’t understand the need to have biological children, I do understand why it is necessary to raise children in the family unit. The need to have biological children is something that I’m praying for discernment.

In Genesis, God said to Adam and Eve be fruitful and multiply. We take this to mean be fruitful and multiply in the faith. This is the basis for our evangelizing mission. It is our duty to spread the Word (St. Francis of Asis said to spread the Word through our actions and if necessary use words).

There is no evangelizing method more powerful than raising children in the Catholic faith. Through them we reach the next generation, not just our own.

What I think you need to do is pray about your vocation so you can choose either married life or religious life. Both require evangelizing except one does it through children (married life) and one does not (religious life).

I hope this helps.

 

[flyingfish]

Hmm interesting.

I have to disagree with the very last part you said though. If one has a change of heart and the other is not at the point, then it goes back to what I said before in supporting your spouse and waiting for their heart to change as well.

Yeah the problem with my post is that defining serious and grave reasons becomes entirely subjective. I think disagreement on that is where problems start. I think the fix to that would be to trust that the reason a spouse gives is serious enough to them. Just because one can see the weakness in a reason doesn’t mean the other does. And that’s where the beauty of marriage comes in. It’s a balance of understanding, communication, support, even education and help. Let’s also not forget that in the case that both did not want kids and now one does, they still agreed prior to marriage that they wouldn’t have kids unless both felt like they could handle it. So if marital trouble starts, the spouse that now wants kids would be extremely selfish in hurrying their spouse to the same conclusion.

But just describing a situation like that strengthens my argument that a couple knowingly entering into marriage without being open to children should be considered validly married. You just proved that people can change! God’s just working one at a time!

If people agree not to have children unless they both feel like they can handle it, they are being open to life.

Feeling like you can’t handle children is a perfect reason to use NFP. Some people give the impression that you are not “open to life” unless you know you can have children and intend to do so as soon as you’re married. That is simply not true. If it were, it would mean that anyone who is too sick to have children, who perhaps takes medication that they need but that seriously interfere with the development of the fetus, who has mental health issues preventing them from having children, who is too poor to have them etc. could not get married.

The Church does not teach this. The Church only asks that you be OPEN to life, not that you start making it the instant you get married. Do you really think the Church is so horrible that they would deny a loving couple marriage because there are mental health issues that make one of them so afraid and feeling as though she can’t handle children?

You can be open to life throughout your marriage, but at the same time have an issue during the course of your entire life that would prevent you from ever having children. The point is that you are open, and prayerful.

God is not cruel, and he is not out to get you. It may be that some of his followers are very harsh and judgmental and will tell you that you are a sinner because you don’t have a large family. But they speak for themselves, not God.

 

[remjsmom76]

Maybe your calling is not to be married but to service to the church instead.

Look all in all its up to you. Fear is just that a mental block that you put there yourself. I dont know what caused you to fear babies, or pregnancies or any of that. I think that when and if you find that very special person you will WANT to have his child. Lord knows when I met my husband I wanted to have kids right away with him, he did to. Thats a whole other post. When you love someone…you do put your fears aside to make that person happy. At least thats was my case.

I did want children, but once I was pregnant, my MIL started telling me I could die givining birth. Its was almost as if she wanted me to just go away. It was scary and I started to have panic attacks. Because of that I did have a very hard labor and they had to put me under cause I was hysterical due to my MIL. Once I came too I saw that it was not bad at all and guess what I now have 4 girls! I would never have thought I would have 4 kids and I still want more!

Another fear was my fear of planes. My husband was in the military. He was sent to Germany. OMG I was scared poopless to say the least!!! I was also pregnant with my 4th child. I didnt know how was going to do it. I tried to find ships that would take me across the ocean but I didnt find any. I HAD TO FLY 9 HOURS across the atlantic ocean!
I did it. I cried, a total stranger, an elderly woman held my hand while my girls were in awe at how planes took off and they loved the flight! I made it and I flew about 5 more times across that ocean again. I got over my fears.

Its like I tell my girls “No one ever did anything by being afraid” My girls are cheerleaders. They are tossed up in the air, caught by other girls on the ground, they flip and flop and do twists in the air. My girls were afraid when they first had to do their backhand springs. They did it and now are one of the best. My two oldest are now workingon their backtucks, and because fear gripped my oldests thoughts she stopped and frozed about half way in the air and fell like a rock and hurt her hand. I always tell my girls not to be afraid never. Fear can lead you to a very lonely pathetic life. I know. I suffered from anxiety attacks for many many years. It made me a prisoner. I couldnt even go to get my mail cause I would have an attack. I WAS AFRAID OF LEAVING MY HOME!!! I got over it when dh went to Korea. I had to. Like in Meet the Robinsons “Keep Moving Forward”

DONT BE AFRAID…ITS ALL IN YOUR HEAD!

 

[remjsmom76]

I THINK i know where you are getting at. In that case, you dont need to bear children. You can adopt if you wish. UNELSS you just dont like children. To me it seems like pregnancy sickens you just the thought of having another being inside of you sickens you. Thats what Im getting. I had a friend who got pregnant, she didnt want to but she did and she was disgusted by it. She said she had a parasite inside of her. She hated it. She now has a son whom she loves to death…but she WILL NOT HAVE another child. She did get married to a man who already had a daughter AND who didnt want anymore kids. She is happy, they are happy and they are doing fine. YOU DONT NEED to have children to have a valid marriage. You can adopt.

Well you’re definitely entitled to your opinion.
Doesn’t work in my case though I tried talking (in tears) about letting him go find someone that wanted to do all that for him. He told me never to talk like that again. He wanted me, he loved me, children or not. He made it pretty clear that the life would get sucked out him if I left him, not if we never had kids. I guess he likes me

I guess it just depends on the couple.

 

[Bluegoat]

Well, in the case of a person who knew that they didn’t want children, for whatever reason, the church would say that person is not wanting or being called to family life. There are lots of people who are never in a position to marry, sometimes through no fault of their own, or other times they decide to sacrifice that option for something else - a career, a vocation, or whatever. Strictly speaking, even a person who is simply unable to have children is in a position where she or he would have to think about the implications of that quite seriously. Or to put it another way, we don’t get to have it all.

Your position is a bit more complicated, because you seem - unsure. It sounds like you are not adverse to the idea of having kids in a very generalized, theoretical kind of way, and it is more the specifics that bother you? And is it a visceral horror or more of a real lack of appeal? If the husband was the primary caregiver, would that make you feel better, or no difference at all?

In any case, NFP to prevent children for any length of time just because one or more partners don’t like the idea is not on. If it’s more of a psychological issue you want to overcome, then you need to take steps to do that before being married, and have some expectation that it is really helping. (You wouldn’t marry someone who hadn’t received an annulment yet, for example, the conditions for marriage need to be secure before the actual wedding.)

In other words, you need to enter the marriage with the plan of having kids, and feel comfortable with that.

I would say though, I do know a fair number of moms who felt differently once they had a baby of their own. There are a lot of hormones involved in birth that are there to ensure that result, and if you did have kids it would be worthwhile, perhaps, to look at allowing those to work to their full potential.

 

[dsulpizio]

Those of us who of child-bearing age must not make marriage about emotional attachment divorced from creating children. You are in no position to marry if you are ambivilant about having kids…

 

[LongingForLight]

I don’t have much in the way of “deep thoughts” on this matter, but wanted to point out that regardless of the rest of the issue, you are doing one thing completely right: Getting answers and dealing with this issue early, before it becomes an immediate problem. I think it’s commendable that you are risking criticism on such a personal topic, as well as risking getting an answer that you don’t want to hear.

This question might be a good one to toss to the paid apologists in the “Ask an Apologist” forum. They can probably give you the “yes” or “no” answer you are looking for authoritatively from church teachings. The people here can offer arguments, opinions, and our best interpretations, but I think the official CA apologists will probably be more authoritative. Of course, your parish priest is also a valuable resource - talk with him about this as well, if you haven’t already.

 

[dsulpizio]

The Church says that matrimony is a sacrament. The word ‘Matrimony’ has procreation built into it (it’s root is ‘mater’, which means ‘mother’ in latin). This is the first purpose of marriage, the second is the emotional attachment (St. Paul saying if you are overcome with lust, it is better that you marry…).

When people make marriage only about emotional attachment, people move in and out of it much more frequently. When people understand that marriage is primarily about raising a family, then duty, obligation, etc. play a much greater part and, ultimately, will hold the marriage together longer.

If marriage is only about the emotional attachment, we have no basis upon which to disallow homosexual ‘marriage’, since by design, homosex is sterile with no possibility for procreation.

Honestly, the more I read what people post on these forums, the more concern I have about the state of American Catholicism!

 

[flyingfish]

The Church says that matrimony is a sacrament. The word ‘Matrimony’ has procreation built into it (it’s root is ‘mater’, which means ‘mother’ in latin). This is the first purpose of marriage, the second is the emotional attachment (St. Paul saying if you are overcome with lust, it is better that you marry…).

When people make marriage only about emotional attachment, people move in and out of it much more frequently. When people understand that marriage is primarily about raising a family, then duty, obligation, etc. play a much greater part and, ultimately, will hold the marriage together longer.

If marriage is only about the emotional attachment, we have no basis upon which to disallow homosexual ‘marriage’, since by design, homosex is sterile with no possibility for procreation.

Honestly, the more I read what people post on these forums, the more concern I have about the state of American Catholicism!

Really? So if someone is infertile, or post-menopausal, or doesn’t have the physical or mental health to ever have children they can never marry in the Church?

The OP clearly has a mental health issue, since normal people are not so afraid of children. I guess because she’s sick you would have her break up with the man she loves and live alone all her life?

Sorry, but the Church is not about ruining people’s lives. A lot of “conservative” (in quotes because there is nothing conservative about it, but society calls it that) people seem to want to try their hardest to make others miserable under the guise of following God. I don’t know what it is, maybe they are miserable themselves and can’t bear the thought of others being happy and in God’s good graces at the same time.

God created emotional attachment, also known as love, and the feeling of happiness it brings. That same feeling in most couples also inspires them to bring new life into this world. Not everyone is healthy enough, or well situated enough in life to raise children. THE CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT IT MEANS THEY SHOULD NEVER MARRY, AND ALLOWS THE USE OF NFP FOR SUCH COUPLES.

(And lack of ability to procreate is not why the Church opposes homosexual marriage. If it were so, the Church would also oppose marriage of infertile and post-menopausal couples.)

 

[dsulpizio]

flying fish: emotional attachment is the secondary reason for marriage, post menapausal women can get married.

If the woman in question is physically able to have kids, she should.

Just because she can’t see herself having them and she does not like the idea of them does not mean she has a mental illness.

From what she says, it sounds to me that like she needs to accept that marriage is primarily about having kids…clearly she is not ready for marriage.

As far as dooming her to live alone, no one has a right to marry without accepting the responsibilities of it.

As far as the church and homosexuality, church docs themselves say that homosexuals cannot do what marriage calls them to do, procreate. Homosexual marriage, by design, is primarily about the emotional tie…many heterosexuals are moving in this direction, too, which is wrong.

 

[flyingfish]

flying fish: emotional attachment is the secondary reason for marriage, post menapausal women can get married.

If the woman in question is physically able to have kids, she should.

This is not what the Church teaches, don’t present your personal opinion as Church teaching. There are many cases where women are physically able to have kids, but should not. Ranging from cases where a pregnancy would endanger the woman’s health and life, to where the woman has a mental illness, or where the couple simply cannot afford to provide for another child.

The Church does not say “please make sure to have sex every time you’re fertile”.

Just because she can’t see herself having them and she does not like the idea of them does not mean she has a mental illness.

No, but she is talking about these intense fears and anxieties she has. It’s normal to have some anxiety about children, but not to the degree that she describes. I would be very surprised if she didn’t have some kind of a mental disorder.

From what she says, it sounds to me that like she needs to accept that marriage is primarily about having kids…clearly she is not ready for marriage.

As far as dooming her to live alone, no one has a right to marry without accepting the responsibilities of it.

Just because procreation is a purpose of marriage, doesn’t mean that every married couple must do it, or that their marriage is invalid because for one reason or another they cannot. You may think it should be, but it’s not what the Church teaches.

Infertile or post-menopausal couples simply cannot procreate, yet their marriages are just as much a sacrament as of couples with big families.

God may well be calling the OP to marriage, knowing full well about her anxiety issues with regard to children. And if she prayerfully determines that her mental health issues prevent her from procreating, the Church allows the use of NFP even if you do not.

As far as the church and homosexuality, church docs themselves say that homosexuals cannot do what marriage calls them to do, procreate. Homosexual marriage, by design, is primarily about the emotional tie…many heterosexuals are moving in this direction, too, which is wrong.

Post-menopausal women cannot procreate either, and for them marriage is also primarily about the emotional tie. Doesn’t make their marriages any less valid or sacramental.

Homosexuality is different on a very fundamental level of it being “marriage” between two individuals of the same sex. It is biologically very different.

Would you say if technology was invented, or people were genetically engineered so that 2 men or 2 women could procreate that Church teaching would change?

 

[fatima92]

Vocation is a calling from our Almighty Creator to be holy; they are the religious life, the married life and the single life. The married life is the foundation of the growth of society because this is the call to be fruitful and multiply. Being holy is following God’s will as revealed from the beginning and to be married means to bring forth children or being open to life in accordance to God own plan. The other 2 vocations are calling to be celibate. Our faith is about choices, usually 2 choices - life or death, heaven or hell, good or bad, etc. There is no vocation to be married and not have children. God chooses to give us children and chooses to take life. If we wish to be holy, we should remember that God has a Kingdom and in His Kingdom, there is only 1 King - Him. We should humbly and heroically accept whatever He pleases to send us.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly relates in 1652:

“By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”
Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves.

The crowning glory of a wife is not being the partner/friend for life of her husband but the children that the Almighty will give her. If on the other hand, she is not blessed with children, by praying and continuously seeking God’s will, she will find her crowning glory in the marital state. CCC 1654 states, “Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.”

 

[dsulpizio]

fish:
post meno women who marry do so for the secondary reason (St. Paul…see post earlier)…didn’t say it wasn’t sacremental in those cases.

Didn’t say that spouses must have sex when fertile…

That scientists may be able to jimmy rig homosexuals having kids doess’t mean they should or that they now have a valid marriage…not sure what your point is.

Saying that primary purpose of marriage, by design (this leaves out all of your exceptions) is procreation…the girl (can’t remember her name now) is most likely not mentally ill (which is a valid reason to avoid pregnancy) but a bit on the selfish side, immature and uninformed of the catholic position on marriage…go ahead…argue w/ that, which you will because some people don’t want to call a spade a spade.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:

1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;

2/ those who suVer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;

3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.

 

[katillac1]

Wow, this has gotten interesting. Thank you for those who have given their insights, Church teaching, and prayers.

These last few posts have gotten…a little…insensitive would be the word. I am reading these you know.
I want to clarify that while yes, I do have an intense (read pathological, whatever) fear, I don’t think that I qualify for an all out mental illness or disorder. I’m perfectly normal…just a phobia that needs to get worked out like extreme claustrophobia or fear of water. Just like some people won’t go up in tall buildings because they have a fear of heights…I don’t think anyone says they have a mental illness, even though those thoughts are completely irrational, probably just like mine are.
Also, I think the fact that I…
-am on here pouring my heart out on a very sensitive issue
- trying to work things out before I even get engaged
- and am worrying about this BECAUSE I care what the Church has to say on this issue…
is a pretty good argument that I am not being selfish, immature, or am THAT uninformed. Or at least trying not to be.

 

[dsulpizio]

Just lurking:
That’s what I was looking for…I’m not very good at naming sources so thank you for doing the legwork.

My posts stand.

 

[Jeremiah29]

Dear katillac,
One concern I have for you has to do with the fact that although NFP is tremendously effective at spacing births, it is NOT 100% effective. Another concern has to do with the fact that trusting NFP in concept and trusting NFP in reality can be two different things.

In regards to the first concern, I hope you will not wait until you are engaged to seek counseling on this matter. I do not think the Church would encourage a young man to enter the priesthood and THEN deal with a pathological fear he had on some matter so closely united with his vocation. I am fearful for you if you would become pregnant. It is one thing to say now that you would of course accept it if a baby came along, but I am afraid that could be a horrible experience for you, difficult on your marriage, and certainly not an ideal situation for the baby, your child.

And in regard to the second concern, trusting NFP is always easier, I think, when you feel deep down, that even though you have decided as a couple that you do, in fact, have serious/grave reasons for postponing pregnancy, deep in your heart you have that FAITH that God will provide if somehow you did get pregnant. I think abstaining is always best when done, if possible, with that accompanying faith. This is an important part of a marital relationship, and without that faith it seems you could easily bring a lot of stress into conjugal relations and your relationship as a whole. I don’t know where you stand with all of that (or even if this makes sense), but I just wanted to pass it along as something to think about.

God bless you, katillac. Thank you for seeking guidance. I pray you will be able to hear the Holy Spirit’s guidance!

 

[dakotagirl]

I don’t have much in the way of “deep thoughts” on this matter, but wanted to point out that regardless of the rest of the issue, you are doing one thing completely right: Getting answers and dealing with this issue early, before it becomes an immediate problem. I think it’s commendable that you are risking criticism on such a personal topic, as well as risking getting an answer that you don’t want to hear.

This question might be a good one to toss to the paid apologists in the “Ask an Apologist” forum. They can probably give you the “yes” or “no” answer you are looking for authoritatively from church teachings. The people here can offer arguments, opinions, and our best interpretations, but I think the official CA apologists will probably be more authoritative. Of course, your parish priest is also a valuable resource - talk with him about this as well, if you haven’t already.

I asked virtually the same question and didn’t get an answer from AAA. Perchance the OP could try her hand?

 

[dakotagirl]

fish:
post meno women who marry do so for the secondary reason (St. Paul…see post earlier)…didn’t say it wasn’t sacremental in those cases.

Didn’t say that spouses must have sex when fertile…

That scientists may be able to jimmy rig homosexuals having kids doess’t mean they should or that they now have a valid marriage…not sure what your point is.

Saying that primary purpose of marriage, by design (this leaves out all of your exceptions) is procreation…the girl (can’t remember her name now) is most likely not mentally ill (which is a valid reason to avoid pregnancy) but a bit on the selfish side, immature and uninformed of the catholic position on marriage…go ahead…argue w/ that, which you will because some people don’t want to call a spade a spade.

Some of us are clearly MORE selfish and immature than the OP. How’s that for a spade?

Edit: it is rather self-seeking to lambaste her when merely seeking info.

 

[entropymom]

Thanks dakotagirl!

Regrettably, I agree that this tread is getting to be a little on the mean side. kattilac1 is merely seeking answers and support, not finger wagging. While we may turn to the priests and bishops for the interpretation of Catholic doctrine, this is a fun forum to discuss our real life experiences while living the Catholic faith. We lay folk (esp. those of us with valuable life experience under our belts) can provide the common sense and experience that is necessary for our younger generation.

katillac1, the facts of life are:

1-There are no guarantees in life. You may be blessed with a married life and maybe children, but there is no way to guarantee that life is going to proceed according to our plans. (NFP offers no guarantees either). We must put our faith in God and trust him. God offers to us the promise of eternal life in exchange for our faith. That beats out any guarantees we feel we need in our life on earth.

2-Your experience with pregnancy and raising children will be unique and full of surprises. Many great mothers are not “kid-people”, but make awesome parents to their own kids.

3-Talk to your future spouse and then to the priest who may marry you. With their support, you can open yourself up to make wise choices about your life.

4-We marry for love. Without the love, I don’t think that we would make good parents or share an enjoyable life. I enjoy the time I spend with my husband when we are out on a date or picking up the toys off of the floor. Our children are a product of our love and gifts from God. I think that you would be hard pressed to find a priest that would marry you if procreation was your only purpose for marrying.

Other posters:

It is hard enough being a Catholic nowadays. We live in a culture that is in conflict with our values and seeks to villanize our leaders. Lets not beat up on each other.