Immigration Laws

[Chattahoochee]

Our Diocesan newspaper (Savannah Georgia) has been running a series of stories on the effects of our immigration laws on illegal Mexican and central American immigrants.
It would seem by reading these that their intention is to maybe gain support for a amnesty program or show the hardships these people endure living this way.
My question would be are our current immigration laws unjust? If they were then that would excuse the illegal immigrants from obeying the law? If the laws are just, have these illegal immigrants sinned by breaking them?
Personally, I think our immigration laws are moderate and acceptable. I noticed that our neighbor, Alabama, changed their immigration laws and many have fled that state. Some say that farmers there have lost a valuable resource for harvesting their crops because of this, some say they have not.
I know that in my area of work ( electrician) I am around many illegal immigrants everyday who are block masons, painters and sheetrock hangers and finishers. The problem I have is that many of my friends in these trades sit home without any work because these illegal immigrants will do the work cheaper and I know that the contractor who hires them or subs them is to blame also but this isn’t right.
On a big job a few months back, one of the board members of the building we were doing told the general contractor he was calling immigration because of all the Mexicans on the job, when the GC warned everyone, they all, sheetrockers, painters, landscapers, etc left the job within 15 minutes. Only workers left were us, HVAC guys and the plumbers , all American citizens or work permit?/green card holders.
This whole illegal immigration issue has me confused. I am compassionate toward my fellow humans but they have all done something that was not right too and by that act they are affecting negatively those who work in the same trade as they do, but, who are citizens of this country, Am I wrong?

 

[searching04]

This is a major hot button issue for me. Our church keeps dropping hints, too. We are called to be compassionate, but that in no way means the even as Catholics, we have to support others who break laws.

The cost of educating illegals in Dallas, TX alone - one city - is $1 billion a year. Yes, $1 billion, just for education. It was $50 million a year or so ago at one public hospital just for the bablies of illegals. Up to 30% of people in jail are illegals. We have an unemployment rate over 15% if you count the ones the government does not - underemployed and those who quit looking.

No, we do not need to support illegals in any manner. Basic human needs - food, medical, etc, sure. Education and employment and housing? Nope. What do we do with families who have been here for decades? I hate it, but we do need a solution; however, outright amnesty is not it.

At least one part of the answer is not politically palatable: our military shuts the border 100% from California to Texas; we clear about a 20 mile “de-militarized” zone; all the cartels and drug dealers get to go meet their maker; criminal illegals get shipped back to wherever they came from (not all are from Mexico). *Then *let’s take a percent of the money we are spending here on welfare and governmnet support for illegals and help them rebuild and take back their own country (in this case, Mexico). There is tourism, oil. Everyone wins, especially the Mexicans who can reclaim a country from drug dealers. Americans can go to work; yes, even in fast-food restaurants and hotels and whatever. I did it; it pays. We would spend less rebuilidng their country and giving it back to them then we are right now providing welfare, etc. Neat culture and people. They need to have their country back in their hands, not drug dealers and corrupt politicians.

Church says we have to be compassionate; what we do for the least, etc. That does not mean amnesty; it does not mean supporting people breaking the law; it should not mean giving preferential treatment or even civil rights to people who are not citizens. Ones who have been here for many years? We need a solution that does not put them at the front of the line for citizenship, ahead of those doing it right.

We have our government to thank for this mess. While I disagree with the politics of it, I do believe there has to be a proper solution. Just because we are Christian does not mean we throw laws to the wind. But I surely do not want my church pushing it down my throat.

 

[manualman]

This country owes its very existence and phenomenal growth to loose immigration policies. Take a driving vacation through America some time, we’re a LONG way from overpopulated!

Yes, the poor and uneducated pose a cost to the social services system and always have. If you’re catholic then your ancestors burdened the 19th century American WASPS just as badly as you think Jose is burdening you right now. Turnabout is fair play, you know.

Our current immigration policy is a joke that both parties use as exploitive tools. One party likes it because it provides cheap, disposable labor for entrepenuers, one of their major constituents and simultaneously motivates the votes of most owners of gun rack equipped pickup trucks. The other party likes it because it is long term generating a massive and reliable voting block for them: the children of the illegals. Both parties love it when illegals fake SSNs and pay into the SS system that they can never draw out of, it postpones the day of SS Armageddon. Nobody is motivated to fix it except the illegals (who can’t vote) and possibly the catholic bishops.

How should it be fixed? Pretty simple, actually. In order:

1. Massively expand the scandalously small quota set for those accurately described as “your tired, your poor, your weary, yearning to be free.” Right now it is almost nothing. Anybody without connections or money has almost no hope of legitimately immigrating to the USA. That’s just wrong. Allow in the neighborhood of 200,000 a year. We can handle it. (and that’s in addition to those we already let in due to their connections or business deals)
2. After #1 above, THEN we can enormously beef up border security. Make it more attractive to wait your turn than to risk illegal entry.
3. Offer a limited time plea bargain to current illegals. Plead guilty, pay a nominal fine or substantial community service, get probation and if clean after probation THEN be eligible for a timeline to citizenship. Automatic total pardon after 10 years of clean record citizenship or 5 years military service.
4. Agressively deport illegals after the time of #3 above is over.
5. No guest workers. We want new American citizens, not a money pump sending the fruit of our economy elsewhere. Come become Americans or stay home. When the immigrants become new Americans, they build our economy. Yeah they take jobs but they also eventually will buy homes, raise kids, hire lawyers and whatever it is YOU do for a living. Guest workers just send home the paycheck. That’s not the way America has always worked. Come on in, the melting pot is warm.

There, fixed it. Just opportunity for a fair number of immigrants, justice for those currently breaking the law with a chance of redeeming their honor and no demagogery.

But you won’t see it happen because the pols all have a vested interest in perpetuating the misery.

 

[stanczyk]

It breaks my heart to hear Catholics who are so willing to disregard the Church’s teaching on social justice in favor of petty partisan talking points.

The Church is very clear, we must be compassionate for the downtrodden. This is particularly applicable to undocumented immigrants. As the poster immediately above me rightfully state, we need to work to change the laws to welcome with open arms all the “tired hungry and poor” who want to come to this country, and we need to extend every benefit to them.

It is a shame that politics have hardened the hearts of Catholics to the plight of these people who just want to come the USA for a better life.

Yes, the poor and uneducated pose a cost to the social services system and always have. If you’re catholic then your ancestors burdened the 19th century American WASPS just as badly as you think Jose is burdening you right now. Turnabout is fair play, you know.

Indeed. How quickly some people forget.

Of course, the great irony is that immigration presents no burden at all, but is a boon to the economy. Only misguided nativists oppose free immigration.

 

[manualman]

Indeed. How quickly some people forget.

Generations don’t just absorb the lessons of their ancestors unless it is taught.

I suspect you, like me, have Polish blood and our memories are just a little bit fresher than those from Irish and Italian ancestry. Just before there were ‘wetbacks’ there were Pollacks. Some things really don’t change. At least nobody told us to just be guest workers then go home when we were used up…

 

[stanczyk]

Generations don’t just absorb the lessons of their ancestors unless it is taught.

I suspect you, like me, have Polish blood and our memories are just a little bit fresher than those from Irish and Italian ancestry.

Yes, I am of Polish descent. I wonder what gave me away

 

[andrewstx]

I think a large part of the answer lays in assimulation. My ancestors when they came from Ireland, and France learned Engish without abandoning their faith. They learned to fit in.

Contrast that to the Latino immagrants. Many have been here for generations. They live in self imposed ghettos,sticking to their own people and continue to speak Spanish. They have no interest in learning English. They even have their own parishes where they use Spanish excluesivly.

 

[andrewstx]

Before their were “wetbacks” their were also "“micks”.

 

[stanczyk]

I think a large part of the answer lays in assimulation. My ancestors when they came from Ireland, and France learned Engish without abandoning their faith. They learned to fit in.

Contrast that to the Latino immagrants. Many have been here for generations. They live in self imposed ghettos,sticking to their own people and continue to speak Spanish. They have no interest in learning English. They even have their own parishes where they use Spanish excluesivly.

Andrew, I have to say frankly that this attitude is problematic. There is no “official” language of the United States, and if immigrants choose not to learn English that is their prerogative. Spanish is rapidly becoming a major language in the USA, and this is not a bad thing.

My own parish has a huge amount of Spanish speakers, and the Spanish Mass is always overflowing with people.

We should really be compassionate to our Spanish speaking brothers and sisters and make every concession possible to them. You say that they have no interest in learning English. Well, maybe we should be the ones learning Spanish. Gotta get with the times, hermano!

 

[searching04]

It breaks my heart to hear Catholics who are so willing to disregard the Church’s teaching on social justice in favor of petty partisan talking points.

The Church is very clear, we must be compassionate for the downtrodden. This is particularly applicable to undocumented immigrants. As the poster immediately above me rightfully state, we need to work to change the laws to welcome with open arms all the “tired hungry and poor” who want to come to this country, and we need to extend every benefit to them.

It is a shame that politics have hardened the hearts of Catholics to the plight of these people who just want to come the USA for a better life.

Indeed. How quickly some people forget.

Of course, the great irony is that immigration presents no burden at all, but is a boon to the economy. Only misguided nativists oppose free immigration.

Being compassionate does not mean throwing open our borders and throwing out our laws. And they are NOT “undocumented immigrants” - they are ILLEGAL ALIENS. You complain about the politics, so don’t use pc language. Tell the truth. Also, the church’s stance does not say to break the law.

Petty partisan talking points? We paid almost $5k a month to keep my mom in a nursing home, yet illegals can walk into a hospital and get free care? And welfare? And taxes back after paying none? And free education? I stated very real costs to illegals being here. Is that partisan? Those are facts, but multiply a few hundred times for the rest of the country. Do you know they send $25 BILLION back to Mexico each year? That is money that could be in the pockets of US citizens. They want to come here? Do it legally. The church does not say otherwise; the church says be compassionate. There are different definitions of that. Only thing we agree on is the politics keep us from fixing it.

 

[searching04]

Andrew, I have to say frankly that this attitude is problematic. There is no “official” language of the United States, and if immigrants choose not to learn English that is their prerogative. Spanish is rapidly becoming a major language in the USA, and this is not a bad thing.

My own parish has a huge amount of Spanish speakers, and the Spanish Mass is always overflowing with people.

We should really be compassionate to our Spanish speaking brothers and sisters and make every concession possible to them. You say that they have no interest in learning English. Well, maybe we should be the ones learning Spanish. Gotta get with the times, hermano!

Are you serious? So no more America? You believe in the LARAZ folks, too? If they want to become citizens, they need to learn English; this is America, not Mexico or South America, or anywhere else for that matter. Should we just cede back to Mexico all the land we got over time? Immigrants should either learn the language and assimilate, or leave, unless they only want to work and then go home. Immigrants are supposed to assimilate to their new country, not vice versa. Do you know what the laws are in Mexico for illegals? Ain’t pretty.

 

[stanczyk]

Are you serious? So no more America? You believe in the LARAZ folks, too? If they want to become citizens, they need to learn English; this is America, not Mexico or South America, or anywhere else for that matter. Should we just cede back to Mexico all the land we got over time? Immigrants should either learn the language and assimilate, or leave, unless they only want to work and then go home. Immigrants are supposed to assimilate to their new country, not vice versa. Do you know what the laws are in Mexico for illegals? Ain’t pretty.

Knowing English isn’t a requirement for being an American citizen. America will still be America, we’ll just have more Spanish speakers. I see no problem there. Our Spanish speaking brothers are sisters comprise some of the most devout Catholics I’ve ever met, and I am proud to call them my fellow America citizens. They make better American citizens than a lot of English speakers I’ve encountered.

It’s a shame that there is so much prejudice against them. I’ll be praying that the hard hearts of certain American Catholics become softened to the plight of our Spanish-speaking brothers and sisters.

God bless.

 

[manualman]

They don’t learn English because they’re not stupid. They’re human being who are rather able to tell the difference between a community where they can live and thrive and one that despises them and wishes they would just disappear. They get the former in their ethnic enclaves and they get the latter in suburbia.

This is nothing new. My great grandfather never did speak anything but Polish in the house and broken English at best on the street.

What’s different is that we’ve created a climate in which they are tolerated, but never allowed to become legitimate. I know and work with some second generation Mexican immigrants and sold my last house to some. Very good English speaking skills, but still a wary attitude due to the hatred they perceive from nativists. If we return to a society with open opportunity for immigrants to thrive and integrate, they will - in droves.

Whoever suggested that they get in line to come here legally hasn’t done any homework on the subject. At the current quota system you will die of old age before you get to the top of the list. No joke.

 

[andrewstx]

Andrew, I have to say frankly that this attitude is problematic. There is no “official” language of the United States, and if immigrants choose not to learn English that is their prerogative. Spanish is rapidly becoming a major language in the USA, and this is not a bad thing.

My own parish has a huge amount of Spanish speakers, and the Spanish Mass is always overflowing with people.

We should really be compassionate to our Spanish speaking brothers and sisters and make every concession possible to them. You say that they have no interest in learning English. Well, maybe we should be the ones learning Spanish. Gotta get with the times, hermano!

If I want to speak Spanish I will move to Spain or Mexico and assimilate there. My ancestors assimilated and stayed Catholic as well. They learned English and dropped the Gaelic.

Is it too much to ask Latinos?

I have no idea where you live, but I am in far western Texas right on the NM border.

We have parishes who celebrate Mass in Spanish ONLY, at times it seems that people unwilling to assimilate are running citizens of this country out of the church.

I know a number of generations long Catholics becomeing Evangelicals, because they feel unwanted in their own churches. Americans unwanted in American parishes, that they have belonged to, and supported financially for decades.

Something is wrong with that picture, and it’s not all anglos fault.

 

[andrewstx]

We are all Catholics, the very word means universal. Let’s try and get alongm without pitting one language or culture against the other.

 

[Chattahoochee]

I guess I’ll try one last time.
Are our immigration laws unjust?
Compared to other countries they are moderate I think.

If they are just, then not to obey them would be a sin.

I don’t see immigrants as a burden, I welcome all who wish to come here and become Americans. My neighbor ( Who is Catholic also) immigrated here from Croatia legally and is becoming a US citizen. He followed the laws and feels like I do that everyone should. When I asked him about US immigration laws being fair and just, he said “Quite so”.

If you want to come here but not immigrate, there are Temporary Worker Visas, I do not have a problem with this either.

I do not buy into this idea that my ancestors were a burden to one group or another in the past or the fact that because they were immigrants, I should ignore todays immigration laws. This a weak argument and totally illogical.

 

[stanczyk]

If I want to speak Spanish I will move to Spain or Mexico and assimilate there. My ancestors assimilated and stayed Catholic as well. They learned English and dropped the Gaelic.

Is it too much to ask Latinos?

You should really be asking what you can do to help them.

I have no idea where you live, but I am in far western Texas right on the NM border.

We have parishes who celebrate Mass in Spanish ONLY, at times it seems that people unwilling to assimilate are running citizens of this country out of the church.

If it suits the needs of that community to only have Spanish Mass, then I say God bless them. Or rather, Dios los bendiga.

Like a wise man once said, Catholic means universal. Let’s not pit one another against each other because of language. Let’s respect those of other languages and cultures.

Dios te bendiga, Andrew!

 

[horselvr]

“Knowing English isn’t a requirement for being an American citizen.”

I wouldn’t be so quick to jump to that conclusion unless the citizenship tests have changed dramatically over the last few years.

Have you ever helped immigrants bone up for their citizenship test ? I was surprized that english is throughout the test. Not only that but the person taking the test must not only read the questions in english, but also write in english and answer the questions in english.

Unless things have changed since the last time I sat in with all the immigrants seeking to be legal citizens. It is really quite something to witness and the swearing in is very beautiful and quite touching for most.

I am only second generation American and my grandparents came through Ellis Island and worked hard to become citizens of this country. They learned english, worked hard, became citizens, paid their taxes like everyone else. No welfare, no food stamps, no free anything. I have a great respect for immigrants that are working towards becoming American citizens instead like others with their hand out, and expecting it to be filled and then getting in an uproar when we don’t jump through every single hoop for them because they decided to jump our boarders illegally.

I have a difficult time being sympathetic to someone that hops a boarder lives here illegally and then expects America to roll over for them.

This has little if anything to do with not respecting those of other languages and cultures. A lot of Americans lived in neighborhoods that were filled with Irish, Germans, Italians, Polish, and Jewish immigrants and we were made better because of them. We even learned some of the languages and ate at each others homes. It was a great childhood. I don’t think anyone is being heartless. In any other country a lucky illegal would be put in jail. I just think that we all need to stop trying to white wash the fact that they are illegals. And breaking the law is just not Kosher.

 

[stanczyk]

I have a difficult time being sympathetic to someone that hops a boarder lives here illegally and then expects America to roll over for them.

Then I would respectfully suggest that you take a lesson from Jesus learn how to be more sympathetic.

 

[andrewstx]

“Knowing English isn’t a requirement for being an American citizen.”

I wouldn’t be so quick to jump to that conclusion unless the citizenship tests have changed dramatically over the last few years.

Have you ever helped immigrants bone up for their citizenship test ? I was surprized that english is throughout the test. Not only that but the person taking the test must not only read the questions in english, but also write in english and answer the questions in english.

Unless things have changed since the last time I sat in with all the immigrants seeking to be legal citizens. It is really quite something to witness and the swearing in is very beautiful and quite touching for most.

I am only second generation American and my grandparents came through Ellis Island and worked hard to become citizens of this country. They learned english, worked hard, became citizens, paid their taxes like everyone else. No welfare, no food stamps, no free anything. I have a great respect for immigrants that are working towards becoming American citizens instead like others with their hand out, and expecting it to be filled and then getting in an uproar when we don’t jump through every single hoop for them because they decided to jump our boarders illegally.

I have a difficult time being sympathetic to someone that hops a boarder lives here illegally and then expects America to roll over for them.

This has little if anything to do with not respecting those of other languages and cultures. A lot of Americans lived in neighborhoods that were filled with Irish, Germans, Italians, Polish, and Jewish immigrants and we were made better because of them. We even learned some of the languages and ate at each others homes. It was a great childhood. I don’t think anyone is being heartless. In any other country a lucky illegal would be put in jail. I just think that we all need to stop trying to white wash the fact that they are illegals. And breaking the law is just not Kosher.

Indeed the documents our nation is built on were written in English. My ancestors took and passsed their citizenship exams in English.

The courts function in English, and you cant even serve on a jury unless you know English.