Immigration - Thank-You Cardinal O'Malley

[Ender]

I agree with the USCCB in which they provided a section on solidarity:

Our culture is tempted to turn inward, becoming indifferent and sometimes isolationist in the face of international responsibilities. Catholic social teaching proclaims that we are our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers, wherever they live.

This ignores the reality of the situation: we cannot address everyone’s problems. We simply haven’t the resources so the question becomes: how do we prioritize? We have received guidance on this question.

“Since one cannot do good to all, we ought to consider those chiefly who by reason of place, time or any other circumstance, by a kind of chance are more closely united to us.” (Aquinas, citing Augustine ST II-II 31,3)

All things being equal, and considering that our own citizens are more closely united to us, it shouldn’t be that difficult to determine who should be helped first…all things being equal.

 

[joemel]

Theo520 & Ender,

 This is what I believe and follow:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...on/churchteachingonimmigrationenforcement.cfm

and other sources that I have given previously.

I don’t think any of the Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, people may contradict one another, but not the faith. I follow it even if I have doubts, if I do have any doubts, I know that I need to adjust those. Practically speaking we ask God for direction. That is not a vague statement but rather an admission that we are lost and need His direction and strength to do what He would want and not what we would want. We are not to prioritize profit over people, thus continuing on in the same spirit, separating people and creating a prioritization is not the way to go. We are all equal. Immigration has been highlighted most recently and that is a big concern for the governments. I think the whole thing needs to be broken down into smaller chunks. Combining aid with security talks are too much. Besides look at all the fear and anger it causes regardless of your position. How is any progress going to be made? Breaking it down can offer a lot more insight,and hopefully that is done in a prayerful manner. If asked who should be helped first an American or an Immigrant, I would split it up; they are both in need. If that’s not enough that I would seek more from others. Judging and prioritizing gets us nowhere; especially in terms of helping the needy. Consider the motives that drive our actions. Yes, there are needy here, so help them, and help those from far away. In terms of St. Aquinas, it’s true, as far as I can tell, but it doesn’t mean that we cannot encourage and support those who can. And if I am unable to help, I can offer prayers and support

 

[LeafByNiggle]

This ignores the reality of the situation: we cannot address everyone’s problems. We simply haven’t the resources so the question becomes: how do we prioritize? We have received guidance on this question.

“Since one cannot do good to all, we ought to consider those chiefly who by reason of place, time or any other circumstance, by a kind of chance are more closely united to us.” (Aquinas, citing Augustine ST II-II 31,3)

All things being equal, and considering that our own citizens are more closely united to us, it shouldn’t be that difficult to determine who should be helped first…all things being equal.

But are things equal? If you can find pockets of desperate poverty in your neighborhood or your state or your country that are comparable to the camps of refugees from Syria or Somalia or South Sudan, then yes, you should help those in great need closer to you. But things are not that equal, are they?

 

[Ender]

But are things equal? If you can find pockets of desperate poverty in your neighborhood or your state or your country that are comparable to the camps of refugees from Syria or Somalia or South Sudan, then yes, you should help those in great need closer to you. But things are not that equal, are they?

Either we can or we cannot help everyone in the world who could benefit from our aid. Pick one. This seems pretty obvious.

Now, given that we cannot in fact help everyone, what criteria would you use to prioritize where our aid goes, and be specific about where you think aid to fellow Americans ought to fall in relation to the Syrians, Somalis, and Sudanese you mentioned. If only one of them can be provided with a job, who gets it?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I reject your characterization of the situation as being like only one job. We cannot help everyone with everything they might need, but we can help a lot of them. We can have a balance of helping some of our neighbors and some far away. Exactly what that balance is is less important than the fact that we do attempt some sort of a balance.

 

[Theo520]

This ignores the reality of the situation: we cannot address everyone’s problems. We simply haven’t the resources so the question becomes: how do we prioritize? We have received guidance on this question.

“Since one cannot do good to all, we ought to consider those chiefly who by reason of place, time or any other circumstance, by a kind of chance are more closely united to us.” (Aquinas, citing Augustine ST II-II 31,3)

All things being equal, and considering that our own citizens are more closely united to us, it shouldn’t be that difficult to determine who should be helped first…all things being equal.

Exactly, we should follow the principles of subsidiarity and focus on our actual neighbors. We have no need to import more poor people to help, who will take the jobs our neighbor needs to assume.

Mexico etal have well functioning economies, stable govt, education, and sufficient food. They have the means to address their problems and frankly the Vatican should shift their focus towards activism in those countries if change is required. Bleeding off their population to the north is no answer at all.

 

[Theo520]

But are things equal? If you can find pockets of desperate poverty in your neighborhood or your state or your country that are comparable to the camps of refugees from Syria or Somalia or South Sudan, then yes, you should help those in great need closer to you. But things are not that equal, are they?

We are helping the refugees in Syria, Somalia and the Sudan. But don’t conflate their situation with illegals from south of the Border, hunting for $15/hr jobs in our country. They are not refugees.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

Isn’t this legislative compromise to an extent unfair because:

1. For many Dreamers, the United States has been the only country they’ve ever known, just because they look Mexican or Central American doesn’t mean they are any lesser American (they were raised here for the majority of their life) or that they can be easily integrated into the home country of their parents. In some cases, there is no linguistic or in-depth cultural connection. What can make this look egregious is the idea that they need to prove that they have to “prove” that they deserve to be in the place where they’ve been born and raised.
2. Limits and barriers on legal immigration seem quite unfair because it closes the door of opportunity for those who are waiting and are willing to go through the process legally.

Additionally, on a separate note, I understand the arguments on immigration restrictions but I can’t help but be concerned about the insinuations in this debate especially here in CAF. One poster basically said America should remain a “white majority” nation and another implied that the cultures of some illegal immigrants are incompatible to America even though these immigration come from predominately Catholic countries.

 

[Arkansan]

just because they look Mexican or Central American doesn’t mean they are any lesser American

It’s not how they look, it’s that they’re from other countries. All of events that make up the American identity happened while their ancestors were in other parts of the world.

What do you think it means to be an American?

One poster basically said America should remain a “white majority” nation

Why shouldn’t it? Would anyone go to Japan and say “there are too many Asians here, we need to replace them with other groups”?

and another implied that the cultures of some illegal immigrants are incompatible to America even though these immigration come from predominately Catholic countries.

Latin American culture is obviously different from that of America. I’m not sure what them being majority Catholic does to change this, there are Catholic countries with wildly different cultures.

 

[NickyMaz]

I agree 100%, these countries need to be responsible for their own citizens!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It’s not how they look, it’s that they’re from other countries. All of events that make up the American identity happened while their ancestors were in other parts of the world.

The connection between ancestry and events in America are irrelevant. American identity is the sum total of whoever is living in America now. The African American experience, for example, is as much a part of American identity as northern factories. The economic value of the forced slave labor far surpassed the economic value of all the northern factories. Black labor built the US into the powerhouse that it is now. That’s what American identity is.

One poster basically said America should remain a “white majority” nation

Why shouldn’t it?
Would anyone go to Japan and say “there are too many Asians here, we need to replace them with other groups”?

It is not a question of intentionally and actively changing the racial makeup of the country. It is a question of accepting what is happening and not taking intentional and active steps to stop any such thing. Please do not conflate the two.

 

[rose321]

It’s something that’s un-American and it’s certainly not Catholic

Respectfully toward, opinion only>> not to offend either, but question and examine only>>

Even to enter HIS Kingdom is there not Righteous Laws that maintain Peace and Righteousness for ALL?Do Lawlessones enter in to destroy or steal such?

All Kingdoms need Laws to maintain and establish Order? God Head over His Kingdom>>>>created Righteous Laws>>> to be distributed, that will serve for the good of all>>>>>His Righteous Laws created>> to maintain Order that will provide>>> >" Equality Rights, Freedom and Protection for ALL its citizens<<<, for all Human Beings>>>AS A LOVING FATHER TO HIS CHILDREN> IN WHOM HE DEARLY LOVES, correct?

thus HE gives us>>>> His Kingdom Laws to maintain that Order, Security>> The Ten Commandments? All His Thou Shall Nots?

And throughout Jesus preaching, teachings, He also came to identified those who were the Lawlessones, did HE not? Jesus identifying them, >Rebuking them, boldly, harshly and in no uncertain terms>calling them blood vipers?Hypocrites x3>>just read all of Matthew chapter >23? Question did Jesus really turn the other cheek? Matthew 23> seems to tell us the opposite does it not?

Did Jesus know that unrighteous laws were being created to serve and benefit only the few>>> at the very expense of the larger in numbers, those who were elected to serve or rule over for their own self interest?

An Honest Days work for a honest days pay? Their concerns were not for those in whom they sought to serve, but sought to serve and maintain their own self interest$$?

Greed is never satisfied enough will never be enough will it, what Jesus whole teaching was about, for did HE not know the root cause which created proverty, innocent suffering etc ?

The larger in numbers, labors, innocent Men, Woman, Fathers & Mothers, in all walks in Life, can be satisfied, desiring only to be able to provide for their Loved Ones, their families needs and enjoy the simple joys in life>>requiring only >An honest Days work for a Honest Days wage?

Respectfully asking >Question >>Do unrighteous Laws created to benifit only the few at the very expensive of the larger in numbers, not tie the labors hands and weakens them from providing for their Loved Ones, through NO fault of their own?
Peace

 

[Ender]

I reject your characterization of the situation as being like only one job. We cannot help everyone with everything they might need, but we can help a lot of them. We can have a balance of helping some of our neighbors and some far away. Exactly what that balance is is less important than the fact that we do attempt some sort of a balance.

No, this is the problem. It is easy to say “We have an obligation to help others, so let’s do it.” What is difficult is to address the realities of the problem in detail; the devil is always in the details.

You reject my characterization of the situation, but I think the contrast is clear: if there is say, a roofing job, who should get it - a citizen or an illegal alien? If you won’t answer that question then you shouldn’t wonder that those who are willing to answer it reject your position.

The fact is that a very large number of construction and maintenance jobs are now held by illegals - we have about 11 million of them, and you can figure that at least half of them are working. That’s 5.5 million jobs not available to US workers. It may well be accurate to claim that many of those jobs are harvesting crops, but, as I pointed out before, very many of those jobs are in the building trades, jobs that used to be held by citizens.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I reject your characterization of the situation as being like only one job. We cannot help everyone with everything they might need, but we can help a lot of them. We can have a balance of helping some of our neighbors and some far away. Exactly what that balance is is less important than the fact that we do attempt some sort of a balance.

No, this is the problem. It is easy to say “We have an obligation to help others, so let’s do it.” What is difficult is to address the realities of the problem in detail; the devil is always in the details.

You reject my characterization of the situation, but I think the contrast is clear: if there is say, a roofing job, who should get it - a citizen or an illegal alien? If you won’t answer that question then you shouldn’t wonder that those who are willing to answer it reject your position.

I continue you reject your characterization of the problem. We are not trying to establish criteria that decides who gets a single roofing job. But if a certain societal policy should happen to make all the roofing jobs go to one class or another, that can be addressed as a societal policy without deciding your particular instance of a single roofing job.

The fact is that a very large number of construction and maintenance jobs are now held by illegals - we have about 11 million of them, and you can figure that at least half of them are working. That’s 5.5 million jobs not available to US workers.

But it also means who knows how many other additional jobs created by the growth in the economy when these workers are also consumers. The overall effect on other workers is not clear.

 

[rose321]

I reject your characterization of the situation as being like only one job. We cannot help everyone with everything they might need, but we can help a lot of them. We can have a balance of helping some of our neighbors and some far away. Exactly what that balance is is less important than the fact that we do attempt some sort of a balance.

Respectfully opinion only not to offend either examining, pondering on all that is taking place
Question
Is the World out of Order> out of Balance?
Order and Balance are very important are they not?
Are we not witnessing, such evidence that bares witness> being seen, being felt painfully so by our Brothers and Sisters>fellow Human Beings, throughout the world, were Order and Balance is lacking?

Respectfully asking theseds Questions out of concerns, seeking understanding in all that is taking place here and around the world>

Why are precious Human Beings fleeing from their beautiful Mother Home Land, their own Nations on foot ?
What is the root cause, that has created such, through NO fault of their own?
What are theses Nations lacking in> that cannot or unable to provide and fill their citizens needs as Human Beings?
Nations that are also rich in Natural Resources also, that can be shared with other nations lacking such?
Is this not why Trade Laws where establish, one provides the needs of another?
Mother Earth has she not provided Freely for all Life forms to continue to evolve exist, in providing for all our Human Needs?
Such as clean water?
Clean air?
Rich soil in all minerals?
4 Seasons?
Natural Vegatations?
Trees that keep us cool in the Summer and warm in the Winter?
Herbs, Spices for healing, what maintains good health?
Does the Rain and Sun not shine upon the good and the bad in due seasons?
Have Human Beings not been freely provided with intellect, hands to serve, to know what is good and what is not good, growing in such intellect, how to care for Mother Earth and our dear Loved ones?
Gift of intellect Freely given, to morally respect person and others, our fellow Human beings, brothers and sisters and to share in All that has been Freely given to All?

So why are theses beautiful Human Beings, our brothers and sisters, Men, Woman, Children >innocently in lack of and fleeing on foot, into other Nations?
What is the> Root> cause, thou their Nations lack not the great opportunity to also accomplish themselves>Greatness within their Own Nations also?

Even thou Billions upon Billions$ been given for generations upon generations, to such Nations> still to this day>$, Volunteers, Charities>choosing to give Freely> out of great Human concern toward> given with great compassion>given with Heart felt empathy toward, such Human Support toward such Naitons>>>desiring only to help lift them up to accomplish a better more Prosperious > WAY OF LIFE >

So what is the Root cause to why precious Human Beings, our Brothers, Sister are fleeing and lacking such needs in their own Nations?

Jesus knew the root cause did he not? The few He strongly, harshly, boldly rebuked, but the larger in numbers, the down trodden, He defended?
Peace

 

[rose321]

The fact is that a very large number of construction and maintenance jobs are now held by illegals - we have about 11 million of them, and you can figure that at least half of them are working. That’s 5.5 million jobs not available to US workers

Respectfully opinion only not to offend.
Question why is it that construction and maintenance jobs are now held by illegals? Could the answer be because of cheaper labor$$?
Yet sadly the illegals> still lacks an >>Honest day’s work for a honest day living wage, do they not?
Which further creates a Nation, to become out of Order, nor does it provide, promote or can it distribute>> Equal Rightes, Freedom and Protection for All its own Nation’s citizens >>neither for the illegal or those who are not illegal?

Both the Illegal or Legal >>are on the losing end?
There will be both side either way>whether one is >>illegal or Legal>> who will suffer and be in lack of?

But it also means who knows how many other additional jobs created by the growth in the economy when these workers are also consumers. The overall effect on other workers is not clear.

Companies >>have great working partners >its Nations Citizens are their >>>Labors and Consumers >>>and without the Nations citizens, who are the Labors and Comsumers>>> All Companies Owners>>> could not exist, nor continue to prosper, nor grow without their>>>>>>>>>most Valuable Equal Working Partners>>>>>>>>> who are their >>>>>> Labors and Consumers, could they?

Do Companies, its Owners need >> Labors, their individual > Gifted Talents, Skills, to build and produce their retail products, do they not?

Nations Citizens, its Labors and Comsumers>> are the very >>> Power Source and Strength>>> needed for any Company Owner to succeed>>would this be true?

Question
Who then is of far greater Value to >>the Success of Any Company?
Its owner?
Labor who are the Comsumers also?

Would it not be the >>>Laborers and Consumers>>> are of far Greater Value to any >>>>Company who are needed to bring about>>> Great Wealth, Prosperity and Health to any Nation also?

Owners do they look upon their Labors as>>Equal Working Partners needed?
Labors and Comsumers are not looked upon as>>>>> Equal Valuable working partners are they?
Nor do they recieve >>> An Honest Days work for a honest Living Wage?

Are Nations using Balance Scales of Equal Justice, for their Nations, Health and Prosperity?>> For the good of All in All walks in life, whether one is Legal or Illegal?

Asking are> Legal and illegal’s>> being used, for the very self interest of the few$$?

Brings back the question,
Why are these beautiful Human Beings fleeing their own Mother Homeland, yet having all the Natural Resources within them>> freely given also, to establish and accomplish greatness within their nation?

Peace

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I continue you reject your characterization of the problem. We are not trying to establish criteria that decides who gets a single roofing job. But if a certain societal policy should happen to make all the roofing jobs go to one class or another, that can be addressed as a societal policy without deciding your particular instance of a single roofing job.

Hmm, what is that thing happening in our society that causes people to hire illegals, rather than legal citizens. I don’t think it’s a policy…

 

[Ender]

I continue you reject your characterization of the problem. We are not trying to establish criteria that decides who gets a single roofing job.

It ought to be clear what I am driving at: what criteria do you propose to control immigration, given the fact that immigrants who do manual labor compete directly with US manual laborers? Who should the law be tailored to favor, the immigrant or the citizen?

But if a certain societal policy should happen to make all the roofing jobs go to one class or another, that can be addressed as a societal policy without deciding your particular instance of a single roofing job.

I’m trying to get you to be specific, for while it is true that immigration is not limited to concern for one individual roofing job, the result of our policies comes down to how it affects individuals. The fact that there may be tens of thousands of roofing jobs doesn’t matter to the two people competing directly for one of those jobs. So I’ll ask again: should there be a bias in favor of US citizens against illegal immigrants in particular, and against all immigrants in general?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I continue you reject your characterization of the problem. We are not trying to establish criteria that decides who gets a single roofing job.

It ought to be clear what I am driving at: what criteria do you propose to control immigration, given the fact that immigrants who do manual labor compete directly with US manual laborers? Who should the law be tailored to favor, the immigrant or the citizen?

That is a slightly different question from the one you originally asked. And since immigration is the subject of this thread, it is a more appropriate question than the one of who gets a roofing job. But I sense an assumption here that an answer to the immigration question would imply an answer to the job question. I don’t think that is necessarily so.

The job question in a free-market society should be that the job goes to whomever I choose to give it to, and that is often the one who will do a sufficiently good job for the least money. We should not mess with that mechanism too much.

The immigration question is not necessarily giving immigrants something that is taken away from natives. We discussed earlier the effect on the economy of immigration and didn’t come to any conclusion. I maintain that immigration, if done in a measured manner, can benefit the immigrant as well as the native. If the immigrant takes a roofing job that might have gone to a native, that same immigrant, through his participation in the economy, might result in the creation of a better job opportunity for that native, so that both can win in the long run.

 

[joemel]

After a brief search on the internet (7.5 minutes) I found this out about Mexico:
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog571/node/357

'The help never lasts': why has Mexico's education revolution failed? | Inequality | The Guardian

Mexico country profile - BBC News

Index of Economic Freedom: Mexico | The Heritage Foundation

So why immigrate??:

Most Mexicans See Better Life in U.S. – One-In-Three Would Migrate | Pew Research Center

Maybe a shifting focus towards the Vatican might help