Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[spunjalebi]

I also wanted to mention-- I’m not suggesting that we make excuses to not dress modestly, or we come up with excuses to dress immodestly from what I discussed in my last post. But what is just as frustrating is when people like the OP suggest that we are all going to have the same experiences as long as we do what he says we “ought” to do. It also ignores the various complexities involved with the issue of modesty.

There is a reason why I at times, would like to just default to wearing Indian clothes 24/7. Not only would my family love it, (along with my husband), but it would eliminate any issues of “well, that skirt’s not below your knees enough,” “don’t you think your boobs stick out too much in that shirt?”, “jeans aren’t lady-like–you should wear a skirt,” and the like. But oh yeah, that’s right someone would still find an issue with Indian clothes too?? Especially since some of them look like “pants”:

2.bp.blogspot.com/_1VGFEpb31tk/TD1WJHdOCOI/AAAAAAAAA1A/nlRlVFMfF_Y/s1600/churidar_6.jpg

And oh my, so many outfits are just too “extravagant” to be modest, with such bright colors and embellishments!

custom-counter.com/resim.php?resim=http%3A//indiatugofwar3.pbworks.com/f/modern%252520indian%252520clothing.jpg&title=Traditional%20Indian%20clothing

Oh my, what do we do now???

 

[Prayerfully]

I’ve done this before and I did notice a huge difference. I haven’t read the whole thread yet, just the OP so far (I can imagine it getting pretty heated though!), but I know that when I wear dresses and skirts men are much more respectful.

I don’t think that pants are inherently immodest, or that dresses are inherently more modest, just that men tend to react more respectfully when I’m in a modest dress than when I’m in modest pants.

It’s frustrating how hard it is to find modest dresses these days though. I just found a modest dress shop that I love called Christa Taylor and it’s closing! It seems like dresses in malls and in stores are always either low cut of too short. I did sew a denim wrap skirt that’s good for day to day wear when I’m doing chores.

The funniest thing I found after my month of dresses was that I felt uncomfortable when I wore pants after not wearing them for a month! That was one side effect I didn’t expect.

Right now I’m trying out another month of dresses and it’s going well. It helps that I only own one pair of pants (non-pajama at least) that fits!

Well, I’m glad to find that someone had a good experience after taking that challenge! All dressing in feminine skirts (way past the knee) got me was whistles and cat calls…something I didn’t want. From now on, I stick to dressy slacks and pantsuits. I notice I’m treated no differently in that regard than when I was dressing in a style that I was not comfortable with. Not all women can pull off lace and ruffles. Besides, my hubby prefers the pantsuits for dressing up… and with the right accessories, looks just as feminine to me as a long ruffled skirt. But, to each their own…as long as we’re not showing too much skin, I don’t think one is inherently more modest than the other.

Also, I figure if a man can’t help but look at the “vertical lines and where they draw him to” on a woman in pants, he probably can’t help but look that way on a man in pants either…Actually, I think that whole “study” is right up there with some of Kinsey’s garbage.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I also wanted to mention-- I’m not suggesting that we make excuses to not dress modestly, or we come up with excuses to dress immodestly from what I discussed in my last post. But what is just as frustrating is when people like the OP suggest that we are all going to have the same experiences as long as we do what he says we “ought” to do. It also ignores the various complexities involved with the issue of modesty.

There is a reason why I at times, would like to just default to wearing Indian clothes 24/7. Not only would my family love it, (along with my husband), but it would eliminate any issues of “well, that skirt’s not below your knees enough,” “don’t you think your boobs stick out too much in that shirt?”, “jeans aren’t lady-like–you should wear a skirt,” and the like. But oh yeah, that’s right someone would still find an issue with Indian clothes too?? Especially since some of them look like “pants”:

2.bp.blogspot.com/_1VGFEpb31tk/TD1WJHdOCOI/AAAAAAAAA1A/nlRlVFMfF_Y/s1600/churidar_6.jpg

And oh my, so many outfits are just too “extravagant” to be modest, with such bright colors and embellishments!

custom-counter.com/resim.php?resim=http%3A//indiatugofwar3.pbworks.com/f/modern%252520indian%252520clothing.jpg&title=Traditional%20Indian%20clothing

Oh my, what do we do now???

What is considered modest certainly does vary from culture to culture. When I was living in Africa and walked to the gym wearing a very baggy t-shirt and baggy shorts to the knees I was surprised to have cab drivers hanging out the windows yelling at me, because I never would have considered what I was wearing to be immodest beforehand.

And while every person won’t have the same experience I do think that many women who try this sort of experiment would have similar results. I know a number of women who have tried the same thing and had similar results. There will be exceptions, there will be men out there with no manners who will still be lewd, but I would say with confidence that dressing in what would be considered to be a ‘ladylike’ manner (for lack of a better description) would reduce that greatly for most women.

Again, I’m not saying all pants are immodest or that all dresses or skirts are modest. Only that I believe many men do act more respectfully, for whatever reason, when they are around a woman in what is considered in our culture to be a “modest” dress. I found myself surprised when I started the experiment and found that more men seemed to go out of the way to be chivalrous, opening doors for me when I was out shopping and that sort of thing.

Funnily enough, I found a number women to be openly hostile when I started wearing dresses.

The argument over “what is modest” always gets ridiculous. I’m sure there are TONS of women who would think that the a-line dresses that I love aren’t modest (they have waists! and only cover just past the knees!). But that really didn’t seem to be the point of the OP.

I do think experiments like the one the OP described can be useful. I know it definitely was for me! It clearly won’t work for everyone. And if it doesn’t work, what’s lost? Absolutely nothing! You seem to have found that it didn’t work for you, and I’m sure you’ve found something that does! But it does work for other women, who I hope aren’t discouraged to try it!

 

[EasterJoy]

In conclusion, I would offer a challenge to any woman who reads this article. For two or three weeks, get rid of the t-shirts, slacks and old tennis shoes and wear a long skirt and nice blouse, or dress, and dress very feminine and ladylike (but not extravagantly), and notice how you are treated by other people, men especially.

Back to the original post: I’m hardly a fan of Gloria Steinem, but I would not say that respect for women is at an all-time low. If you think that, maybe you don’t remember some of the finer points of what it was like to be female not that long ago. I remember when I supposedly was not good at math and could not operate heavy machinery because I was female. I could hardly get to the bottom of all of the patronizing nonsense I heard while growing up. What was on the flip side of that coin?

Secondly, a man will also find that he is treated differently, depending on how he dresses. Let him show up at a car dealership in ratty clothes, then see how he is treated on another occasion when he comes by to the same business wearing business wear. So yes, you’ll be treated in a more formal manner, if you dress in a more formal manner. Yet by looking at the man’s case, it is obvious that the possibility that he has money to spend is what caused the change. Let us be blunt, too: If I dressed like the OP proposes and stand next to Paris Hilton with her little designer dress slit to there, her makeup perfect, and a little designer dog in her big designer purse, I would also be treated differently. In a room with women dressed like that, I would not expect that I would have men rushing to pull my chair out for me, let’s just say that. Been there, too. Meanwhile, good men do not let a woman’s dress become an excuse to forget his manners.

Modest dress is not intended to win chivalrous behavior from men for ourselves. It is meant as proper covering for a temple of the Holy Spirit. If modest dress were to get us taunted or gain us funny stares–and do be very sure that in some places it will–while immodest dress gained us the treatment reserved for women of substance, then that is of no matter. I don’t think this point can be stressed too strongly with younger women: modesty is not for ourselves, it is not to impress men, it is for God and for the defense of the virtues, including virtue in others. If we gain the respect of men by acting so as to please God, that is gravy. Let’s never forget what our primary goal is, though.

 

[spunjalebi]

Modest dress is not intended to win chivalrous behavior from men for ourselves. It is meant as proper covering for a temple of the Holy Spirit. If modest dress were to get us taunted or gain us funny stares–and do be very sure that in some places it will–while immodest dress gained us the treatment reserved for women of substance, then that is of no matter. I don’t think this point can be stressed too strongly with younger women: modesty is not for ourselves, it is not to impress men, it is for God and for the defense of the virtues, including virtue in others. If we gain the respect of men by acting so as to please God, that is gravy. Let’s never forget what our primary goal is, though.

EasterJoy, are you a saint sent to us from heaven??

 

[mommamaree]

EasterJoy, are you a saint sent to us from heaven??

I agree with you spunjalebi. EasterJoy often has the words of wisdom to share that are the very ones we need to hear. She has a way of cutting through all the nonsense and getting to the heart of the matter.

 

[spunjalebi]

True. I also think it’s important to acknowledge that not EVERY woman is going to have the same experience. I’m sure there are men out there who would go out of their way to be chivalrous, such as by opening doors, but that can happen even if you’re just pretty I’ve seen many pretty women dressed in modest clothes-- jeans or dresses, whatever-- have men practically bend over backwards. I remember once walking towards an entrance door of a mall, wearing a nice shirt and jeans, with my hair down (Indian girls have hair practically down to their behinds-- mine was that long at the time) and a guy randomly ran-- not even kidding, ran– back to a door (he had left the mall) to open it for me. I couldn’t believe it! And of course I said thank you.

My husband says it’s the hair

 

[MissMichal]

I have a love/hate relationship with this topic, but I have another wrinkle to suggest: Sometimes we can be ostentatious in our modesty. It sounds odd, but it was my experience that wearing only long-sleeved shirts and ankle-length skirts with a headcovering every day served my spirituality for a while, but it eventually served my vanity in a holier-than-thou sort of way, so I gave it up. Today, I feel most beautiful in a buttoned blouse (short or long sleeved) and skirt to the knee or belted slacks. My hair is cropped short, which I consider an act of modesty but others probably don’t recognize. It’s my small, personal way of remembering who keeps me in business.

-MM-

 

[spunjalebi]

It sounds odd, but it was my experience that wearing only long-sleeved shirts and ankle-length skirts with a headcovering every day served my spirituality for a while, but it eventually served my vanity in a holier-than-thou sort of way, so I gave it up.

That is so important to keep in mind. That’s why modesty isn’t supposed to be about us, but as EasterJoy said, about God and upholding virtues.

I at times, find myself prideful in a similar manner when I go to church or about and see a young woman wearing something immodest. At school when I see college-aged women wearing short dresses and skirts without leggings, I find myself thinking that I am “better” than they are because I’m not dressed in the same way. What I should be thinking instead is how I could present myself as an example so wearing skimpy clothes isn’t a desirable option. Pride is an aspect of this issue, absolutely.

 

[MissMichal]

That is so important to keep in mind. That’s why modesty isn’t supposed to be about us, but as EasterJoy said, about God and upholding virtues.

Yes, about keeping the focus where it always should be, on Him.

I at times, find myself prideful in a similar manner when I go to church or about and see a young woman wearing something immodest. At school when I see college-aged women wearing short dresses and skirts without leggings, I find myself thinking that I am “better” than they are because I’m not dressed in the same way. What I should be thinking instead is how I could present myself as an example so wearing skimpy clothes isn’t a desirable option. Pride is an aspect of this issue, absolutely.

I see Muslim women walking around beautifully dressed in hijab, and sometimes I think I would dress that way if I could. But then, it’s still about congratulating myself because I’m more modest than the next girl. How can I be more modest than she? She falls short of the glory of God, and so do I. So I turn my attention back to Him, instead of worrying about what people are wearing today.

I guess this is why the lilies of the field don’t worry about what they will wear. They’d get too wrapped up about it, like we do.

-MM-

 

[EasterJoy]

Pride is an aspect of this issue, absolutely.

People are so funny…we can actually be proud of being modest! The angels must have to laugh in order to keep from crying.

I like this passage from The Screwtape Letters, in which the senior demon, Screwtape, gives advice to a less-experienced one:

I see only one thing to do at the moment. Your patient has become humble; have you drawn his attention to the fact? All virtues are less formidable to us once the man is aware that he has them, but this is specially true of humility. Catch him at the moment when he is really poor in spirit and smuggle into his mind the gratifying reflection, “By jove! I’m being humble”, and almost immediately pride—pride at his own humility—will appear. If he awakes to the danger and tries to smother this new form of pride, make him proud of his attempt—and so on, through as many stages as you please. But don’t try this too long, for fear you awake his sense of humour and proportion, in which case he will merely laugh at you and go to bed.

From this, I think the best thing to do when we catch ourselves feeling proud of our humility or modesty, the best thing to do is to laugh at ourselves.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Modest dress is not intended to win chivalrous behavior from men for ourselves. It is meant as proper covering for a temple of the Holy Spirit. If modest dress were to get us taunted or gain us funny stares–and do be very sure that in some places it will–while immodest dress gained us the treatment reserved for women of substance, then that is of no matter. I don’t think this point can be stressed too strongly with younger women: modesty is not for ourselves, it is not to impress men, it is for God and for the defense of the virtues, including virtue in others. If we gain the respect of men by acting so as to please God, that is gravy. Let’s never forget what our primary goal is, though.

Since this sounds like a response in part to my post since I stated men to treat me differently when in dresses, I’d like to clarify (because I really hope I didn’t come across like THAT was the motivating reason for wearing dresses!).

That definitely isn’t my motivating factor in dressing modestly. It wasn’t what I was seeking. It was a surprising side effect, just like the open hostility I received from many women was the other side of the coin and another surprising side effect. But it was what popped into my head when I read the OP.

We should dress modestly for a number of reasons, as you said (actually rereading your post I don’t think we disagree at all, I just want to clarify that changing the reaction of others wasn’t what I was thinking of when I started the experiment a little over a year ago).

Ugh… I still struggle every day with the issue of modesty, which is probably what draws me to these threads. Nursing a little one with a two year old who thinks its the best thing in the world to pull mommy’s shirt down is a challenge to say the least… this journey is definitely one of baby step after baby step.

 

[EasterJoy]

Since this sounds like a response in part to my post since I stated men to treat me differently when in dresses, I’d like to clarify (because I really hope I didn’t come across like THAT was the motivating reason for wearing dresses!).

That definitely isn’t my motivating factor in dressing modestly. It wasn’t what I was seeking. It was a surprising side effect, just like the open hostility I received from many women was the other side of the coin and another surprising side effect. But it was what popped into my head when I read the OP.

We should dress modestly for a number of reasons, as you said (actually rereading your post I don’t think we disagree at all, I just want to clarify that changing the reaction of others wasn’t what I was thinking of when I started the experiment a little over a year ago).

Ugh… I still struggle every day with the issue of modesty, which is probably what draws me to these threads. Nursing a little one with a two year old who thinks its the best thing in the world to pull mommy’s shirt down is a challenge to say the least… this journey is definitely one of baby step after baby step.

I don’t think we disagree at all. Other than taking issue with whether the disrespect of women has increased or changed in nature. I did want to clarify that how other people react is not a particularly good gauge of whether we’re dressing appropriately. There is a complaint in the Letter of James, in fact, that rich people were being given inappropriate preference over poor people, because of their dress, and that this is not permissible in the Body of Christ. We should continually clarify that it is not permissible to adjust our shows of respect at the expense of those who dress poorly, either. We need to be demaning of ourselves and merciful towards others:

"*My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Sit here, please,” while you say to the poor one, “Stand there,” or “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs?

Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court? Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you? However, if you fulfill the royal 4 law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment*."
James 2:1-13

 

[Serap]

I don’t think we disagree at all. Other than taking issue with whether the disrespect of women has increased or changed in nature. I did want to clarify that how other people react is not a particularly good gauge of whether we’re dressing appropriately. There is a complaint in the Letter of James, in fact, that rich people were being given inappropriate preference over poor people, because of their dress, and that this is not permissible in the Body of Christ. We should continually clarify that it is not permissible to adjust our shows of respect at the expense of those who dress poorly, either. We need to be demaning of ourselves and merciful towards others:

"*My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Sit here, please,” while you say to the poor one, “Stand there,” or “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs?

Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court? Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you? However, if you fulfill the royal 4 law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment*."
James 2:1-13

I love how you don’t give personal opinions per se, but you give your reasoning acknowledgement from the bible. LOVE IT!!!

RedSoxWife, I am one of those women that it really doesn’t matter what I wear, I get the same attention wearing a skirt or dress pants or jeans. Now that I’m older, the attention is not as disrespectful as it once was. There was a time when I could wear baggy clothes and men would still ogle me like a piece of meat.

I would walk through my city (at age 22, 23) with books in my hand wearing a university jacket and men would still ask me if were interested in having a good time. I was dressed very modestly for school. I should add though that my campus was in a mixed neighborhood with many shady people.

It got to the point where I began giving the finger on a regular basis…I know, not nice

 

[spunjalebi]

I also think it’s important to consider the culture of the area we live in, even though it’s the U.S. I live in an area in the Midwest where it’s practically jeans, sweatshirts, and t-shirt land. People don’t even show up to interviews wearing dress pants or dress shirts, let alone a suit! My husband and I are considered people who “overdress” even though we think we dress appropriately. When a woman wears a skirt and clothing which is feminine and modest, people want to know why she is so “dressed up,” why is she making everyone look bad, and if she thinks she is better for dressing in that manner. Not to say one should NOT be modest, but it’s one thing to think about. I also think for many men around here, it’s such a rare occurrence to see a woman wearing feminine and modest clothes most of the time, when they see a woman dressed in such their eyes boggle out for various reasons. I have to be thankful for the comeback of 80’s and 90’s fashions nowadays, with the insurgence of dresses and skirts.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I also wanted to mention-- I’m not suggesting that we make excuses to not dress modestly, or we come up with excuses to dress immodestly from what I discussed in my last post. But what is just as frustrating is when people like the OP suggest that we are all going to have the same experiences as long as we do what he says we “ought” to do. It also ignores the various complexities involved with the issue of modesty.

There is a reason why I at times, would like to just default to wearing Indian clothes 24/7. Not only would my family love it, (along with my husband), but it would eliminate any issues of “well, that skirt’s not below your knees enough,” “don’t you think your boobs stick out too much in that shirt?”, “jeans aren’t lady-like–you should wear a skirt,” and the like. But oh yeah, that’s right someone would still find an issue with Indian clothes too?? Especially since some of them look like “pants”:

2.bp.blogspot.com/_1VGFEpb31tk/TD1WJHdOCOI/AAAAAAAAA1A/nlRlVFMfF_Y/s1600/churidar_6.jpg

And oh my, so many outfits are just too “extravagant” to be modest, with such bright colors and embellishments!

custom-counter.com/resim.php?resim=http%3A//indiatugofwar3.pbworks.com/f/modern%252520indian%252520clothing.jpg&title=Traditional%20Indian%20clothing

Oh my, what do we do now???

I think those indian styles are very nice, and very modest.

I want to address this “jeans aren’t lady-like–you should wear a skirt.” If you can show me an example of modest women’s jeans that do not hug the skin like a glove, I’d be amazed, because I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen it.

Also, I don’t understand why you are getting annoyed at people like the OP. Modesty is a concern for everyone, but particularly women, and I don’t see how that can be disputed. With the exception of walking around with a shirt, men do not generally dress in revealing or “sexy” clothing. I’m pretty sure I dress more modestly than 90% of women I know, and I don’t protest it like it’s a huge pain to do so. I don’t wear shirts that show my midrif, or tight jeans that show off my rear end, or deeply cut V-necks, or anything strapless. I know mens fashions differ wildly from women’s but if we can survive with that stuff, you can too.

Back to the original post: I’m hardly a fan of Gloria Steinem, but I would not say that respect for women is at an all-time low. If you think that, maybe you don’t remember some of the finer points of what it was like to be female not that long ago. I remember when I supposedly was not good at math and could not operate heavy machinery because I was female. I could hardly get to the bottom of all of the patronizing nonsense I heard while growing up. What was on the flip side of that coin?

Secondly, a man will also find that he is treated differently, depending on how he dresses. Let him show up at a car dealership in ratty clothes, then see how he is treated on another occasion when he comes by to the same business wearing business wear. So yes, you’ll be treated in a more formal manner, if you dress in a more formal manner. Yet by looking at the man’s case, it is obvious that the possibility that he has money to spend is what caused the change. Let us be blunt, too: If I dressed like the OP proposes and stand next to Paris Hilton with her little designer dress slit to there, her makeup perfect, and a little designer dog in her big designer purse, I would also be treated differently. In a room with women dressed like that, I would not expect that I would have men rushing to pull my chair out for me, let’s just say that. Been there, too. Meanwhile, good men do not let a woman’s dress become an excuse to forget his manners.

Modest dress is not intended to win chivalrous behavior from men for ourselves. It is meant as proper covering for a temple of the Holy Spirit. If modest dress were to get us taunted or gain us funny stares–and do be very sure that in some places it will–while immodest dress gained us the treatment reserved for women of substance, then that is of no matter. I don’t think this point can be stressed too strongly with younger women: modesty is not for ourselves, it is not to impress men, it is for God and for the defense of the virtues, including virtue in others. If we gain the respect of men by acting so as to please God, that is gravy. Let’s never forget what our primary goal is, though.

I think I would pull out a chair for you before Paris Hilton…

I really like your last paragraph. I don’t want women to dress modestly because I require it for purity or anything like that. Even if every woman walked around in a swimsuit, I would be able to stay pure of mind (though it would be unbelievably difficult). What I want, is for women and men to dress in a way that is befitting of their station in life, and of their status as children as of God.

In my opinion it is sagging pants and shorty-shorts that are the two sides of this coin.

 

[spunjalebi]

The reason why people like the OP annoy me is because they fail to look at the greater picture and make assumptions about the way women dress. When it comes to modesty, I have YET to see a posting at a Christian-based website about how someone has observed all the wonderful modest trends and styles they’ve seen (the 80’s comeback has done some good things, by incorporating long layering styles and leggings), or how women have been so creative with modesty issues, or how modesty is making a comeback, with online stores like frunkyfrum, Christa Taylor, and Shabby Apple. Or how there are even women’s blogs adressing the issue of modesty such as “Veiled Glory,” and “Tea in Trianon.” But no-- instead the OP chooses to make a post telling women that they need to “try this and that,” and purports the idea that modesty is a woman’s issue and eventually, we’re gonna have to blame one of the sexes for it, hence how there is only ONE coin. So instead, we continue to see histrionic tirades about how immodest women are which yields more histrionic tirades in response.

When have I protested that it’s such a huge pain to dress modestly? Have I indicated in any manner that I can’t survive with modest fashions?

And by the way, here’s examples of modest jeans which don’t hug like a glove. I happen to own some like them. AND even a pair of skinny jeans (gasp!) which are my correct size. I have a feeling most people think jeans “fitting like a glove” means they don’t like the way female butts stick out. But guess what-- we’re FEMALE. Our butts are supposed to stick out, and mine is more noticeable when I wear a dress or a skirt and I’m no lodorsic:

bp1.blogger.com/_t7j0yzMMA6g/Rx6thATlE4I/AAAAAAAAAD0/eDXIMAexNk4/s1600-h/trouser+jean.jpg

luxepetite.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/favorite-trouser-jeans.jpg

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.onsugar.com/files/2010/08/32/2/317/3173299/3efd4ff32633063c_jeans_trouser.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.silhouettes.com/search/plus%2Bsize%2Bclothing%3Fpage%3D5&usg=__dAMWy9_9EIZHDwo8dDBKFGBzR34=&h=600&w=400&sz=31&hl=en&start=132&zoom=1&tbnid=3VRVo4VvSPxEZM:&tbnh=163&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtrouser%2Bjeans%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_en___US356%26biw%3D1152%26bih%3D640%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C3015&um=1&itbs=1&ei=CHm_TIjpEoOinQffxrmJDg&iact=hc&vpx=717&vpy=254&dur=934&hovh=204&hovw=136&tx=65&ty=103&oei=nXe_TJ-kAcWUnQf__eiHAg&esq=5&page=7&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:132&biw=1152&bih=640

If someone is trapped in a "immodest harlot women"s world, they are going to notice more immodest woman than they do modest women. If someone is angry about how immodest women dress and think that those women are out to tempt them, their eyes are going to claim that they can’t help looking at the woman who showed up to church wearing something less-than-appropriate. If a man is threatened by female breasts, hips, and buttocks, he is going to notice them even more and complain about how immodest women are because he noticed how something on a woman was a different shape than the rest of her body.

People see what they want to see, or what they think they see.

 

[Prayerfully]

The reason why people like the OP annoy me is because they fail to look at the greater picture and make assumptions about the way women dress. When it comes to modesty, I have YET to see a posting at a Christian-based website about how someone has observed all the wonderful modest trends and styles they’ve seen (the 80’s comeback has done some good things, by incorporating long layering styles and leggings), or how women have been so creative with modesty issues, or how modesty is making a comeback, with online stores like frunkyfrum, Christa Taylor, and Shabby Apple. Or how there are even women’s blogs adressing the issue of modesty such as “Veiled Glory,” and “Tea in Trianon.” But no-- instead the OP chooses to make a post telling women that they need to “try this and that,” and purports the idea that modesty is a woman’s issue and eventually, we’re gonna have to blame one of the sexes for it, hence how there is only ONE coin. So instead, we continue to see histrionic tirades about how immodest women are which yields more histrionic tirades in response.

When have I protested that it’s such a huge pain to dress modestly? Have I indicated in any manner that I can’t survive with modest fashions?

And by the way, here’s examples of modest jeans which don’t hug like a glove. I happen to own some like them. AND even a pair of skinny jeans (gasp!) which are my correct size. I have a feeling most people think jeans “fitting like a glove” means they don’t like the way female butts stick out. But guess what-- we’re FEMALE. Our butts are supposed to stick out, and mine is more noticeable when I wear a dress or a skirt and I’m no lodorsic:

bp1.blogger.com/_t7j0yzMMA6g/Rx6thATlE4I/AAAAAAAAAD0/eDXIMAexNk4/s1600-h/trouser+jean.jpg

luxepetite.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/favorite-trouser-jeans.jpg

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.onsugar.com/files/2010/08/32/2/317/3173299/3efd4ff32633063c_jeans_trouser.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.silhouettes.com/search/plus%2Bsize%2Bclothing%3Fpage%3D5&usg=__dAMWy9_9EIZHDwo8dDBKFGBzR34=&h=600&w=400&sz=31&hl=en&start=132&zoom=1&tbnid=3VRVo4VvSPxEZM:&tbnh=163&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtrouser%2Bjeans%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_en___US356%26biw%3D1152%26bih%3D640%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C3015&um=1&itbs=1&ei=CHm_TIjpEoOinQffxrmJDg&iact=hc&vpx=717&vpy=254&dur=934&hovh=204&hovw=136&tx=65&ty=103&oei=nXe_TJ-kAcWUnQf__eiHAg&esq=5&page=7&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:132&biw=1152&bih=640

If someone is trapped in a "immodest harlot women"s world, they are going to notice more immodest woman than they do modest women. If someone is angry about how immodest women dress and think that those women are out to tempt them, their eyes are going to claim that they can’t help looking at the woman who showed up to church wearing something less-than-appropriate. If a man is threatened by female breasts, hips, and buttocks, he is going to notice them even more and complain about how immodest women are because he noticed how something on a woman was a different shape than the rest of her body.

People see what they want to see, or what they think they see.

 

[stccp]

A woman can dress modesty and very attractively without looking dowdy or frumpy. It all depends upon the effort she wants to put into it. I may be wrong, but at times I think most women just don’t want to make the effort - easier to go with the flow. The problem is that the flow, just like water, doesn’t flow up to heaven, but down to the other place.

Well the overall tone in the way some people here have regarded women who dressed like that woman referenced by J.V. implies that we all as women “better watch out.” Not to mention it also makes it sound like that particular woman “made” him think the way he did.

I think ForAll also mentioned a great point. Before my husband and I were married, he worked in labor construction and didn’t always get to wear the nice attire he wears now. Sometimes he’d have to rush to Mass too, especially during holidays in his paint-splattered, grungy, and sometimes torn and smelly clothes. That by no means he is a bum.

There are plenty of straws that break the camel’s back. What we should really be asking ourselves is if we helped place some of those straws in the first place. I’ve heard women complain about modest clothes looking dowdy, frumpy, or downright ugly but complain when young girls and women don’t dress nicely. Is complaining about the lack of modesty really justified when one believes that modesty equals frumpy and disheveled? Or aren’t those people just as guilty?

 

[spunjalebi]

A woman can dress modesty and very attractively without looking dowdy or frumpy. It all depends upon the effort she wants to put into it.

The “effort” argument is moot when we remember that the purpose for modesty is not about us, or whether or not someone decides that they don’t like seeing women wearing t-shirts and jeans, or anything else an earthly person decides.