Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[RachelKH]

There is no amount of clothing that will keep a man from giving himself permission to be a cad. Some men will not treat any woman poorly for any reason, some will not treat any woman as a full human being, but rather as an object, no matter what she does or looks like, and some have “categories” of women, a situation where they feel entitled to “deny” or “grant” respect.

I found this to be an important truth we need to keep in mind.

There is no amount of clothing that will keep a man from giving himself permission to be a cad. Some men will not treat any woman poorly for any reason, some will not treat any woman as a full human being, but rather as an object, no matter what she does or looks like, and some have “categories” of women, a situation where they feel entitled to “deny” or “grant” respect.

this too!

Women may have a nice face and figure but that’s not who you fall in love with. The person inside had better enjoy your company and sincerely want to be with you.
Again, it sickens me when beautiful women tell other women to go on “test drives” with men as if both are cars and not people.
Both men and women need to be interested in each other as people, not playthings.
To reclaim human decency we need to observe standards of human decency and reject the nonsense going on around us.

yeah!

I am not wealthy and I am a stay-at-home-mom with little income for extras, but I make sure my 6 children have always felt Sunday Mass (and daily Mass) is a special time set apart (not that God and how He touches and controls all our lives are not daily topics of thought and discussion and influence). I always made sure they were all freshly bathed and dressed neatly and in their best clothing, explaining that we ought not wear our every day clothing when we had nice clothing just for Mass, a lot of which was hand-me-downs from wealthier friends or secondhand purchases, even for me. Casual ‘slouching’ was not allowed in the church. Shoes were to be freshened up with a brushing as we put them on to go out the door. Just basic respect for the special miracle in each and every Mass we attended. Even as babies, they got Sunday books and quiet toys special to the day. It helps them know it’s not just another trip out of the house – it’s a set-apart time in God’s House. This is not to say there haven’t been hectic times where a bath was forgone in order to make it to Mass on time after late night activities and sleepy children, or youth group Masses where the kids got to wear jeans at their outdoor Mass that they hiked to as a group activity – exceptions need to be made and understood sometimes. I don’t know – I just thought it worked as a way to let my children be more aware instead of unappreciative of it all. And it’s a habit that holds, now that 4 of my kids are teens and twenty-somethings.

 

[EasterJoy]

Do what you need to do but be aware of the man who proudly stood at the front of the temple where people could see him pray. What a good man he was! Look at him! He is dressed well and see how he prays!! Now look at that little bundle of rags in the back of the temple who is praying quietly.

Which of these two people did Our Lord say we should be like? Hint: It’s not the one standing at the front of the temple.

All I ask is that if you don’t like what I wear to face God, don’t look at me. If I offend you, turn away. It won’t bother me at all. I got used to being slapped around and hurt a long time ago. I know God loves me and accepts me - yes, even me; the one who leads men to sin by my immoral clothes. God loves me.

Remember that.

And let he (or she) who is without fault cast the first stone at me.

You do realize that the parable about the tax collector and the Pharisee does not say a single thing about dress. That is a later embellishment…as in, I’ve never seen that one before in my life. Of all the imagined faults he catalogues that belong to the tax collector but not himself, the Pharisee never mentions dress. There is an obvious reason: tax collectors were, generally speaking, well-off. The tax collector would not have been dressed in rags, but probably the contemporary equivalent of a business suit. He could easily have been far more richly-dressed than the Pharisee. He just didn’t use his own clothes to fool himself.

But let’s consider this parable:
*Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’ Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’ The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests.

But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence.

Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." *Matt. 22: 1-14

Now, first off, the wedding garment in the parable is a metaphor for total preparation, which is primarily interior. You don’t just show up to gain the blessings of such a profoundly important invitation without doing any preparation that recognizes the solemn reason for the celebration. Having said that, the Lord saw the exterior preparation a fitting metaphor for the* interior* preparation. It is an outward sign. We should not judge by appearances, but we should not fool ourselves into thinking that the preparation of our bodies for Mass has nothing to do with preparation of our souls. As Scott Hahn reminds us, the Mass is the wedding feast of the Lamb. To the extent we are able, we ought to dress accordingly, remembering that St. Paul said, “Similarly, (too,) women should adorn themselves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes, but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.” 1 Tim. 2:9-10

Certainly, I would not try to stand before that fiery apostle and argue that I ought to be able to come to Mass in running shorts and a tank top, and that goes for a man or a woman. I would expect something that could be mildly phrased: “Culture-schmulture, cover yourselves up!”

Yet you are absolutely right about this: It is objectively wrong to give preference to the richly-dressed over the poorly-dressed: "*My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Sit here, please,” while you say to the poor one, “Stand there,” or “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs?

Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court? Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you? However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors*." James 2:1-9

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I am not wealthy and I am a stay-at-home-mom with little income for extras, but I make sure my 6 children have always felt Sunday Mass (and daily Mass) is a special time set apart (not that God and how He touches and controls all our lives are not daily topics of thought and discussion and influence). I always made sure they were all freshly bathed and dressed neatly and in their best clothing, explaining that we ought not wear our every day clothing when we had nice clothing just for Mass, a lot of which was hand-me-downs from wealthier friends or secondhand purchases, even for me. Casual ‘slouching’ was not allowed in the church. Shoes were to be freshened up with a brushing as we put them on to go out the door. Just basic respect for the special miracle in each and every Mass we attended. Even as babies, they got Sunday books and quiet toys special to the day. It helps them know it’s not just another trip out of the house – it’s a set-apart time in God’s House. This is not to say there haven’t been hectic times where a bath was forgone in order to make it to Mass on time after late night activities and sleepy children, or youth group Masses where the kids got to wear jeans at their outdoor Mass that they hiked to as a group activity – exceptions need to be made and understood sometimes. I don’t know – I just thought it worked as a way to let my children be more aware instead of unappreciative of it all. And it’s a habit that holds, now that 4 of my kids are teens and twenty-somethings.

You raise your children pretty much like my mom raised my sister and I (a single mom, since my father left us). And yes, the habit holds (my sister and I are now in our 40s, and continue on as our mother taught us).

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

And I witnessed it to my eternal embarassment.

When I say, “I don’t think you should wear that, they won’t let you in…” Please take my advice.

And when I say, don’t go onto the slippery slope trying to wash your hands on the bank of a raging mountain river because you will end up taking a full bath instead, and holding on for dear life as the water carries you down the waterfalls and smashes you against the boulders, please take my advice. :crutches:

We all do dumb things, sometimes…

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Why does wearing a suit have to be the standard? Should wearing a suit be mandatory for men? Should wearing skirted suits and dresses be mandatory for women? Why?

If we say it’s because we’re in the house of God, and that’s why we have to dress so nice, why is it okay to dress down in public? If what I am wearing in public isn’t good enough to be wearing in church in the first place, should I be wearing it at all? I wouldn’t want to wear clothes in public that I wouldn’t feel comfortable wearing in church, and I’ve already experienced this by going through RCIA, where immediately after I was done with school I literally rushed to church. God is not simply trapped in churches, He is everywhere. I was taught that like the story of the angels who visited a town in the Bible, we could run into God in the world and not realize it. Shouldn’t my attire be fitting anyway? And if it’s not, do we imply that men should wear suits all the time and women should wear dresses all the time? Do we continue to spiral down drain of legalism?

A long time ago when I was a new Christian, I had Buddhist friends who complained that they thought Christians were hypocrites. They cited that they would see girls wearing jeans and casual dresses and skirts in public-- such as jean material or light-knit woven material-- yet they thought they were holier than thou because when they went to church they wore their “Sunday Best.” You are certainly right that we are in need of a new attitude.

Wearing a suit doesn’t have to be standard, but it’s a good deal better than encouraging a completely casual attitude.

“God is not simply trapped in churches, He is everywhere.” Whaaaaa?? I don’t even know what to say about this. You know, your comments remind of the people who say that our society is puritanical, despite the hyper-sexualization off nearly everything.

Nice job on making those who want to dress decently out to be the bad guys. If you can explain to me the specific economic change that prevented men from wearing suits or something similar to Sunday Mass, or the economic change that forced men and women alike to wear jeans and t-shirts all the time, I’d be very eager to hear it.

I agree that we should strive to dress up for Mass, but there are people who cannot afford a dress and a suit. Especially those that are out-of-work blue collar types who didn’t own a suit prior to being out of work. I am quite serious about this! While you haven’t made a comment about “people should just go to Goodwill…they can find something there” , I have read that flippant comment on other forums here. I will say, that a couple of years ago, when my husband was laid-off from work, my teen son was being Confirmed. He was in need of a suit, and with his height of 6’ 6, a suit that would fit him was not to be found in any of our city’s dozen Goodwill stores. I noticed you have a size 12 shoe, he wears 18 wide. Now, imagine trying to find used dress shoes in a size 18. Other than the Big and Tall shop, you can’t find them new, let alone used. Same with the suit. We ended up going to the payday loan place and borrowed the money to get him his suit and shoes at the Big and Tall store. Total cost with shoes…around $400 (not including the interest rate fee from the payday loan people).

I actually read something in one of the Traditional Catholicism threads a while back that suggested a family forgo paying bills and buying groceries for one week just to buy dress-up clothes for Mass. Unbelievable!

You cannot make an argument based on one case. Your husband couldn’t find a suit to fit his above average size? That’s not unusual, but most men are not that tall, and will probably not have that much difficulty finding a suit. My first suit + shoes + tie, costs about $15-$20 all together, and yeah I got them from a thrift store, just like most of my clothes.

@ LittleSoldier:

“Women are not stupid idiots that can be tricked. We know what equality is. We don’t look upon men as the “eternal enemy.” And you seem to know a lot about Sex and the City.”

Way to combine overreaction with false accusation. Either argue with factual material, or don’t argue at all. Nobody wants to hear this kind of stuff.

But shorts ARE what construction workers wear to work - at least in hot weather. Likewise, sometimes, sleeveless shirts. They have to, some of them, if they don’t want to keel over from heat exhaustion. So of necessity having a hard-and-fast ‘no shorts or sleeveless shirts’ rule must exclude some of them from coming to church in their work attire.

Either the rules are guidelines that are flexible, in which case they mean nowhere near as much as you’d like them to. Or they aren’t. In which case anyone who says ‘we don’t want to hinder construction workers from coming to work in their work clothing, but they can’t if it includes shorts rather than long pants and sleeveless rather than sleeved shirts’ is speaking with a forked tongue.

Do you work in construction? I do, and the last thing I’d wear would be shorts. Actually, I’ve never worn shorts during construction work due to all the hazards from nails, saws, splinters, and other things. In fact, the shipyard I’ve been hired onto REQUIRES long sleeve shirts and pants.

You raise your children pretty much like my mom raised my sister and I (a single mom, since my father left us). And yes, the habit holds (my sister and I are now in our 40s, and continue on as our mother taught us).

My mom also had 6 kids (1 being me ), and we were also taught to dress up for Mass. I find that is helps me to focus on the importance of Sunday Mass when I dress sharply.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

My post was too long so I’ll add something here.

spunjalebi:

Cultural standards change. In the past, it wasn’t considered decent for a woman to be wearing nylons and skirts which were at the knee, yet now it’s considered appropriate and modest.

That’s not an explanation. How many guys who wear shorts and t-shirts religiously really care about appropriate attire and modesty? Probably not many. I’ve found that the people who wear lazy clothes most of the time are generally the ones who find it VERY difficult to dress up in any way. They truly don’t know how it is done because they have never bothered to learn anything about it.

You can make excuses as long as you like for why that large person in Wal-Mart is wearing tight shorts, or why that guy always shows up for Mass in shorts and a t-shirt, and doesn’t shave, but the fact is, you probably wouldn’t see it in the 50s, and we are certainly not worse off than our grandfathers and grandmothers were.

Then again, if you don’t wish to even see that there is a problem, there’s no point in continuing this conversation.

Oh, and before you pull the “you’re being judgmental!” card on me, be aware that it takes no judgement to notice these things, and to notice trends. I don’t suppose I’m being judgmental for saying how amazingly stupid low hanging “prison pants” are?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It seems people are now discussing two separate topics (though there is some overlap). One is the question of attire that is immodest as in exposing too much, or making it more likely to make the wearer the target of lust. Another is the question, not really of immodest attire, but of inappropriately casual attire. Just because an outfit is formal doesn’t mean it’s can’t be immodest. Watch TV coverage of most Hollywood “black tie” events and you’ll see that fairly quickly.

It is true that society in general is much more casual than it used to be. The baseball playoffs are going on, and most fans are showing up in T-shirts and jeans, maybe a replica jersey – sure, some show up in business clothes if they’re rushing in on a weekday after work, but that’s really considered an exception. Yet if you look at footage of baseball games from the turn of the century, you’ll see pretty much every man in the stands is dressed in suits and ties. Even in the 1930s, aka the Depression years (though granted, most people suffering from poverty in those years probably couldn’t afford a ticket, even at 1930s prices).

I think that one issue people are having, though, is that some posters are showing a very judgmental attitude toward people who don’t measure up to their standards. There seems to be an uncharitable assumption that people who dress in a certain way are doing so almost with malicious intentions, or are guilty of some kind of moral negligence. So, the woman dressed “like a hooker” must be dressing purposefully to entice men, must be “proud of her sleazy dress” (as poor Serap was accused of here), or even at best must know that her attire causes men to lust and just doesn’t care. Hence the strawman argument often raised along the lines that “I guess you women think you have a right to run around in your underwear and then blame men for lusting after you”. Or, the man who shows up to church in a T-shirt and shorts must be dressing purposefully to show disrespect to God, must not take Mass seriously…maybe he doesn’t even believe the Real Presence, for if he did, how could he dare dress that way in front of Jesus? Especially if they’re “repeat offenders”, it’s obvious that they’re purposefully sinning!

Hmm, what was that about Charity ranking above Faith?

PS: I see RachelKH has posted here. I know her sad story about her husband’s lustful ways, even extending to his own daughters, and how he often justified it by saying this is just how he was as a man, and how he completely absolved himself of any responsibility for his sins. Most people, I think, would never dream of assuming that this man’s daughters must have dressed a certain way, or done something, to cause their father to look at them with lust. Or would they? Also, I know that one of her daughters is now anorexic. Many teen girls become anorexic not to look attractive to men by being thin, but just the opposite…so their curves will go away, so their menses will stop, so they can go back to being little girls who didn’t have to worry about men lusting after them. I suppose it would be uncharitable for me to say that attitudes like the ones here, when taken to the logical extreme…hmm…

 

[Prayerfully]

Wearing a suit doesn’t have to be standard, but it’s a good deal better than encouraging a completely casual attitude.

“God is not simply trapped in churches, He is everywhere.” Whaaaaa?? I don’t even know what to say about this. You know, your comments remind of the people who say that our society is puritanical, despite the hyper-sexualization off nearly everything.

Nice job on making those who want to dress decently out to be the bad guys. If you can explain to me the specific economic change that prevented men from wearing suits or something similar to Sunday Mass, or the economic change that forced men and women alike to wear jeans and t-shirts all the time, I’d be very eager to hear it.

You cannot make an argument based on one case. Your husband couldn’t find a suit to fit his above average size? That’s not unusual, but most men are not that tall, and will probably not have that much difficulty finding a suit. My first suit + shoes + tie, costs about $15-$20 all together, and yeah I got them from a thrift store, just like most of my clothes.

@ LittleSoldier:

“Women are not stupid idiots that can be tricked. We know what equality is. We don’t look upon men as the “eternal enemy.” And you seem to know a lot about Sex and the City.”

Way to combine overreaction with false accusation. Either argue with factual material, or don’t argue at all. Nobody wants to hear this kind of stuff.

Do you work in construction? I do, and the last thing I’d wear would be shorts. Actually, I’ve never worn shorts during construction work due to all the hazards from nails, saws, splinters, and other things. In fact, the shipyard I’ve been hired onto REQUIRES long sleeve shirts and pants.

My mom also had 6 kids (1 being me ), and we were also taught to dress up for Mass. I find that is helps me to focus on the importance of Sunday Mass when I dress sharply.

 

[Prayerfully]

This was my post:
I agree that we should strive to dress up for Mass, but there are people who cannot afford a dress and a suit. Especially those that are out-of-work blue collar types who didn’t own a suit prior to being out of work. I am quite serious about this! While you haven’t made a comment about “people should just go to Goodwill…they can find something there” , I have read that flippant comment on other forums here. I will say, that a couple of years ago, when my husband was laid-off from work, my teen son was being Confirmed. He was in need of a suit, and with his height of 6’ 6, a suit that would fit him was not to be found in any of our city’s dozen Goodwill stores. I noticed you have a size 12 shoe, he wears 18 wide. Now, imagine trying to find used dress shoes in a size 18. Other than the Big and Tall shop, you can’t find them new, let alone used. Same with the suit. We ended up going to the payday loan place and borrowed the money to get him his suit and shoes at the Big and Tall store. Total cost with shoes…around $400 (not including the interest rate fee from the payday loan people).

I actually read something in one of the Traditional Catholicism threads a while back that suggested a family forgo paying bills and buying groceries for one week just to buy dress-up clothes for Mass. Unbelievable!

And on post 317, ALEXANDER SMITH wrote this in reply:

“You cannot make an argument based on one case. Your husband couldn’t find a suit to fit his above average size? That’s not unusual, but most men are not that tall, and will probably not have that much difficulty finding a suit. My first suit + shoes + tie, costs about $15-$20 all together, and yeah I got them from a thrift store, just like most of my clothes.”

AND THIS IS MY REPLY TO HIS COMMENTS:

I did make an argument based on one case…MY CASE!!! I was giving a REAL LIFE situation! Glad to find that you can find all your things in your thrift store, but not EVERYONE can.

Welcome to the real world, Alexander! You better take off those rose-colored glasses and realize that your “one size fits all answers” and “solutions” don’t work 100% of the time out here!! Try a little compassion towards those that don’t have it as easy you apparently do…

Am I a little upset over his lack of charity and understanding to people in tough situtations? You bet I am!

Will I forgive him for his lack of understanding?
Of course I will!

I just want others to see what happens when we start to pass judgement on others without knowing their life circumstances!

 

[faithfully]

Can I just ask WHAT IS UP with a guy stating his shoe size within a signature anyway?

I’m going to let this be explained… Rather than make assumptions.

 

[Prayerfully]

Can I just ask WHAT IS UP with a guy stating his shoe size within a signature anyway?

I’m going to let this be explained… Rather than make assumptions.

Based on this young man’s other posts, he is 18 years old. I would imagine that answers your question and confirms my suspicians on why he views things the way he does…he has yet to experience any “hard knocks” or financial difficulties as an adult. With that being the case, I rest my case!

 

[RachelKH]

no need to go off topic with aspersions on a person’s character – keep it nice, even if you are one of the few.

 

[Prayerfully]

no need to go off topic with aspersions on a person’s character – keep it nice, even if you are one of the few.

Since your post appeared directly after my last one, I wonder if it was geared towards me because I questioned a young man’s lack of life’s difficulties (not his character) when they make snide comments that MY situation doesn’t matter because he has never had to experience financial hardships and has no problem locating a used suit at a thrift store that fir him? I don’t take kindly to someone that is barely a legal adult suggesting that other’s situations don’t matter simply because he hasn’t experienced it and I commented about it because hopefully he will realize that it’s a big world out there and not everyone has the advantages he obviously has and on top of that, you never know what life is going to throw your way. That’s not a question of character, but questioning a lack of experience and maturity and tact…

Or were you simply responding to the comment from “Toe in the Water” that referred to you?

 

[RachelKH]

sorry – i was referring to the questioning of his signature – it just seem more like a putdown than a friendly question. posts are often meant one way and read another – i just felt that we all need to be gentle and kind and stick to the topic rather than, you know, posting veiled barbs that don’t need written.

 

[Prayerfully]

sorry – i was referring to the questioning of his signature – it just seem more like a putdown than a friendly question. posts are often meant one way and read another – i just felt that we all need to be gentle and kind and stick to the topic rather than, you know, posting veiled barbs that don’t need written.

Okay! I have thought his signature as funny because I don’t subscribe to that “carbon footprint/global warming” stuff and I liked how he was standing (no pun intended) his ground that he thinks the footprint thing is a hoax as well.

And you’re right, it can get ugly on here. It always does when it comes to topics like this.

 

[spunjalebi]

Wearing a suit doesn’t have to be standard, but it’s a good deal better than encouraging a completely casual attitude.

“God is not simply trapped in churches, He is everywhere.” Whaaaaa?? I don’t even know what to say about this. You know, your comments remind of the people who say that our society is puritanical, despite the hyper-sexualization off nearly everything.

That’s because our society has a very ambiguous and diametric approach to these issues. It’s funny really…because on one hand breasts are extremely sexualized, yet when Parenting Magazine had a month issue of an infant breastfeeding, there was a backlash. And also, I was trying to illustrate that we are supposed to be aware of God’s presence everywhere rather than just church. We do not trap God in a church. If what I am wearing outside of church on a regular everyday basis isn’t decent—clean, free of rips, holes, and stains—or is modest, should I be wearing it in the first place?

Nice job on making those who want to dress decently out to be the bad guys. If you can explain to me the specific economic change that prevented men from wearing suits or something similar to Sunday Mass, or the economic change that forced men and women alike to wear jeans and t-shirts all the time, I’d be very eager to hear it.

Unfortunately your own words have made people who don’t wear suits out to be the bad guys. Don’t put words in my mouth. Go back and read my posts and my responses to other posts.
And for the record, the economic change has done a number to people. I want to see how you cope when your husband is unemployed for a year and barely has decent clothes to go to his interviews in. And why are you so hung up on this suits thing? Why does it concern you so much that others aren’t wearing suits?

My post was too long so I’ll add something here.
That’s not an explanation. How many guys who wear shorts and t-shirts religiously really care about appropriate attire and modesty? Probably not many. I’ve found that the people who wear lazy clothes most of the time are generally the ones who find it VERY difficult to dress up in any way. They truly don’t know how it is done because they have never bothered to learn anything about it.

I feel great pity for you that instead of being concerned about the spiritual welfare of your fellow church goers, you seem more concerned about ceremony. How do you really know the heart of these church goers? Have you asked them? Or are you making assumptions because you are too busy comparing yourself to how others aren’t dressed?

Oh, and before you pull the “you’re being judgmental!” card on me, be aware that it takes no judgement to notice these things, and to notice trends. I don’t suppose I’m being judgmental for saying how amazingly stupid low hanging “prison pants” are?

Sorry, but I don’t believe I ever was or will play that card.

You can make excuses as long as you like for why that large person in Wal-Mart is wearing tight shorts, or why that guy always shows up for Mass in shorts and a t-shirt, and doesn’t shave, but the fact is, you probably wouldn’t see it in the 50s, and we are certainly not worse off than our grandfathers and grandmothers were.

Then again, if you don’t wish to even see that there is a problem, there’s no point in continuing this conversation.

Did you really read what I posted? Did you really read about the various aspects which I have brought up?

You’re right…there is no point of continuing this conversation.

I think I am done with this thread and agree with Serap’s emotional expressions. I think many of us have brought up the various aspects and issues involved with modesty yet for reasons I will never know, sensibility won’t get acknowledged. I am run weary honestly. But I have learned an important lesson…I am going to take due care to make sure the state of my mind and heart are modest before I go off thinking that I am holier than thou because I can’t see others wearing just as modest clothes as I am. What a sad state of affairs we are in, when Catholics are getting mad because other people aren’t wearing what they are. It was great talking folks, but I’m done.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Okay! I have thought his signature as funny because I don’t subscribe to that “carbon footprint/global warming” stuff and I liked how he was standing (no pun intended) his ground that he thinks the footprint thing is a hoax as well.

And you’re right, it can get ugly on here. It always does when it comes to topics like this.

Prayerfully, I also think that Alexander’s signature is hilarious.

Now, regarding his post, the way I read it, he is saying that your case is exactly that exception where you genuinely cannot afford to buy a new suit, and cannot get one used. I think he is not trying to be disrespectful of your circumstances, quite the contrary.

And neither would I ever disrespect you. When my father chased my mom and her two kids (my sister and I) out of our home, we all fled with only the clothes on our backs. I know, too, what it means to have limited financial means, because that’s how I grew up.

Where I live, the offenders are not those who show up in simple, but decent (not scandalous, not sexually provocative) attire. No, the offenders tend to wear expensive stuff, designer stuff, name brand stuff - but they show too much skin. When I had to close my eyes, not to see the nipples of the bride and bridesmaids peak out of their dresses, these were women dressed expensively. Everything in that wedding party screamed “elite”, “exclusive”, and “expensive”. The dresses, the limos, the flower decorations, the filming crew. They only forgot one thing: to dress up in such a way that their breasts and nipples wouldn’t risk falling out of their dresses at every slight move. And THAT’S what our Catholic priests have to put up with. Had I been the priest, I would have chased them out of my church. Charity or no charity, put on some decent clothes and come back to see me, if you want me to celebrate your wedding.

 

[faithfully]

sorry – i was referring to the questioning of his signature – it just seem more like a putdown than a friendly question. posts are often meant one way and read another – i just felt that we all need to be gentle and kind and stick to the topic rather than, you know, posting veiled barbs that don’t need written.

See… this is interesting. You assume put down. It’s a question… and it’s topic related.

Does a guy blabbing about his foot size, in a world that makes sexual endowment comparisons to said foot size compare to a how much skin a woman is exposing…

Seriously, the first time I read this guys signature, I thought… EWWW Gross, What are you saying? Then later, I realized he was younger, and perhaps it really has to do with the environment.

The thing is, you can’t judge a person based soley on presentation. You know… book… cover… etc. and it shouldn’t effect how you treat a person.

Yet we all realize it effects how we’re treated… And so, as wrong as it is… worth considering… no??

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I did make an argument based on one case…MY CASE!!! I was giving a REAL LIFE situation! Glad to find that you can find all your things in your thrift store, but not EVERYONE can.

But you can’t really argue that way. One case doesn’t make a very convincing argument. I doubt the people during the great depression were very well off, but look at them.

http://www.worldfinancialblog.com/wp-content/uploads/95714-004-feadeda8.jpg

Funny how today people see this is “dressed up.”

Welcome to the real world, Alexander! You better take off those rose-colored glasses and realize that your “one size fits all answers” and “solutions” don’t work 100% of the time out here!! Try a little compassion towards those that don’t have it as easy you apparently do…

Am I a little upset over his lack of charity and understanding to people in tough situtations? You bet I am!

I just want others to see what happens when we start to pass judgement on others without knowing their life circumstances

My Dad has no job, and my family has has about 2 months of money left for all 8 of us before we’re completely broke. The job I just got will provide just enough to keep my family going until we find new opportunities.

I guess people assume all 18 year olds have a million dollars and a Porsche. Aren’t you being judgmental by assuming this?

Based on this young man’s other posts, he is 18 years old. I would imagine that answers your question and confirms my suspicians on why he views things the way he does…he has yet to experience any “hard knocks” or financial difficulties as an adult. With that being the case, I rest my case!

You don’t want me to assume that other people are being lazy because they wear casual clothes to Sunday Mass, yet you assume I have yet to experience any hard knocks or financial difficulty? How is that fair to me?

See… this is interesting. You assume put down. It’s a question… and it’s topic related.

Does a guy blabbing about his foot size, in a world that makes sexual endowment comparisons to said foot size compare to a how much skin a woman is exposing…

Seriously, the first time I read this guys signature, I thought… EWWW Gross, What are you saying? Then later, I realized he was younger, and perhaps it really has to do with the environment.

The thing is, you can’t judge a person based soley on presentation. You know… book… cover… etc. and it shouldn’t effect how you treat a person.

Yet we all realize it effects how we’re treated… And so, as wrong as it is… worth considering… no??

Lol! I never thought my signature would be taken so many ways! It refers to my foot size as a reference to global warming.

Anyway I wasn’t blabbing, I just posted it in my sig.

I want to be clear on something. I do not believe that more skin = less respect for women. The Muslims are greatly lacking in respect for women, and their women are covered head to toe. Rather, it is a combination of things. The extreme feminist movement, the pornography industry (run mostly by men), planned parenthood, contraception, the dissolution of absolutes, and objective truth and the institution of a relative morality, sexual “freedom”, and many other things. If anything, the greatest offender is the porn industry, the media, and fashion, all of which seek in whole or in part, to make women (and men to a certain degree) out to be sex objects. It is truly rare to see a movie that does not have ONE main female who’s only purpose is to be the object of sexual desire for the lead male.

The more men and women liberate themselves from sexual morality, the more they act in promiscuous manners, and the more “normal” this appears to be.

Modern jokes are mostly sexual, even in kids movies references are made to sexual anatomy. In older movies, marriage was constantly put down, and jokes about wives and husbands was the norm. These days, it is common to see almost pornographic ads for clothing in the mall, or online.

I remember one football ad I saw once that had to do with chips or something. It was all fine and dandy with the characters talking about football and eating chips, when suddenly the camera jumped to a young woman in a seductive pose, using a garden hose to water some flowers. The camera cut back in about 5 seconds. I was astounded at just how blatant this sexual display was. Sadly this is becoming more and more accepted.

 

[Prayerfully]

But you can’t really argue that way. One case doesn’t make a very convincing argument. I doubt the people during the great depression were very well off, but look at them.

http://www.worldfinancialblog.com/wp-content/uploads/95714-004-feadeda8.jpg

Funny how today people see this is “dressed up.”

My Dad has no job, and my family has has about 2 months of money left for all 8 of us before we’re completely broke. The job I just got will provide just enough to keep my family going until we find new opportunities.

I guess people assume all 18 year olds have a million dollars and a Porsche. Aren’t you being judgmental by assuming this?

You don’t want me to assume that other people are being lazy because they wear casual clothes to Sunday Mass, yet you assume I have yet to experience any hard knocks or financial difficulty? How is that fair to me?

Lol! I never thought my signature would be taken so many ways! It refers to my foot size as a reference to global warming.

Anyway I wasn’t blabbing, I just posted it in my sig.

Okay, first of all, I’m sorry about your family’s situation and I’m glad you are able to help out. However, I (like all of us on here) will use what I know, what I have experienced, and how I feel about things to determine what I’m going to post. Just as you posted the picture of the out-of-work businessmen in suits during the depression. You wanted to make a point about poor people dressing up. Okay, that’s fine. Can you find a picture of an immigrant factory worker that is 6’6 and wearing a suit???

At this point, I’m going to say I am too old to argue fashion with a teenager that is not my own child…