Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

  • Thread starter Thread starter stccp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Country Singer, I see you’re engaged! Congratulations, girrrll!! 🙂

In reply to the thread, I posted a link to this blog before, and it wouldn’t hurt to take a quick look since you’ve all been talking about the right attire for Mass. This guy hits the nail on the head, IMO.

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-dress-for-mass.html

God Bless 👍
~Therese
I think that blog post was very nicely written, and the blog author seemed both charitable and knowledgeable. As a new Catholic, I appreciated getting the opportunity to read that. Thanks for posting it. 🙂
 
Country Singer, I see you’re engaged! Congratulations, girrrll!! 🙂

In reply to the thread, I posted a link to this blog before, and it wouldn’t hurt to take a quick look since you’ve all been talking about the right attire for Mass. This guy hits the nail on the head, IMO.

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-dress-for-mass.html

God Bless 👍
~Therese
I just wanted to say thank you for your signature.👍 I didn’t know it is “Respect Life” month and am happy to find out. 🙂

God bless!! 🙂
 
Here, some basics:

NINE WAYS OF BEING ACCESSORY TO ANOTHER’S SIN
  1. By counsel.
  2. By command.
  3. By consent.
  4. By provocation.
  5. By praise or flattery.
  6. By concealment.
  7. By partaking.
  8. By silence.
  9. By defense of the ill done
Something to consider, each one especially when speaking on these subjects.
I like this list!! 👍 Thank you!! Did you come up with this on your own? I’m asking because I’m wondering if anything else has been written about these ways of being an accessory to another’s sin. Examples would be great. I’m very impressed with your list and will copy it for my personal files, if that is OK with you.

God bless! 🙂
 
I went to Mass in jeans, a nice cardigan, and tennis shoes. I take the bus to Mass, and for me to get my bus stop, I walk in mud on the shoulder of the road. I’ve ruined dressy items that way, and I usually arrive about 3-4 minutes before Mass begins, so no time to change. Bus schedules where I live are not very good on the weekends. And no, I don’t have money for a car, or to pay for a cab for both ways back (it would be around $50 for a round trip).

I didn’t know that I shouldn’t have gone through the door. Thank you for your clarification. 😉

I’ll know for next time to not even show up. Yay for sleeping in! 😛 😃
CountrySinger, thanks for a great illustration of why it is uncharitable to assume that someone who dresses in a certain way must be guilty of moral turpitude or negligence.

Congrats on your engagement, BTW.

I also have a question for those who have repeatedly bemoaned the choice of Mass attire of your fellow parishioners. While some of you have hinted at it, no one so far has actually said it is a sin for a woman to wear a spaghetti-strap dress to Mass, or for a man to wear a tank top and shorts to Mass. Do you think it is a sin? If not, I am really having trouble understanding why you feel so justified in your judgment.

Even if these actions are sin, I find this thread another example of how it is so much easier to point fingers at someone else for a sin that you know you would never commit yourself. I think this is why many heterosexuals act like homosexual behavior is the most disgusting, horrible sin anyone can commit. They know they could never sin that way. But other sins such as heterosexual fornication, masturbation, use of contraception, etc…well, many people have either already committed the sin or know “there but for the grace of God go I”. So they hesitate to speak up.

Similarly, it is easy for a man to point a finger at an immodestly dressed woman and harp on how sinful she is, while winking at his brothers who are looking at her lustfully. Or for a woman who dresses like a Mennonite to point at a woman in a T-shirt and jeans and sniff about her inappopriate dress. Yet the casually clad woman might be a very humble, chaste woman, perhaps she is busy caring for many children she joyfully welcomed into her life and that is why she is dressed the way she is, while the woman in a mantilla and ankle-length dress might be a gossipmonger who enjoys committing detraction and impugning the reputations of those around her. I wonder who is worse?

I used to know an Archie Bunker type of man who was known for making uncharitable comments about women as well as those who were of a different ethnicity than he was. Once a young woman of Hispanic ethnicity announced at a party that she was pregnant. Instead of rejoicing, the man assumed she must be unmarried and said all sorts of uncharitable things about how sinful she must be to announce her sin in front of everyone and expect a positive response, he even said “I bet she doesn’t even know who the father is!”. This woman was actually married, but even if she hadn’t been, I found it very telling that this was the first response this man had to her announcement. Even if he had been “right”, he still would have been guilty of prejudice and bigotry. Now, I know many Hispanics are devout Catholics, but unfortunately there are many single Hispanic mothers where I live and apparently this man had developed a prejudice that all Hispanics are promiscuous “breeders” who depend on welfare to support themselves.
 
I think that blog post was very nicely written, and the blog author seemed both charitable and knowledgeable. As a new Catholic, I appreciated getting the opportunity to read that. Thanks for posting it. 🙂
I agree! You’re very welcome; it helped me a lot too. 🙂

And may I say welcome to the Church! God Bless you!!
I just wanted to say thank you for your signature.👍 I didn’t know it is “Respect Life” month and am happy to find out. 🙂

God bless!! 🙂
You’re welcome, Little Soldier.:flowers: I’m praying all the sacrifices and prayers made this month will help the mid-term elections go our way in November. May the Holy Spirit guide those of us who are voting to remember even the littlest ones!
 
Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

Respect for women in this country is at an all time low, and much of that is because of the way they dress, Going shopping, to class and even to Sunday Mass, in a t-shirt, jeans or shorts, does nothing to enhance the dignity of a woman. Women dress the way they do today because someone, over half a century ago, decided they wanted to dumb down America, and convincing people to be less concerned about how they dress is one way of doing it.

Even if they are full length and not tight fitting, a pair of slacks on a woman has the same psychological effect of dividing her up into parts”.
.

stccp,

I’m sure you must be a wonderful Christian person with only the best of intentions, and I have respect for you. However, I would have to say that I COMPLETELY disagree with what you are saying in your thread.
  1. There was a point in time in the western world when women DID dress very very “modestly” - much like you described. They wore long thick dresses that started high up on their neck and went all the way down to their shoes. In fact, they covered themselves up so much that men used to get aroused simply from catching a glimpse of their ankles. So if what you are saying has complete truth to it, then we’d all expect that these woman were all treated with great respect and dignity -after all, they did dress to “show themselves and not their bodies” - as you would put it. However, if you look back on those times, you will come to find that the opposite is actually true. Woman during much of that time were not allowed to vote or to have careers. They were second class citizens - properties of men. Sexism was definitely at large.
On the other hand, if you consider many of the indian tribes around the world (many, not all), you will come to find that women are considered to be of great value. They are deeply respected and valued and viewed as sacred because of their ability to bear children. Yet those woman DON’T walk around completely covered up from head to toe. They walk around half naked! And the men around them do not get aroused every second from seeing them like this. Sexism is much less of an issue with these people.

Now, I’m not saying we should all walk around half naked to gain the respect of men. I am not saying that it will gain their respect. All I’m saying is maybe it’s more objective than how you’re telling it, and maybe it’s more about what is socially accepted. Is it socially accepted for woman to wear t shirts, jeans, shorts, mini skirts, tank tops, and bathing suits? Absolutely. Hopefully you can understand the point I’m trying to make here.
  1. I love wearing little clothing. I’m a thin, physically fit young woman who moved to Florida from the city of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I am proud of my beautiful, strong and lean body. It is hot and humid here in Florida and I live by the beach. I love wearing my cute little mini skirts, jean shorts, tight tops, and I LOVE sporting my bikinis to the beach, having fun in the water, and getting a tan. I’m very outdoorsy. I run 3 miles everyday, I like to play, hike, and climb trees. How could I accomplish all this if I had to be confined to wearing dresses and long skirts at all times? It would keep me from being free and doing what I love. What if it’s a hot day out? Am I going to suffer just so I can be perceived as what YOU refer to as “lady like?” Now THAT is sexist. That is in no way good for women, or respecting of woman as an individual, free to go off into the world, play, explore, exercise, and have fun.
  2. I don’t think you are giving men enough credit here. They may be “wired” differently from us woman. Sure, they are a lot more visually oriented, and I know and understand that. But they are not animals. They are human beings with brains, self control, and the ability to make choices. Christian men who are close to me have told me that just because a girl is wearing something small, doesn’t necessarily mean they will automatically be aroused and think dirty thoughts for the next 10 minutes. They have to actually sit there and make the conscious decision to think about them in the most sexual, disrespectful way - it’s not something they have absolutely no control over. They are very capable of not allowing themselves to go there. And I think they are called to make an effort to be chaste in that sense. It’s extremely sexist to make us woman have the soul responsibility over this, and make us be limited to wearing only long dressed and long skirts, despite the temperature and the activities we want to participate in.
  3. I love men. I have a lot of male friends, some of which are very devout Christians, and I have just recently married the most amazing Catholic man in the world. I have never felt like I was being looked at as a “collection of body parts” by any of them. Yes, I have a nice body, I live in a hot place, and so I wear what you would consider to be little clothing, and yet I have very seldom felt disrespected by a man. Quite the opposite actually, men respect me because I make it very clear to them with my body language, the way I live my life, and the way I talk, that I am a conservative girl with morals. There is much more to me than my clothes, and men ARE smart enough to figure that out.
Conclusion: Hopefully these 4 arguments I gave you will open your eyes to the flaws and sexism in your ideal. And hopefully you understand that in no way am I saying that we should all rip our clothes off and pose for playboy. Absolutely not. We still need to keep our sexual private parts covered. But my gosh, “no jeans allowed, no shorts allowed, no skirts exposing the knee, and no pants and no t-shirts” whatsoever?? That is definitely sexist, demeaning to woman, and WAY beyond the boundary of decency.
 
I like this list!! 👍 Thank you!! Did you come up with this on your own? I’m asking because I’m wondering if anything else has been written about these ways of being an accessory to another’s sin. Examples would be great. I’m very impressed with your list and will copy it for my personal files, if that is OK with you.

God bless! 🙂
Oh no, this is basic catechetics, you’ll find it in prayer books, catechisms, etc.

The Catechism of Christian Doctrine has it, and then says:

"When are we answerable for another’s sin?

Whenever in any of those nine ways we are the cause of his sin or contribute to it.’"

As for what else has been written, I will take a look in my library later when I can, God willing.
 
I’m pretty certain I didn’t change your words, but simply copied and pasted. Did you think I was bolding your words to create the false impression of aggression in your assertion that the poster knew a lot about Sex and the City? If so, I apologize, but I routinely bold specific parts of a post so I can address it specifically.
You changed my words by bolding some that I had not bolded, thereby placing an emphasis on those words even though I didn’t place any emphasis at all. You changed my quote. You changed the context.

I honestly don’t know why you bolded my words. But if you routinely bold specific parts of someone else’s post you should know enough to add that you are the one who has bolded - not the original poster. That is common forum decorum.
I stick to my opinion though. That statement was simple counter with an underhanded accusation tacked on. The only reason you could have for saying that, is that you wish to cast doubt upon the moral standing of the poster, since if they know a lot about the show/movies, they clearly must watch them a lot. I should have said “nobody who likes an honest argument wants to hear that kind of thing.” Perhaps you think I am being harsh, but I took real issue with that statement. In fact, here’s some more things you said that are unfair…
An underhanded accusation tacked on? Oy vey!! :eek: The “only” reason you give is certainly not the only reason. It appears that you are making assumptions based on very little.

I do not wish to “cast doubt upon the moral standing of the poster.” As I stated earlier, this poster has discussed both Sex and the City and other TV shows quite a bit. I would like to know why he knows so much about these shows. If they are offensive to him, why is he watching them? It could simply be that he is gathering evidence to back up his views but I don’t know. And I stand by what I said.
by LittleSoldier, although I didn’t bold any of it:
"Unless I’m mistaken, underwear is worn under other clothes. Thong underwear is very comfortable. And yes, people pay for it. Obviously. What difference does it make to you? It’s covered up! Why are you so interested in women’s underwear anyway?"
Why is he so interested in women’s underwear? That’s a laughable and again, UNFAIR attack on this poster’s person. You apparently can’t contradict his argument, so you resort to a suggestion that he has an unhealthy interest in women’s underwear.
There you go, again bolding words I didn’t bold. I am requesting that you discontinue this practice. By bolding another poster’s words you are changing the context of the post. That’s rude.

Why is it laughable that he is so interested in women’s underwear? What possible difference could it make to him? This thread is about immodesty and the lack of respect for women and in that post women are being derided for wearing underwear that doesn’t even show. How could that possibly have anything to do with the topic? Why would any man be interested in what women wear under their other clothes? They don’t show, so what difference does it make? Is it immodest to wear thong underwear to Mass? I don’t think so!!
by LittleSoldier, although I didn’t bold any of it:
"Yes, Catholic women - wake up! Don’t open doors on your own! Let men do it. Pretend to be helpless creatures who need men to make the decisions and treat you with kid gloves and put you high upon a pedestal."
Again you bolded my words. Why do you keep doing this?
So when men open doors for women, they are basically implying that women are helpless creatures who need to be treated with kids gloves? I suppose you also think it is sexist to say that men are more natural leaders than woman?
Thank you for asking an actual question instead of just making an assumption. Ooops, then you made another assumption.

Men opening doors for women used to be (and still sometimes is, although the practice seems to be disappearing as far as I can see from my own experiences of seeing men open doors for women) a sign of respect. But why is it a sign of respect? IMHO it is because some men have put women on a pedestal. I don’t know what it means each and every time a man opens a door for a women. Do women who have doors opened for them by men ask why the man is doing it? It could be a sign of respect. But it could simply be that the woman is standing behind a man and he would also open a door for a man. It could be that the woman is carrying packages or walking with a cane and opening a door for her is an act of kindness that has nothing to do with her gender. But I would hope that a man would open a door for a man that is burdened with packages or is using a cane, too.

I open doors for men who are burdened with packages and/or using a cane or walker, if I can. I also hold the door open for absolutely anyone.

And men really don’t need to treat women with “kids” gloves. I was referring to the material that forms the gloves, not the size of the gloves.

About men being more natural leaders: you’re correct in that I believe this is sexist (at least on the surface) but as you didn’t specify what the man or woman would be leading, it’s really hard to say. Are you referring to a president of a country or the person who runs the local PTA or Boy Scout troop? Do you have research findings that show support for the idea that a man is a more natural leader? If so I would like links to that research and if you have already provided links I request a post number and would appreciate that.

-----continued in next post-----
 
-----continuation of last post-----
The consequences of going overboard with fancy dress for Sunday Mass are far less than that of going underboard (if that is a real saying). Do you think jeans and t-shirts are appropriate attire Sunday Mass? Is a pair of slacks and a dress shirt better? Is a suit better? Or do you consider them all the same, because most people will not. People who understand appropriate clothing and attire will see the progression, do you? Believe it or not, back in the day, it was common knowledge what the difference between a 3 button and 2 button suit was.
Thank you again for actually asking me a question. I think that jeans and t-shirts are appropriate attire for Mass on the stipulation that the clothes are not ratty and the t-shirts do not have offensive pictures or words on them. But I don’t know why someone would come to Mass in those sort of clothes. It’s not up to me to judge them based on what they are wearing and I have no idea if they are wearing this type of clothing because of laziness or poverty. And it’s really none of my business unless I can offer some help to them.

A pair of slacks and a dress shirt are better if that is what helps the Mass attendee feel comfortable and able to get into the spirit of the Mass. If the person does not feel comfortable wearing this type of clothing then, no, it is not better.

Ditto for the suit.

Do I see a progression? Well, yeah. There’s informal clothing compared to more formal clothing which is compared to even more formal clothing. So is a tuxedo better than a suit?

I have no idea what the difference is between a 3 button and a 2 button suit. I also don’t understand why wearing a piece of material around one’s neck and letting it hang down one’s front is somehow respectful.

Do you understand “appropriate clothing and attire”? If so, I respectfully ask why you feel you have the right to determine what is appropriate and what is not. Doesn’t the concept of modesty involve more than clothes? Isn’t it modest to lower one’s eyes and head when the Eucharist is displayed? Isn’t that sort of thing more important than whether someone is wearing jeans or a suit?

If I am at Mass I don’t pay attention to what others wear. My eyes are usually either on the priest, the altar, the Body and Blood of the Christ which I am receiving during Holy Communion, or closed while I pray. The only time I might notice someone’s attire is during the Sign of Peace and honestly I don’t even see it then.
 
stccp,

I’m sure you must be a wonderful Christian person with only the best of intentions, and I have respect for you. However, I would have to say that I COMPLETELY disagree with what you are saying in your thread.
  1. There was a point in time in the western world when women DID dress very very “modestly” - much like you described. They wore long thick dresses that started high up on their neck and went all the way down to their shoes. In fact, they covered themselves up so much that men used to get aroused simply from catching a glimpse of their ankles. So if what you are saying has complete truth to it, then we’d all expect that these woman were all treated with great respect and dignity -after all, they did dress to “show themselves and not their bodies” - as you would put it. However, if you look back on those times, you will come to find that the opposite is actually true. Woman during much of that time were not allowed to vote or to have careers. They were second class citizens - properties of men. Sexism was definitely at large.
On the other hand, if you consider many of the indian tribes around the world (many, not all), you will come to find that women are considered to be of great value. They are deeply respected and valued and viewed as sacred because of their ability to bear children. Yet those woman DON’T walk around completely covered up from head to toe. They walk around half naked! And the men around them do not get aroused every second from seeing them like this. Sexism is much less of an issue with these people.

Now, I’m not saying we should all walk around half naked to gain the respect of men. I am not saying that it will gain their respect. All I’m saying is maybe it’s more objective than how you’re telling it, and maybe it’s more about what is socially accepted. Is it socially accepted for woman to wear t shirts, jeans, shorts, mini skirts, tank tops, and bathing suits? Absolutely. Hopefully you can understand the point I’m trying to make here.
  1. I love wearing little clothing. I’m a thin, physically fit young woman who moved to Florida from the city of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I am proud of my beautiful, strong and lean body. It is hot and humid here in Florida and I live by the beach. I love wearing my cute little mini skirts, jean shorts, tight tops, and I LOVE sporting my bikinis to the beach, having fun in the water, and getting a tan. I’m very outdoorsy. I run 3 miles everyday, I like to play, hike, and climb trees. How could I accomplish all this if I had to be confined to wearing dresses and long skirts at all times? It would keep me from being free and doing what I love. What if it’s a hot day out? Am I going to suffer just so I can be perceived as what YOU refer to as “lady like?” Now THAT is sexist. That is in no way good for women, or respecting of woman as an individual, free to go off into the world, play, explore, exercise, and have fun.
  2. I don’t think you are giving men enough credit here. They may be “wired” differently from us woman. Sure, they are a lot more visually oriented, and I know and understand that. But they are not animals. They are human beings with brains, self control, and the ability to make choices. Christian men who are close to me have told me that just because a girl is wearing something small, doesn’t necessarily mean they will automatically be aroused and think dirty thoughts for the next 10 minutes. They have to actually sit there and make the conscious decision to think about them in the most sexual, disrespectful way - it’s not something they have absolutely no control over. They are very capable of not allowing themselves to go there. And I think they are called to make an effort to be chaste in that sense. It’s extremely sexist to make us woman have the soul responsibility over this, and make us be limited to wearing only long dressed and long skirts, despite the temperature and the activities we want to participate in.
  3. I love men. I have a lot of male friends, some of which are very devout Christians, and I have just recently married the most amazing Catholic man in the world. I have never felt like I was being looked at as a “collection of body parts” by any of them. Yes, I have a nice body, I live in a hot place, and so I wear what you would consider to be little clothing, and yet I have very seldom felt disrespected by a man. Quite the opposite actually, men respect me because I make it very clear to them with my body language, the way I live my life, and the way I talk, that I am a conservative girl with morals. There is much more to me than my clothes, and men ARE smart enough to figure that out.
Conclusion: Hopefully these 4 arguments I gave you will open your eyes to the flaws and sexism in your ideal. And hopefully you understand that in no way am I saying that we should all rip our clothes off and pose for playboy. Absolutely not. We still need to keep our sexual private parts covered. But my gosh, “no jeans allowed, no shorts allowed, no skirts exposing the knee, and no pants and no t-shirts” whatsoever?? That is definitely sexist, demeaning to woman, and WAY beyond the boundary of decency.
Wow. Just wow. Great post!! 👍👍👍
 
LittleSoldier -
As I read your last post, I realized that your feelings on casual dress vs. formal dress almost exactly reflect those of my husband. He went to mass this morning wearing a nice pair of jeans and a new polo shirt. It is exactly the type of attire he would wear to work, and he is a professional, an engineer actually. Many people have alluded to business attire as being appropriate, while at the same time rejecting jeans or short-sleeved shirts as being too casual. Yet many of the professions in this day and age require a much more casual wardrobe than in generations past. I am not sure why, but that is the reality. I do not see how casual attire is disrespectful, especially when the casual clothes owned by many are very often the clothes that are in the best and newest condition. 🤷

On to other issues in the thread…
I agree with those who say that revealing clothing is a problem, because we shouldn’t be showing off parts of our body that are private or meant to be revealed only in the safety/intimacy of our homes or bedrooms. But I tend to think that those people who reveal their bodies in that way are only acting upon what they have been taught is right. Girls and women have been repeatedly told that their only value is based upon how well they can sexually stimulate/arouse/please a man, and therefore must dress to “impress”. They are being incredibly obedient, only to an invalid authority. We must love them back to the Lord, and help them to see their worth as a daughter of a King and a child of God. Then they will be able to carry themselves with confidence and poise, and will dress in a manner that honors their convictions. We will never be able to help them find their true value if we label or condemn them.
But it is just plain short-sighted and arrogant, IMO, to condemn a person’s casual attire. Is not modesty also about not being ostentatious? Casual attire is not ostentatious in the least. Most people of modest means are able to find presentable clothes of a casual style and cut, whereas it is difficult and impractical to spend money on a second wardrobe of “Sunday best”. The old concept of Sunday best was that the best dress was reserved for Sundays, until the everyday work dress was worn out and then the Sunday best became the everyday work dress, and when it was possible, a new Sunday best dress was made. People had only two or three dresses at this time. Nowadays, hygiene has improved, we wash our bodies and our clothes more frequently, and we are able to afford more changes of clean clothing. So Sunday best is a concept which has become less relevant, because ALL of our clothing is in much better condition than before. I don’t think that means that we are to then establish an even higher standard of Sunday best. :rolleyes:
 
Emphasis mine:
I love wearing little clothing. ** I love wearing my cute little mini skirts, jean shorts, tight tops, and I LOVE sporting my bikinis to the beach,** having fun in the water, and getting a tan. I’m very outdoorsy. I run 3 miles everyday, I like to play, hike, and climb trees. How could I accomplish all this if I had to be confined to wearing dresses and long skirts at all times? It would keep me from being free and doing what I love. What if it’s a hot day out? Am I going to suffer just so I can be perceived as what YOU refer to as “lady like?” Now THAT is sexist. That is in no way good for women, or respecting of woman as an individual, free to go off into the world, play, explore, exercise, and have fun.
When did “dressing for what you love” become something completely immodest? Debora123, you can certainly do what you love (hiking, swimming, etc) and still be a modest dresser. In fact, it’s your duty to dress modestly as a Catholic woman:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm

Our Lady, one we should certainly emulate in both modesty and humility, revealed to Jacinta at Fatima:

"Certain fashions are introduced which gravely offend my Divine Son."

I was deeply touched to see our Blessed Mother had something to say about modesty! And she said this at Fatima–the early 1900s!

God bless you
 
I’m actually not against dress codes at Mass, and think that would be a good idea. If you’re bringing up the workplace analogy, I know there are many corporations that have dress codes…including the NFL. However, it seems that even in the Vatican, the dress code only addresses immodest clothing that doesn’t cover certain parts of the body. Also, I understand that those not covered up are actually given shawls to wear over their clothes, not just tossed out. Seems a lot of posters would love to just toss out the scantily clad sinners without doing anything to cover them. Now, I recall Jesus saying something about what he’d say, at the Last Judgment, to those who saw Him naked and didn’t clothe Him. Now, He was probably talking mostly about those who went naked because they couldn’t afford clothes, or perhaps had them stolen, like the traveler helped by the Good Samaritan, But He does exist beyond the constraints of time, so maybe He was also talking about those who go naked, or nearly so, just because they don’t know any better.

This topic also reminds me of how some more traditional Catholics have very strict criteria on what is acceptable reason to use NFP. Much as some posters here seem to think the only excuse for not wearing a three piece suit to Mass is to be truly destitute, some think the only excuse for using NFP is to be truly destitute, as in homeless, starving, etc. The lack of charity here reminds me of the lack of charity by those who assume that a couple who says they can’t afford any more children right now must be living it up, taking vacations, owning multiple cars, etc. Therefore insinuating that they are lying, or too stupid to budget for another child, or something like that.
 
2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
This quote sums up the churches position on modesty. We should cover what should be hidden. I don’t see in here anything about women shouldn’t wear pants, etc. This issue is a very hot topic with Catholics, especially traditional Catholics and can be very harmful. My blog deals quite a bit with the extremists in this area as well as other areas that Catholics tend to go overboard. i.e. licit use of NFP, school choice, Mass choice, etc.

thechurchfanatic.blogspot.com
 
Deuteronomy 22:5 states the matter quite succinctly: “A woman shall not be clothed with man’s apparel, neither shall a man use woman’s apparel : for he that doeth these things is abominable before God.”
Miss Linda, you should read my post about this whole thread. I believe it is the last post on page 28.

And by the way, if your quote up above were really true, Joan of Arc would be quite the sinner, wouldn’t she? This is why as Catholics, we do not take the bible literally. Doing so is more of a protestant thing. Us Catholics know that the bible is filled with symbolism. Which is why we look to The Church for answers, not the bible by itself. No where in the Catholic Catechism does it say that it is a sin for women to expose her arms or wear anything other than skirts or dresses that cover the knee.

Just figured I’d let ya know.
 
Miss Linda, you should read my post about this whole thread. I believe it is the last post on page 28.

And by the way, if your quote up above were really true, Joan of Arc would be quite the sinner, wouldn’t she? This is why as Catholics, we do not take the bible literally. Doing so is more of a protestant thing. Us Catholics know that the bible is filled with symbolism. Which is why we look to The Church for answers, not the bible by itself. No where in the Catholic Catechism does it say that it is a sin for women to expose her arms or wear anything other than skirts or dresses that cover the knee.

Just figured I’d let ya know.
I’m sure as practicing Catholics, we know that St Gianna Beretta Molla was a Catholic wife, mother, and Medical Doctor that choose to give birth to her youngest child after being advised (in 1962) that if she didn’t abort, she would surely die. She choose life for her daughter and did die a few days after giving birth to full term Gianna Emmanuala, who herself grew up to be a prolife physician!!

And if anyone cares to follow this link (since I can’t figure out how to post a picture on here), you can see SAINT Gianna Beretta Molla in (GASP!!!) a pair of ski PANTS!!! :

saintgianna.org/loveroflife.htm and there is not only one, but TWO pictures of her!

Here is the statue of her at the US shrine (in a dress with SHORT sleeves):
saintgianna.org/stgiannashrine.htm

And here is an actual photo of her in short sleeves:
apostolstwo.diecezja.kalisz.pl/MollaFoto/gianna_025.jpg

So, if some Catholics say that women should NEVER wear pants, how do they explain that a CANONIZED SAINT wore them? Especially when we have pictures and home movies of St Gianna? I don’t think there is a Christian out there who would say St Gianna was anything less than a wonderful and holy role model for all women!
 
:eek::confused:

Why does it appear that you are ranking expensive attire as better than inexpensive attire?
Why does it appear that you are equating expensive attire with modest attire?
Why are you assuming that the onus for not sinning is upon the woman in this scenario? (It is true that we should not present stumbling blocks to our Christian brethren, but when a person sins, they may not point the finger at the other and say “But she tempted me to do it!” That was Adam’s mistake.)
Why do you assume that there is a hierarchy of sinning with regards to attire? It appears that you are saying that ostentatious dress can be a problem, but is less a problem than either over-casual dress, which is less a problem than immodest dress.
How can you be so sure that you are equipped to accurately judge how God views each of these problems, and how can you be confident that God has some sort of ranking for them? The lessons I remember most keenly from my Christian education had to do with God judging the heart, and for us to use prayer and charity to address a person who makes a sinful/scandalous mistake, and trust in the Holy Spirit to convict a person who is sinning. I remember nothing about Christians being instructed to discuss hierarchy of sin/scandal and thereby judge each other (and yes, I do feel that casting aspersions upon the character of others because of their mistakes in dressing is a form of judging).
Replying to each point at a time:
  • I most certainly am not. Did you read what I quoted? My point was that a vain and prideful person who wears flashy clothes just to show off does not create a problem for Church-goers if that person wears clothing that isn’t revealing.
  • Clearly I am not.
  • Why did I know someone was going to say that? Well let’s just forget about encouraging men and women to dress more modestly! It’s our fault we are tempted! I am not saying a sin would be on her head, my point was that by her lack of thought for others, that woman would be putting others in danger of impure sins. If a woman walked into a room full of men naked, she could possibly commit a grave sin by gravely endangering others deliberately.
Btw, I am a guy, so if you want to add the opposite circumstances of a woman having difficulty with immodestly dressed men, please do so. I can’t do it, because I don’t know how women react to that sort of thing.
  • The overdressing person may be vain, but at least he/she is dressing well for such a special occasion. The underdressing person is displaying his/her laziness and his/her lack of desire to be dress well for a special occasion. The immodestly dressed person is not only displaying laziness, but also a lack of respect for those around him/her by subjecting them to visual temptations during a time where such distractions should not be.
  • I am not sure of how God views such things. All I know is that people in the past cared a lot more about dressing well for Mass than we do today, and I find that sad. The reason guys walk around in backwards hats and “prison pants” is that they have been disconnected from the concept of appropriate attire, and they even see things like tucked in shirts and suits as “stuffy” or some other such nonsense.
CountrySinger, thanks for a great illustration of why it is uncharitable to assume that someone who dresses in a certain way must be guilty of moral turpitude or negligence.

Congrats on your engagement, BTW.

I also have a question for those who have repeatedly bemoaned the choice of Mass attire of your fellow parishioners. While some of you have hinted at it, no one so far has actually said it is a sin for a woman to wear a spaghetti-strap dress to Mass, or for a man to wear a tank top and shorts to Mass. Do you think it is a sin? If not, I am really having trouble understanding why you feel so justified in your judgment.

I used to know an Archie Bunker type of man who was known for making uncharitable comments about women as well as those who were of a different ethnicity than he was. Once a young woman of Hispanic ethnicity announced at a party that she was pregnant. Instead of rejoicing, the man assumed she must be unmarried and said all sorts of uncharitable things about how sinful she must be to announce her sin in front of everyone and expect a positive response, he even said “I bet she doesn’t even know who the father is!”. This woman was actually married, but even if she hadn’t been, I found it very telling that this was the first response this man had to her announcement. Even if he had been “right”, he still would have been guilty of prejudice and bigotry. Now, I know many Hispanics are devout Catholics, but unfortunately there are many single Hispanic mothers where I live and apparently this man had developed a prejudice that all Hispanics are promiscuous “breeders” who depend on welfare to support themselves.
I can’t say if it is a sin or not because something has to be more than wrong to be a sin, it has to be done deliberately. However, I would definitely say it is wrong for a woman to wear something like that to Mass unless she had NO choice in the matter, and I would also say it would be wrong for a man to wear a tank top and shorts to Mass. People dress well to make a good impression for other people, why not God?

As for your story. That’s a sad thing that man did, but I do not act like that. What I want is for people to pay more attention to dressing well, and for people to stop making excuses for not being able to do it. Yeah times have changed, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to dress in a sloppy manner. If men would just start tucking in their shirts, and if women would stop wearing low v-neck type shirts, that would be a great start.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top