Immoral vaccines

[Orogeny]

How many people in your family died from polio? Tracing our family back to the 1700’s, not one.

Lucky you. As far as I know, no one in my family died from polio. I did have an uncle who had to wear leg braces most of his life because he was paralized by the disease.

But hey, at least no one pumped a bunch of drugs in him. That would have been much worse.

Peace

Tim

 

[puzzleannie]

to OP
did the Archbishop’s reply note whether or not his Catholic schools are required to follow state and local laws on vaccinations and other health issues?

that is the case here, and in the states where my grandchildren attend Catholic schools.

IMO parents have the right to refuse vaccinations for their own children, for any reason. They do not, however, have the right to insist their children be allowed to enter any venue where their refusal to vaccinate endangers other children. Chicken pox is not harmless an adult, especially one with a compromised immune system, diabetes or many other conditions who comes in contact with a child so infected can contract shingles which is exceedingly painful, has lasting life-long effects, and in those adults can kill.

If you choose not to vaccinate you must abide by all the consequences, including the possibility that you will have to homeschool your children. You cannot expect the state to grant exemptions on a religious basis unless the leader of your religious body makes it a faith-based requirement. This is similar to conscientious objectors.

 

[PRmerger]

Hum you just did.

Nope. I won’t discuss the alleged “data” regarding any link between autism and vaccinating our children.

I will, however, discuss whether vaccinating our children is immoral or not, given the origin of the vaccine which immunizes us against varicella.

 

[Bookcat]

Nope. I won’t discuss the alleged “data” regarding any link between autism and vaccinating our children.

I will, however, discuss whether vaccinating our children is immoral or not, given the origin of the vaccine which immunizes us against varicella.

…no one is asking you to do so (only those who wish to discuss things…discuss them)

But the ongoing research is from no fly by night group…or researcher.

It is a very very highly credentialed scientist.

(but please do not lump her work in among conspiracy theories…)

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

UGH…now I’m just mad. Once again there is some controversy over something I figured shouldn’t even be an issue! Now next time a vaccine has to be given I have to either sound like a madman asking some part-time nurse if it’s fetus tissue clean who probably wouldn’t know anyways, or just not recieve vaccines and join the others responsible for allowing epidemics of thought dead viruses to be released into society.

Honestly, ignorance is bliss. The more you learn the more you have to look like some oddity just to remain in the right light for the Catholic Church.

 

[Bookcat]

UGH…now I’m just mad. Once again there is some controversy over something I figured shouldn’t even be an issue! Now next time a vaccine has to be given I have to either sound like a madman asking some part-time nurse if it’s fetus tissue clean who probably wouldn’t know anyways, or just not recieve vaccines and join the others responsible for allowing epidemics of thought dead viruses to be released into society.

Honestly, ignorance is bliss. The more you learn the more you have to look like some oddity just to remain in the right light for the Catholic Church.

Just look it up on the list…

Just like you have to do in other areas of life…car recalls…egg recalls…etc

and some have alternatives to boot.

 

[PRmerger]

…no one is asking you to do so (only those who wish to discuss things…discuss them)

Fair enough. I thought you were referring me to a site that provided research regarding this alleged link between vaccines and autism.

(but please do not lump her work in among conspiracy theories…)

I’m just saying. Each of those above groups mentioned (moon-landing hoax, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, 6000 year old earth etc) has “credentialed scientists” and “scientific data” to back up their whacky theories.

 

[Bookcat]

I’m just saying. Each of those above groups mentioned (moon-landing hoax, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, 6000 year old earth etc) has “credentialed scientists” and “scientific data” to back up their whacky theories.

Yes I know…(now while I do not agree with the 6000 year old earth thing …they are not forbidden to hold such…just noting this for those out there who do…etc)

BUT Not in the sense she is credentialed! just read…

Oh by the way

She was just on EWTN for she was involved in getting that court ruling against the use of embryonic stem cells…and is still fighting…

She is a very well respected scientist…

 

[PRmerger]

Yes I know…(now while I do not agree with the 6000 year old earth thing …they are not forbidden to hold such…just noting this for those out there who do…etc)

What? Who is not forbidden to hold such?

 

[Jea9]

Could we expand this discussion to include what are the moral follow-on actions after one has decided not to vaccinate one’s children? Can you refuse to vaccinate and then morally send your children into the general population of a school?

This is my thought. We are not vaccinating our children, but we are also not sending them to school or to daycares. If we were, we might do things differently. I agree with puzzleannie, that people who wish not to vaccinate, should not expect schools to cater to them. And that is from someone who won’t vaccinate. (baby #1 is only 3 months old)

Yeah, back in the good old days of polio our ancestors didn’t pump their children full of drugs. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to do so.

Peace

Tim

Did you know that before the polio vaccine was created there were only 20,000 cases of the disease a year. That’s a ridiculously small number compared to how many people are in the US; we aren’t talking about numbers like with smallpox or the plague. And of those cases, about 1,000 were killed. 95% of the people who got polio didn’t even have symptoms, only 1 in 200 were paralyzed. I’m not saying that one death is not a bad thing, or that one case of a disease isn’t sad, I’m just putting it into perspective here.

This is from babycenter.com, since they are telling you to get the vaccine, I trusted their research on this.

 

[puzzleannie]

Did you know that before the polio vaccine was created there were only 20,000 cases of the disease a year. That’s a ridiculously small number compared to how many people are in the US; we aren’t talking about numbers like with smallpox or the plague. And of those cases, about 1,000 were killed. 95% of the people who got polio didn’t even have symptoms, only 1 in 200 were paralyzed. I’m not saying that one death is not a bad thing, or that one case of a disease isn’t sad, I’m just putting it into perspective here.

.

those may be averages

from wikipedia
"

In children, paralysis due to polio occurs in 1/1000 cases, while in adults, paralysis occurs in 1/75 cases.[16] By 1950, the peak age incidence of paralytic poliomyelitis in the United States had shifted from infants to children aged 5 to 9 years; about one-third of the cases were reported in persons over 15 years of age.[17] Accordingly, the rate of paralysis and death due to polio infection also increased during this time.[1] In the United States, the 1952 polio epidemic would be the worst outbreak in the nation’s history. Of the nearly 58,000 cases reported that year 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis.[18]

the point being made is the decision on whether or not to vaccinate properly takes into account the relative risk, of contracting the disease and also of possible lasting effects, not only to the child, but to unvaccinated persons with whom she may come in contact, particularly those who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons (including pregnant women). Vaccines work when their “break even” point is reached, that is when a sufficient percentage of the population of the at-risk group is vaccinated so that isolated cases cannot spread among that population.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m not sure if this is a banned topic…or only in Family Life.

Polio WAS a big deal. The stats on baby center refer to the most serious forms of Polio.

polio.emedtv.com/polio/polio-history.html

History of Polio: Pre-Vaccine Era
For the next hundred years, epidemics of polio disease were reported from developed countries in the Northern Hemisphere each summer and fall. These epidemics became increasingly severe, and the average age of people affected rose. The increasingly older age of people with primary polio infection increased both the severity of the disease and number of deaths from polio. In 1952, polio reached a peak in the United States, with more than 21,000 cases of paralytic polio.
In the immediate pre-vaccine era, improved sanitation allowed less frequent exposure and increased the age of primary infection. Boosting of immunity from natural exposure became more infrequent, and the number of susceptible people increased, which ultimately resulted in the occurrence of polio epidemics, with 13,000 to 20,000 paralytic cases reported annually.

Post-Vaccine Era
Polio’s history changed following the licensing of a polio vaccine. In the early vaccine era, the incidence of polio dramatically decreased after the introduction of inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) in 1955. The decline continued following oral polio vaccine (OPV) introduction in 1961. In 1960, a total of 2,525 paralytic cases were reported, compared with 61 in 1965.

20,000 little kids paralyzed each year is a serious, serious health crisis.

 

[Jea9]

those may be averages

from wikipedia
"
the point being made is the decision on whether or not to vaccinate properly takes into account the relative risk, of contracting the disease and also of possible lasting effects, not only to the child, but to unvaccinated persons with whom she may come in contact, particularly those who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons (including pregnant women). Vaccines work when their “break even” point is reached, that is when a sufficient percentage of the population of the at-risk group is vaccinated so that isolated cases cannot spread among that population.

Ah, yeah, like I said, I didn’t research their numbers because it seemed like it was in their best interest to be accurate since they were advocating vaccinations.

I’m not sure if this is a banned topic…or only in Family Life.

Polio WAS a big deal. The stats on baby center refer to the most serious forms of Polio.

polio.emedtv.com/polio/polio-history.html

20,000 little kids paralyzed each year is a serious, serious health crisis.

I don’t know, it said 95% of the reported cases (which I assume were the 20,000 it noted) did not have any symptoms at all or only mild flu-like symptoms including coughing, etc.

I agree that 20,000 kids a year being paralyzed is a big deal, that didn’t seem like what the article was saying though.

 

[Orogeny]

I don’t know, it said 95% of the reported cases (which I assume were the 20,000 it noted) did not have any symptoms at all or only mild flu-like symptoms including coughing, etc.

I agree that 20,000 kids a year being paralyzed is a big deal, that didn’t seem like what the article was saying though.

Nope. Read that again. That was 21,000 cases of paralytic polio. In other words, 20,000 children paralyzed. Doesn’t sound insignificant to me.

Peace

Tim

 

[Jea9]

Nope. Read that again. That was 21,000 cases of paralytic polio. In other words, 20,000 children paralyzed. Doesn’t sound insignificant to me.

Peace

Tim

Actually I was talking about the article I quoted. I see from Mary Gail’s source that it shows different statistics. I noticed AFTER I submitted it that it looked like I was questioning her source, I wasn’t. On babycenter it said that 95% of the cases showed no symptoms, or mild flu-like symptoms. I didn’t question that source because, like I said, they were promoting the vaccination so it seemed in their best interest to be accurate. However, looking at Mary Gail’s and puzzleannies, it looks like babycenter is quite conservative.

This doesn’t change my mind, but it may change other’s, so it’s good to have the accurate numbers.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Yes. If I seem incredulous, and keep asking the same questions that have already been answered, it is because I am sick with horror. This has been going on for years, I allowed my children to be vaccinated, and I never knew. One of the links said that the inclusion of aborted fetal material was never “hidden” from the public, but frankly it never occurred to me to ask. Now, do I have to ask about every medical treatment “Does this derive from murdered babies?” Can you understand that even if somebody sitting in their chair in an ivory tower has some rationalization for me, it doesn’t help, it makes it worse. The people who are rationalizing, why weren’t they giving sermons, spreading pamphlets, letting us know many years ago? One of the links said that we should “put pressure” on the pharmaceutical companies to provide morally acceptable alternatives. Well, the only pressure that these companies will respond to is pressure in the pocket book- if we refuse to use these evil and depraved products.

I beg that no one tries to respond to me by telling my why it is really all right to use these vaccines. All your reassurances add to my deep distress.

---

No, I do agree with you & I was equally horrified when I learned the source of the rubella vaccine years ago. I and most of my children had already been injected with it but I read an article about a protest at a Catholic school in England which alerted me to the problem before my youngest child was vaccinated.
We easily received a religious exemption & our local health dept was very respectful, helpful & forthcoming in giving us printed material which documented the fetal source of the cell line used to create the rubella vaccine.We also were able to receive separate doses of the red measles & mumps vaccines which-at least at that time-were ethically manufactured.
I don’t think we’d now be in the middle of a national debate re. embryonic stem cell research & “therapeutic” cloning & the rest of the attacks on the sanctity of life if the groundwork hadn’t been laid down years before.It’s a constant chipping away at our moral codes & the horror that you & I feel is healthy & a safeguard against callousness.God forbid we should lose it.

 

[Rach620]

Thanks to all who have posted links on this thread. This is an especially important topic to me, as we’ll be making vaccine schedule-related decisions for our little one next year.

I wanted to post another resource that I didn’t see linked early on in this thread (sorry if I missed it!). In 2005 in response to inquiries from an American woman on this very question, the Pontifical Academy for Life addressed the origins of individual vaccines which came from aborted fetal tissue: cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm

There is also a lengthy discussion of the morality of using such vaccines and whether it constitutes cooperation in evil.:

Therefore, doctors and fathers of families have a duty to take recourse to alternative vaccines13 (if they exist), putting pressure on the political authorities and health systems so that other vaccines without moral problems become available. They should take recourse, if necessary, to the use of conscientious objection 14 with regard to the use of vaccines produced by means of cell lines of aborted human foetal origin.

Equally, they should oppose by all means (in writing, through the various associations, mass media, etc.) the vaccines which do not yet have morally acceptable alternatives, creating pressure so that alternative vaccines are prepared, which are not connected with the abortion of a human foetus, and requesting rigorous legal control of the pharmaceutical industry producers.

As regards the diseases against which there are no alternative vaccines which are available and ethically acceptable, it is right to abstain from using these vaccines if it can be done without causing children, and indirectly the population as a whole, to undergo significant risks to their health. However, if the latter are exposed to considerable dangers to their health, vaccines with moral problems pertaining to them may also be used on a temporary basis.

The moral reason is that the duty to avoid passive material cooperation is not obligatory if there is grave inconvenience. Moreover, we find, in such a case, a. proportional reason, in order to accept the use of these vaccines in the presence of the danger of favouring the spread of the pathological agent, due to the lack of vaccination of children. This is particularly true in the case of vaccination against German measles15.

In any case, there remains a moral duty to continue to fight and to employ every lawful means in order to make life difficult for the pharmaceutical industries which act unscrupulously and unethically. However, the burden of this important battle cannot and must not fall on innocent children and on the health situation of the population - especially with regard to pregnant women.