IMO... It's better to be Protestant, but tell me why it's better to be Catholic

[CWBetts]

This is very similar to historic Protestantism which reconciles Ephesians 2 and James 2. You are making a distinction between professing Christ and one in which God circumcises the heart. Since I do not believe that baptism necessarily converts a sinner, then God changes the heart through the Spirit. Please consider the end of Romans chapter 2.

You mean the part that says that “doers of the law will be justified”? That does not do much to back up the Sola Fide heresy

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

You mean the part that says that “doers of the law will be justified”? That does not do much to back up the Sola Fide heresy

What’s this sola fide obsession… I’m not sure if I ever posted faith alone, have I?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Excerpt taken from EWTN

This is how the Old Catholic Encyclopedia defines the sin of presumption: "It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them."

So yeah it is a sin in this context. Seems to me that this is the definition of the statement " I know I’m going to heaven, just because Jesus did all the work for me so I don’t have to lift a finger"

“That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” - Rom. 4:16-25

Relying on God’s mercy and power alone IS faith…ad God’s promise will never let you down.

 

[CWBetts]

“That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” - Rom. 4:16-25

Relying on God’s mercy and power alone IS faith…ad God’s promise will never let you down.

But you can turn away from Him

 

[TriuneUnity]

But you can turn away from Him

There’s no question that we can turn away from Him. Not trusting His promise that Jesus died for your sins and was raised for your justification, thus doing everything necessary for your reconcilation with the Father, would be turning away from Him. It would be calling God a liar.

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by Carlan
Ask for enlightenment and understanding.

***What do you do as a Protestant when you fall into mortal sin.
Are you telling me that once you are justified that no matter what you do, even fall into deadly sin,you cannot be separated from God. How does it work for you, what recourse do you have.***We in the Apostolic Church are given the gift of sanctifying grace in Baptism, Justification,
it is a true eradication of sin and a true sanctification and renewal of the inner man. It is a process of growing in holiness, If for whatever reason we fall back into sin,(and it happens to all of us unfortunately) we have a merciful Father and if we repent he forgives us and restores us to himself, Catholics have the sacramental life to live by to keep us persevering in God love. That to me is what is lacking in Protestantism.Dear God shine you Light on the full Truth.Carlan

Would you like me to pray for enlightenment and understanding to understand official Catholic doctrine? Or, do you want me to pray for enlightenment and understanding for the truth. In Catholic theology, did Jesus actually propitiate or pay the penalty for sins? If so, why would Jesus pay for certain sins and not other sins on the cross? The process of growing in holiness is the work of God in us, making us more like Christ to the praise of His glorious transforming grace.

Here’s a tough one. If God knew which Catholics would apostate and die with unforgiven mortal sin, then did Jesus actually pay the price for any of the venial sins committed by those Catholics who died or will die in unforgiven mortal sin. If Christ actually paid the price, and bore the penalty of mortal sins for the Catholic, then mortal sin would not be mortal.

First off how about answering the questions in my post, instead of evading by coming back with questions of your own, that is not the way the game is played, are you not familiar with the tennis court and the boxing ring?Carlan

 

[Roblox84]

Isn’t presumption a sin?

Yes, considering though that one doesn’t actually know where they will be until they are judged.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Relying on faith alone is leaving out the rest of the story (hey that should be a program! )

Anyway, faith is only half the truth. We both agree that Jesus did atone for our sins, past, present and future. We both agree that he did his part in our salvation. What you’re forgetting is the rest of the equation in there. He left us with the burden of atoning for our own sins by doing the will of the Father. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Jesus redeemed us and provided for our salvation. The gates of heaven were opened to us but that doesn’t mean that someone can walk right in, calling it home without obeying the will of God. There’s no " Free Get Into Heaven" pass.

I don’t know how many times this verse has to be drummed again and again until it’s understood but here goes: Sorry for the repetition but it seems that some people here have blinders on.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

 

[Roblox84]

Every time we sin mortally, we turn away from God and deny him, and we become apostates through that act. Mortal sin isn’t in fact so much a “sin” as it is denying God, and denying His sanctifying Grace.

It’s no different than if you, a Protestant, were to decide you no longer believe in Christ as your Saviour, that you lost your faith. Do you think you remain in a state of Grace, and have God’s grace open to you when you deny it? Or are you saying once a believer, always a believer and that apostasy is no longer possible?

Mortal sin is denying God’s dominion over us. It us turning away the cup of Grace. It is becoming a de facto apostate.

To recover that Grace we need to reaffirm our belief in Christ’s work on the Cross. In terms of “works”, the only “work” necessary for salvation is the work of reaffirming our faith in God, after we turn away from Him; so that we may receive his Grace and drink from His cup. We believe we can achieve this through the Sacrament of Reconciliation; which is very aptly named, because we reconcile with Someone we denied.

Protestants seem to think they are “born again” only once, and can no longer lose their faith.

We feel rather than you CAN lose your faith, and you demonstrate it when you sin mortally, by choosing self over God, by elevating yourself above God, which is nothing but blasphemy by another name.

Therefore a Catholic is “born again” on very nearly a daily basis, because mortal sin is just that, mortal to the soul, a dead end, a complete denial of God, an apostasy.

It must be nice knowing that if Hitler was once saved and did what he did, he still remains in good standing with God, because “everyone’s a sinner”.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Originally Posted by Carlan
Ask for enlightenment and understanding.

***What do you do as a Protestant when you fall into mortal sin.
Are you telling me that once you are justified that no matter what you do, even fall into deadly sin,you cannot be separated from God. How does it work for you, what recourse do you have.***We in the Apostolic Church are given the gift of sanctifying grace in Baptism, Justification,
it is a true eradication of sin and a true sanctification and renewal of the inner man. It is a process of growing in holiness, If for whatever reason we fall back into sin,(and it happens to all of us unfortunately) we have a merciful Father and if we repent he forgives us and restores us to himself, Catholics have the sacramental life to live by to keep us persevering in God love. That to me is what is lacking in Protestantism.Dear God shine you Light on the full Truth.Carlan

First off how about answering the questions in my post, instead of evading by coming back with questions of your own, that is not the way the game is played, are you not familiar with the tennis court and the boxing ring?Carlan

I will try my best to answer your questions but please repost them since there are too many posts to find which questions were not answered. There’s a difference in the sport of tennis and boxing. In tennis, we can rally back in forth if I did not serve an ace. In boxing, I can knock you out with one blow… to doctrine of forensic justification… we can have fun while we debate since at the end of the day, we are One in Christ! :blackeye:

 

[Carlan]

There’s no question that we can turn away from Him. Not trusting His promise that Jesus died for ***your ***sins and was raised for your justification, thus doing everything necessary for your reconciliation with the Father, would be turning away from Him. It would be calling God a liar.

yes,you are right, that is what we all do when we sin, and when we sin seriously, ( mortal) without repentance before death we go to hell. Most Christians persevering in the sacramental life become remorseful and turn back to God for forgiveness and reconciliation when that happens. In the Apostolic Church we follow what Christ commissioned his Apostles to do in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I understand the the Lutheran Church has a formula for doing just that.God bless, Carlan

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Relying on faith alone is leaving out the rest of the story (hey that should be a program! )

Anyway, faith is only half the truth. We both agree that Jesus did atone for our sins, past, present and future. We both agree that he did his part in our salvation. What you’re forgetting is the rest of the equation in there. He left us with the burden of atoning for our own sins by doing the will of the Father. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Jesus redeemed us and provided for our salvation. The gates of heaven were opened to us but that doesn’t mean that someone can walk right in, calling it home without obeying the will of God. There’s no " Free Get Into Heaven" pass.

I don’t know how many times this verse has to be drummed again and again until it’s understood but here goes: Sorry for the repetition but it seems that some people here have blinders on.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

Protestant believe that Christ atoned for our past, present, and future sins. Why would Jesus only pay for past and present sins, and not future sins? Was the work on the cross too weak to pay for them all? How are we to work out our salvation in fear and trembling? Or, who is working in us while we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling. All of Scripture is the complete story.

 

[Carlan]

Relying on faith alone is leaving out the rest of the story (hey that should be a program! )

Anyway, faith is only half the truth. We both agree that Jesus did atone for our sins, past, present and future. We both agree that he did his part in our salvation. What you’re forgetting is the rest of the equation in there. He left us with the burden of atoning for our own sins by doing the will of the Father. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Jesus redeemed us and provided for our salvation. The gates of heaven were opened to us but that doesn’t mean that someone can walk right in, calling it home without obeying the will of God. There’s no " Free Get Into Heaven" pass.

I don’t know how many times this verse has to be drummed again and again until it’s understood but here goes: Sorry for the repetition but it seems that some people here have blinders on.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

AMEN!!!

 

[Loboto-Me]

It must be nice knowing that if Hitler was once saved and did what he did, he still remains in good standing with God, because “everyone’s a sinner”.

Where do you get that he remained in good standing with God. You do know that God still loved Hitler don’t you? He would have accepted him with open arms had he really been contrite and asked for forgiveness. I’m not saying Hitler didn’t in the end, but if the story of his murdering his family then himself in the end is true, then we have a basic idea that any forgiveness he MIGHT have received from God would have been negated with yet another sin (murder).

OraLabora’s (hope I spelled it right) statement reflects properly Catholic beliefs as far as I can tell.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Relying on faith alone is leaving out the rest of the story (hey that should be a program! )

Anyway, faith is only half the truth. We both agree that Jesus did atone for our sins, past, present and future. We both agree that he did his part in our salvation. What you’re forgetting is the rest of the equation in there. He left us with the burden of atoning for our own sins by doing the will of the Father. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

If Jesus left me with any burden that I must do in order to be reconciled with God, then He is not a Savior. We cannot atone for our sins. Jesus didn’t do His part, He accomplished it all “because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.” - Rom. 8:2-4

 

[CWBetts]

Protestant believe that Christ atoned for our past, present, and future sins. Why would Jesus only pay for past and present sins, and not future sins? Was the work on the cross too weak to pay for them all? How are we to work out our salvation in fear and trembling? Or, who is working in us while we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling. All of Scripture is the complete story.

All of Scripture is NOT the complete story. Scripture removed from its proper context of Tradition leads to unfortunate events like the Reformation

 

[Loboto-Me]

If Jesus left me with any burden that I must do in order to be reconciled with God, then He is not a Savior. We cannot atone for our sins. Jesus didn’t do His part, He accomplished it all “because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.” - Rom. 8:2-4

What I don’t understand is why in the world would Jesus (resurected) tell Apostles this:

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

If Jesus felt that we didn’t have a stake at our own salvation, He wouldn’t care about sin since He’d already have taken care of it all through his crucifixion some days prior.

 

[TriuneUnity]

What I don’t understand is why in the world would Jesus (resurected) tell Apostles this:

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

If Jesus felt that we didn’t have a stake at our own salvation, He wouldn’t care about sin since He’d already have taken care of it all through his crucifixion some days prior.

I am not sure what the quotation from St. John has to do with it, directly. Yes, Holy Absolution is one of the means by which faith is created in the heart. Absolution is the message of the gospel (as are Baptism and the Lord’s Supper). Faith is not created in a vaccuum… it comes by means of word and sacrament.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

All of Scripture is NOT the complete story. Scripture removed from its proper context of Tradition leads to unfortunate events like the Reformation

Good point, and here’s my revision. All of Scripture when properly understood with tradition that is true… is the complete story. We must reject traditions of men when understanding the Scriptures, but humbly use traditions that are true when coming to the Scriptures for truth.

 

[maesoph]

I am very glad that I am Catholic because of the Theology Of The Body (TOB). It absolutely ROCKS. If you have a good marriage, you will catch on to TOB easily. If not, then you probably won’t get it.