IMO... It's better to be Protestant, but tell me why it's better to be Catholic

[TriuneUnity]

If justification is through faith “alone” and works are, as you say, not just Levitical ritualistic works but indeed good works in the Ten Commandments sense, how does one account for the idea that the early church was very much into works and penances? There were strict ideas about sin after baptism being very serious and damning in the early days. After a while, and not much time at that, public confession and very strict penances were developed to deal with the sins of the community. Reading Augustine and the early Christians I’ve read, works played a huge role in the salvation process. What do you say to Catholics who tell Lutherans that the first 1,500 years or so until Luther came, Christianity was a blend of works and faith? They would ask, what about those Christians that wallowed through the first 1,500 years without the faith-alone Lutheran concept?

Just a question I rarely hear answered. Thanks!

For the sake of brevity, gurney, I would direct you here bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php as it addresses the question you ask from a confessional perspective. To say that the church always taught the Lutheran concept of justification would do a disservice to both the fathers and the reformers (in the sense that the reformers did develop the doctrine). However, one can see numerous references in the fathers that the works of the saints are not for the purpose of justification (see the writings of St. Ambrose on the subject here angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.ambrose.html)

As to what it means that for the first 1500 works were emphasized… One does not need to hold to the doctrine of sola fide to be justified. Faith in Christ justifies, not faith in sola fide. Therefore, the average Christian could lay his head down at night knowing that Christ was his savior from sin. I cannot deny that many practices of the church over the centuries let the doctrine of justification be confused by traditions that were never part of biblical revelation. In such instances, those traditions need to be compared to Scripture, as no father has greater authority on the subject than St. Paul.

 

[TriuneUnity]

You really need to work on exegetical skills. You are approaching this as “We are saved by faith alone. How can I twist Romans to make it work?” We know that we are not saved by faith alone, because the only time in the whole of Scriptures that mentions the phrase “faith alone” is to say that we are NOT saved by faith alone. Give up already.

Ah, yes, the rule of… “When I cannot answer the question, revert to ad hominem.”

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

We are unified on the points where we agree, which are many. But again, don’t gloss over the differences. Your denial of the sacraments is a very, very big deal.

As for trhe orthodox, we have very few doctrinal differences with them and they have the same 7 valid sacraments. The issues are really in terms of church governance (their acceptance of the Pope as supreme head versus first among equals). Unity with them is much easier.

I believe in the two sacraments revealed in the Scriptures. How can the issue of final authority be a minor issue between Catholics and Orthodox Christians? it is my understanding that the Orthodox churches claim to be the One True Church which nullifies the Catholic Church’s claim to be the One True Church.

 

[CWBetts]

Ah, yes, the rule of… “When I cannot answer the question, revert to ad hominem.”

I have explained ad nauseum that Paul used several senses to the word “law” which you have never once addressed. As for the ad hominem, what goes around comes around. You have personally attacked me as well. I suggest you get back to studying the Scriptures instead of the heretic Luther.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

I am so glad that Jesus reigns in my heart and life and it does not matter to Him if I am Catholic or protestant or whatever. It is all about Jesus not the name on the door. I love all people regardless of their religion. We all need to appreciate all believers in Christ, or we ain’t gonna make it to see our wonderful Savior. We will be judged by our love and actions or inactions towards each other not the name on the door. I praise God for His love and grace to me in spite of myself sometimes…

Brown bag happy face Christians unite everywhere!

 

[TriuneUnity]

I have explained ad nauseum that Paul used several senses to the word “law” which you have never once addressed. As for the ad hominem, what goes around comes around. You have personally attacked me as well. I suggest you get back to studying the Scriptures instead of the heretic Luther.

Can you point out to where I attacked you personally?

I did address it several times by pointing out that works of the law referring to ceremonial law does not fit the context. You have yet to address how the entire world is captive to sin as Romans 3:20 states, if “works of the law” refers to ceremonial law.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hi Triune,

Just a question I’d like your take on. It’s not an inflammatory or combative or argumentative question, just something I’d like your perspective on as an intelligent, well-read Lutheran…

gurney, I would also point you here, for Chrysostom’s treatment of the subject angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.chrysostomjustification.html, and also here, which contains several references to the church fathers reformationtoday.tripod.com/chemnitz/id46.html. Bear in mind, though, I am not claiming that the fathers were “Protestant” on justification. Only that the concept later developed by the Lutheran reformers, and initially stated by Paul, was present.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

What you have to remember is that we do not hold that our righteousness is our own. Any righteousness we have is a gift from God.

But the basis of your righteousness is a cooperation of God and man to maintain your status of adopted child of God. All Christians understand that we must press on with much struggle in this life by the power of God in us, persevering to the end. However, our relationship to God as Heavenly Father is based on the righteousness of Christ alone. If our privileged status was based on our progress of personal transformation, then nobody would be able to call on God as Abba Father in this world… because all Christians struggle with sin in this life. God still requires sinless perfection to have a restored relationship with Him as His redeemed children. Do you believe you are able to approach God in this life as a sinner-saint? Do you see yourself bouncing from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, back and forth depending on the season of life you are in?

 

[paul_c]

Are you saying that the assurance of a Catholic is determined on how they are doing on a particular day? If appears to be an introspective walk, as compared to having faith in what God has done for us in Christ to secure our relationship with Him once and for all. So in Catholic theology, it is not possible to know if a sinner has been eternally forgiven and adopted into the family of God since your citizenship in the Kingdom of God is not determined until you die, correct?

For a Catholic, life is a journey toward or away from God. At the end of life, you need to be pointing toward God and in the state of Grace. And you are correct, we never know whether we are saved until we die and are judged by the only judge that matters, Jesus Christ. That is why we must perservere to the end.

In my experience, Protestants are very worried about being saved, always looking for that assurance that they are going to heaven. Catholics don’t think that way. You would never here the question for a Catholic " are you saved?" We simply try to love and leave the judgement to Jesus and we know in the end that we will not be worthy, but will require his mercy.

 

[tweetymom]

For a Catholic, life is a journey toward or away from God. At the end of life, you need to be pointing toward God and in the state of Grace. And you are correct, we never know whether we are saved until we die and are judged by the only judge that matters, Jesus Christ. That is why we must perservere to the end.

In my experience, Protestants are very worried about being saved, always looking for that assurance that they are going to heaven. Catholics don’t think that way. You would never here the question for a Catholic " are you saved?" We simply try to love and leave the judgement to Jesus and we know in the end that we will not be worthy, but will require his mercy.

I don’t have a problem with my salvation. I know without a doubt that I am saved.

 

[paul_c]

I believe in the two sacraments revealed in the Scriptures. How can the issue of final authority be a minor issue between Catholics and Orthodox Christians? it is my understanding that the Orthodox churches claim to be the One True Church which nullifies the Catholic Church’s claim to be the One True Church.

All 7 are revealed in scripture?. What 2 are you referring to?

The Catholic church recognizes the Orthodox sacraments and that they teach the same way to heaven. There are only minor doctrinal differences.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

For a Catholic, life is a journey toward or away from God. At the end of life, you need to be pointing toward God and in the state of Grace. And you are correct, we never know whether we are saved until we die and are judged by the only judge that matters, Jesus Christ. That is why we must perservere to the end.

In my experience, Protestants are very worried about being saved, always looking for that assurance that they are going to heaven. Catholics don’t think that way. You would never here the question for a Catholic " are you saved?" We simply try to love and leave the judgement to Jesus and we know in the end that we will not be worthy, but will require his mercy.

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews

If Catholics do not approach the throne of grace on the basis of our great high priest alone, then what good is Jesus for you as the sufficient mediator between God and man? If you don’t know if your relationship has been restored between you the sinner and God as Holy God and judge, why approach Him with confidence since we know that we are still sinners in this life? Now do you understand my OP, IMO Protestant theology is closer to the truth in regards to the doctrine of justification,allowing us to rejoice in the Lord always with confidence in our Great High Priest, Savior, Mediator, and Elder Brother. Our confidence is always in Him and not in ourselves. Catholic theology leaves believers in an unknown status between enmity with God, and God as Abba Father.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

All 7 are revealed in scripture?. What 2 are you referring to?

The Catholic church recognizes the Orthodox sacraments and that they teach the same way to heaven. There are only minor doctrinal differences.

LOL… please show me in Scripture, how you come up with 5 additional sacraments as means of grace.

 

[CWBetts]

Why Sola Fide is inconsistent with the Sriptures:

Sola Fide, the misbegotten belief that we are saved by faith alone with no responsibility whatsoever from the believer was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century, and can be found NOWHERE in the Scriptures. Moreover, the exact opposite belief, that we, as believers have a responsibility to the moral law, can be found in many places. Let us start with the words of Jesus:

You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20)

No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 5:24)

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few (Matthew 7:13)

and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me (Matthew 10:38)

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him: “Who is my mother and who are my brethren?” And stretching out his hand towards his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brethren! For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Matthew 12:46-50)

He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)

Truly, truly I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he shall not see death. (John 8:51)

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. (John 14:12)

If you love me, you will keep my commandments (John 14:15)

Jesus Himself orders us to keep the commandments! Yet some would argue that obedience is unnecessary for salvation? Do I need to mention th hubris of that claim? Please, how can the Sola Fide heresy be reconciled with these statements of God himself. Pleas explain how God is wrong.

 

[CWBetts]

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews

If Catholics do not approach the throne of grace on the basis of our great high priest alone, then what good is Jesus for you as the sufficient mediator between God and man? If you don’t know if your relationship has been restored between you the sinner and God as Holy God and judge, why approach Him with confidence since we know that we are still sinners in this life? Now do you understand my OP, IMO Protestant theology is closer to the truth in regards to the doctrine of justification,allowing us to rejoice in the Lord always with confidence in our Great High Priest, Savior, Mediator, and Elder Brother. Our confidence is always in Him and not in ourselves. Catholic theology leaves believers in an unknown status between enmity with God, and God as Abba Father.

Clarify this with authentic Catholic teaching, citing the Catechism or other documents, since you claim to be such an expert on Catholic doctrine, even though you are not Catholic yourself.

 

[Roy5]

A few brief rejoinders

1. Many Protestants would say that their form of Christianity - a simpler Christianity - better presents the original Christian movement. One wonders what Jesus would say about the emphasis on magnificent cathedrals, ornate vestments, adulation of top clergy, etc.  Prfotestants are inclined to feel that these emphases were borrowed from the traditions of ancient Greece and Rome rather than from Jesus of Nazareth, who had no place to lay his head and who assailed the religious establishment of his era. 

2. Protestantism, of course, was a reform movement which was opposed by the Papacy at the time, though some of its reforms were adopted during the Counter-Reformation and others during Vatican II (vernacular during Mass, for example)..

3, Both sides have a strong argument as to the six books not included in the Protestant Old Testament. Visit your neighborhood synagogue and you will find that the Protestant version is the one used there.

4. Some Protestant churches follow the lectionay (common readings each Sunday), while some do not. This is part of the freedom that various Protestants treasure - not having a top-down religious organization. Freedom is a key word within Protestantism.

5. Protestants believe in the real presence of Christ during communion as at all times. "Lo, I am with you always...." What they do not believe is that the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the real body and blood of Christ.

6. Protestants use the word 'saint' to cover various Biblical ones - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, for example. They are hesitant to accept unlikely stories about certain ancient saints (full of legend and myth), but they even have trouble with more modern saints such as Padre Pio who, it is claimed, bilocated and levitated.

 7. There is a major difference in the attitude toward Mary. Protestants honor Mary, of course, as the mother of Jesus. They feel that the Catholic Church has gone too far in venerating Mary so that she rivals Jesus as the central figure of the faith as practiced by many Catholics (as in the rosary, mainly the recitation of 'Hail Marys').

 8. Protestant is actually a positive word. Pro = for. Professing for or on behalf of. 

 9. Yes, Protestantism suffers from excessive division, one consequence of not having an absolute earthly authority like the Pope. The right of individuals to interpret scripture as they wish is a valued freedom but does lead to proliferation. There is essentially a split between conservative and fundamentalist Protestants on the one hand and liberal (mainly mainstream) Protestants on the other hand. The mainstream denominations tolerate a wide variety of views - what one might call 'big tent' theology. This means that respect is given to individualized views as long as the sincere intent to serve the one Christ.

 10. Protestants and Catholics both are Christian, and some of the arrogance either group expresses is unfortunate and likely sinful. "Now we know in part...." St. Paul wrote. Only God knows the full truth. Sadly, certain forms of Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism resemble certain forms of Islam in that they claim that they alone preach the truth. My guess is that we all are in error, but God is merciful. I'm sure we are not condemned because our finite minds end up with erroneous conclusions as long as we love God and one another, the two great commandments on which all the law and the prophets hangs.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Why Sola Fide is inconsistent with the Sriptures:

Sola Fide, the misbegotten belief that we are saved by faith alone with no responsibility whatsoever from the believer was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century, and can be found NOWHERE in the Scriptures. Moreover, the exact opposite belief, that we, as believers have a responsibility to the moral law, can be found in many places. Let us start with the words of Jesus:

You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20)

No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 5:24)

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few (Matthew 7:13)

and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me (Matthew 10:38)

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him: “Who is my mother and who are my brethren?” And stretching out his hand towards his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brethren! For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Matthew 12:46-50)

He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)

Truly, truly I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he shall not see death. (John 8:51)

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. (John 14:12)

If you love me, you will keep my commandments (John 14:15)

Jesus Himself orders us to keep the commandments! Yet some would argue that obedience is unnecessary for salvation? Do I need to mention th hubris of that claim? Please, how can the Sola Fide heresy be reconciled with these statements of God himself. Pleas explain how God is wrong.

I am not promoting antinomianism, for the law is good according to Scripture, revealing God’s holiness that does not change. When we disobey the law of God, we are in sin. However, our obedience to the law and commandments of God is not the basis for our justification before God, because to be justified at any point of our restored relationship still requires perfection and sinlessness.

 

[CWBetts]

But the basis of your righteousness is a cooperation of God and man to maintain your status of adopted child of God. All Christians understand that we must press on with much struggle in this life by the power of God in us, persevering to the end. However, our relationship to God as Heavenly Father is based on the righteousness of Christ alone. If our privileged status was based on our progress of personal transformation, then nobody would be able to call on God as Abba Father in this world… because all Christians struggle with sin in this life. God still requires sinless perfection to have a restored relationship with Him as His redeemed children. Do you believe you are able to approach God in this life as a sinner-saint? Do you see yourself bouncing from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, back and forth depending on the season of life you are in?

This is because we are bound by the moral law. Being n Christ is not a permission to sin! We can not do good works without the grace, which only comes from God! It takes special graces for those in religious life to adhere to the evangelical counsels. It takes graces to pray, to go to confession, to go to Mass, to adhere to our Lenten sacrifices. This all comes from God, and the instant we stop asking for those graces, and try to depend on ourselves, we fail.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Clarify this with authentic Catholic teaching, citing the Catechism or other documents, since you claim to be such an expert on Catholic doctrine, even though you are not Catholic yourself.

I am not an expert on Catholic doctrine, so please correct any misunderstanding that I may have.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

A few brief rejoinders

1. Many Protestants would say that their form of Christianity - a simpler Christianity - better presents the original Christian movement. One wonders what Jesus would say about the emphasis on magnificent cathedrals, ornate vestments, adulation of top clergy, etc.  Prfotestants are inclined to feel that these emphases were borrowed from the traditions of ancient Greece and Rome rather than from Jesus of Nazareth, who had no place to lay his head and who assailed the religious establishment of his era. 

2. Protestantism, of course, was a reform movement which was opposed by the Papacy at the time, though some of its reforms were adopted during the Counter-Reformation and others during Vatican II (vernacular during Mass, for example)..

3, Both sides have a strong argument as to the six books not included in the Protestant Old Testament. Visit your neighborhood synagogue and you will find that the Protestant version is the one used there.

4. Some Protestant churches follow the lectionay (common readings each Sunday), while some do not. This is part of the freedom that various Protestants treasure - not having a top-down religious organization. Freedom is a key word within Protestantism.

5. Protestants believe in the real presence of Christ during communion as at all times. "Lo, I am with you always...." What they do not believe is that the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the real body and blood of Christ.

6. Protestants use the word 'saint' to cover various Biblical ones - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, for example. They are hesitant to accept unlikely stories about certain ancient saints (full of legend and myth), but they even have trouble with more modern saints such as Padre Pio who, it is claimed, bilocated and levitated.

 7. There is a major difference in the attitude toward Mary. Protestants honor Mary, of course, as the mother of Jesus. They feel that the Catholic Church has gone too far in venerating Mary so that she rivals Jesus as the central figure of the faith as practiced by many Catholics (as in the rosary, mainly the recitation of 'Hail Marys').

 8. Protestant is actually a positive word. Pro = for. Professing for or on behalf of. 

 9. Yes, Protestantism suffers from excessive division, one consequence of not having an absolute earthly authority like the Pope. The right of individuals to interpret scripture as they wish is a valued freedom but does lead to proliferation. There is essentially a split between conservative and fundamentalist Protestants on the one hand and liberal (mainly mainstream) Protestants on the other hand. The mainstream denominations tolerate a wide variety of views - what one might call 'big tent' theology. This means that respect is given to individualized views as long as the sincere intent to serve the one Christ.

 10. Protestants and Catholics both are Christian, and some of the arrogance either group expresses is unfortunate and likely sinful. "Now we know in part...." St. Paul wrote. Only God knows the full truth. Sadly, certain forms of Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism resemble certain forms of Islam in that they claim that they alone preach the truth. My guess is that we all are in error, but God is merciful. I'm sure we are not condemned because our finite minds end up with erroneous conclusions as long as we love God and one another, the two great commandments on which all the law and the prophets hangs.

Thanks, that was really good!