IMO... It's better to be Protestant, but tell me why it's better to be Catholic

[CWBetts]

A couple points, again.

1. Pope Benedict XVI hardly seems all that friendly to Protestantism. He has indicated that Protestant churches should not be really called churches but 'spiritual entities' and he has claimed that Protestant ministers do not the authority to officiate at the Eucharist. It's no surprise that a Pope would believe this, but why did he make public statements that are so offensive to fellow Christians? Poor judgment?

2. The number claimed by Catholicism is - what - 1.5+ billion? Something like that. My family comes from Quebec where less than 10% now attend mass regularly. Catholic Almanac statistics for places like France (85%), Italy (97.5%) and Spain (98.5%) are totally unrealistic also. Didn't I read that Spain, once 'more Catholic than the Pope' - where Protestants were not even allowed public worship under Franco - recently voted to  permit same sex-marriage? Didn't Mexico do the same even more recently? Let's face it, Christianity is in trouble - Catholicism and Protestantism, except perhaps in Africa. The pentecostal form of Protestantism seems to be thriving in Latin America, also.

 But God loves people of every faith, color and nation, and we should praise the Lord for that. Christians should view one another as brothers and sisters rather than as rivals and antagonists, which seems to be the spirit of too many posters on CAF.

The Popes position that Protestant “churches” should not be called such is correct and is consistent with previous teaching. Why does he say it? Because it would be uncharitable not to warn people of their errors. We do consider you brethren, but not in a warm and fuzzy “i’m OK, you’re OK” kind of way. We are brethren by virtue of our common trinitarian baptism, but the unity is imperfect, due to the rejection of the Sacraments and other authentic teaching that was held by all Christians, everywhere, until the Protestant Deformation.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

The Popes position that Protestant “churches” should not be called such is correct and is consistent with previous teaching. Why does he say it? Because it would be uncharitable not to warn people of their errors. We do consider you brethren, but not in a warm and fuzzy “i’m OK, you’re OK” kind of way. We are brethren by virtue of our common trinitarian baptism, but the unity is imperfect, due to the rejection of the Sacraments and other authentic teaching that was held by all Christians, everywhere, until the Protestant Deformation.

I am open to discuss the apparent line in the sand created by various Christian traditions, and help remove them for the sake of Christian unity for the Christian witness to unbelievers (John 17). If we continue to dig deeper fox holes in the sand, and not have honest discussions, then Christendom will weaken in her testimony of Christ to the unbelieving world. For common ground, we can agree that everything flows from the grace of God. Grace is free to us but was merited for us by the perfect life and sacrificial death of the 2nd person of the Trinity, bringing us peace with God our Heavenly Father. So, with that in common, let’s please move on toward our common mission in bringing Christ to the world.

 

[Carlan]

I am open to discuss the apparent line in the sand created by various Christian traditions, and help remove them for the sake of Christian unity for the Christian witness to unbelievers (John 17). If we continue to dig deeper fox holes in the sand, and not have honest discussions, then Christendom will weaken in her testimony of Christ to the unbelieving world. For common ground, we can agree that everything flows from the grace of God. Grace is free to us but was merited for us by the perfect life and sacrificial death of the 2nd person of the Trinity, bringing us peace with God our Heavenly Father. So, with that in common, let’s please move on toward our common mission in bringing Christ to the world.

Yes, unity is what the Apostolic Church prays for daily throughout the world.
I do believe that you as a reformist, would be more effective in bringing Christ’s one Church into complete unity by preaching amongst your own and the thousands of splintered Protesting sects.They must all come back into unity first and then perhaps the unity Christ desires will progress more rapidly. We pray for unity, Lord. Carlan

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Yes, unity is what the Apostolic Church prays for daily throughout the world.
I do believe that you as a reformist, would be more effective in bringing Christ’s one Church into complete unity by preaching amongst your own and the thousands of splintered Protesting sects.They must all come back into unity first and then perhaps the unity Christ desires will progress more rapidly. We pray for unity, Lord. Carlan

It seems you guy like to draw lines in the sand which are in one sense real, but in the overall eternal perspective,they are man made. We are either believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, calling on God as Abba Father, or we are unforgiven sinners under the wrath of God in enmity with Him. Our flesh in us continues to want to draw man made lines in the sand. Unity is found in Christ, or all who have put their faith and trust in Him alone are first and foremost Christians. You can label me a reformist, but a better title would be Christian. I consider all Catholics first and foremost, Christians and Catholics second. So, should we move on to discuss Christ and how we understand Him as Christians? Maybe many cannot see that all Christians are One in Christ because we continue to focus on other things instead of Christ which binds us together?

 

[Loboto-Me]

No, what it is, is that we are called to evangelize the truth so that no souls are lost. How can we be united with 30,000 or more different philosophies? If we were to unify the way you’d want us to, the body of Christ would be so changed that the promise of Christ would be broken and Jesus doesn’t break promises.

What would you like us to change in our doctrine in order to be unified? Should we allow women to be priests? (protestant), then should we allow practicing gays to be ordained? (protestant), after that should we start giving crakers and juice instead of eucharist? (protestant). What about ignoring Jesus’ mother? Should she be put on a shelf somewhere?

Don’t you see? Protestants have so changed Jesus’ teachings that the “as long as we believe and accept Christ as our Lord” the Church would have had the gates of Hell opened and there would be no more truth left.

We are concerned for our brothers and sisters eternal soul. We are the only constant left in all this disarray, we are the lighthouse where should anyone who needs the constant truth can run to.

It’s not about drawing lines in the sand or pits on our part, we haven’t changed… someone else is holding the shovel, not the Church.

 

[CWBetts]

I am open to discuss the apparent line in the sand created by various Christian traditions, and help remove them for the sake of Christian unity for the Christian witness to unbelievers (John 17). If we continue to dig deeper fox holes in the sand, and not have honest discussions, then Christendom will weaken in her testimony of Christ to the unbelieving world. For common ground, we can agree that everything flows from the grace of God. Grace is free to us but was merited for us by the perfect life and sacrificial death of the 2nd person of the Trinity, bringing us peace with God our Heavenly Father. So, with that in common, let’s please move on toward our common mission in bringing Christ to the world.

I, too, am open for honest discussion. So let us be honest. All seven Sacraments were held by all Christians, everywhere until the splintering of the Body of Christ in the sixteenth century. I am saying that unity involves a return to authentic teaching, rather than abandoning said teaching. Unity requires submission to the bishops. The bishops, when in agreement and in communion with the successor of St. Peter, are given the gift of infallibility from the Holy Spirit, although they are not granted infallibility individually. That is a special charism granted to the pope.

Another thing that must be recognized is that Jesus Christ is King. Though virtually all Protestants give lip-service to this idea, their practice does not follow. In the Old Testament, if you study the governmental structure of the Kingdom of Judah, you wil notice some interesting qualities:

1. 
   *]Starting with King Solomon, when the Kingdom came to full fruition and rose to its height, thh king has a council of twelve rulers (1 Kings 4:7)
   *]The Kingdom of Judah had a “chief steward” who acted in the stead of the king, whose office was symbolized by keys (Isa. 22: 20-24)
   *]The queen mother played a very influential role with the king. (1 Kings 2:16-20)
   
   This structure is seen in the Catholic Church. There were originally 12 Apostles, though in Acts, this number started to grow to efficiently shepherd the growing Church. The bishops are successors to the Apostles. Only the Catholic Church maintains the office established by Jesus fro St. Peter: the papacy. Even the reformers acknowledged and venerated the Blessed Virgin. The abandonment of Mary is an even more recent development in the fractured Protestant movement. If you truly want to claim citizenship in Christ’s kingdom, you must submit to the government He established.
   
   That is a start.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

We are concerned for our brothers and sisters eternal soul. We are the only constant left in all this disarray, we are the lighthouse where should anyone who needs the constant truth can run to.

It’s not about drawing lines in the sand or pits on our part, we haven’t changed… someone else is holding the shovel, not the Church.

Don’t worry about the souls of your seperated brothers and sisters in Christ. Our hope is grounded in the person and work of Jesus Christ who is at the right hand of God, interceding for us (and you too). By the grace of God, we are keeping our eyes on Jesus the author and perfecter of our souls. We are trusting in the promises of God for we know that is impossible for Him to lie! Christians in the Protestant tradition are proclaiming in joy for those who are One in Christ…

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. - Rom

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

I, too, am open for honest discussion. So let us be honest. All seven Sacraments were held by all Christians, everywhere until the splintering of the Body of Christ in the sixteenth century. I am saying that unity involves a return to authentic teaching, rather than abandoning said teaching. Unity requires submission to the bishops. The bishops, when in agreement and in communion with the successor of St. Peter, are given the gift of infallibility from the Holy Spirit, although they are not granted infallibility individually. That is a special charism granted to the pope.

Another thing that must be recognized is that Jesus Christ is King. Though virtually all Protestants give lip-service to this idea, their practice does not follow. In the Old Testament, if you study the governmental structure of the Kingdom of Judah, you wil notice some interesting qualities:

1. 
   *]Starting with King Solomon, when the Kingdom came to full fruition and rose to its height, thh king has a council of twelve rulers (1 Kings 4:7)
   *]The Kingdom of Judah had a “chief steward” who acted in the stead of the king, whose office was symbolized by keys (Isa. 22: 20-24)
   *]The queen mother played a very influential role with the king. (1 Kings 2:16-20)
   
   This structure is seen in the Catholic Church. There were originally 12 Apostles, though in Acts, this number started to grow to efficiently shepherd the growing Church. The bishops are successors to the Apostles. Only the Catholic Church maintains the office established by Jesus fro St. Peter: the papacy. Even the reformers acknowledged and venerated the Blessed Virgin. The abandonment of Mary is an even more recent development in the fractured Protestant movement. If you truly want to claim citizenship in Christ’s kingdom, you must submit to the government He established.
   
   That is a start.

1. 
   It seems you love to promote your understanding of the Catholic Church but not necessarily Jesus Christ? The Catholic Church doctrine and distinctives are only as good as you are able to link Catholic doctrine back to the person and work of Jesus Christ. If you link Catholic doctrine together with Jesus Christ, then non-Catholics will be able to listen to you. If you forget to link Jesus Christ with Catholic doctrine, non-Catholic Christians will not hear you. Mary on her own, or the Catholic Church apart from Jesus Christ cannot transform or redeem you. Of all the Catholic posters that I have read, you sure seem to promote obedience to the law as the way to the Father. Therefore, I ask you as a brother, what is your proclamation of the gospel?

 

[Loboto-Me]

Don’t worry about the souls of your seperated brothers and sisters in Christ. Our hope is grounded in the person and work of Jesus Christ who is at the right hand of God, interceding for us (and you too). By the grace of God, we are keeping our eyes on Jesus the author and perfecter of our souls. We are trusting in the promises of God for we know that is impossible for Him to lie! Christians in the Protestant tradition are proclaiming in joy for those who are One in Christ…

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. - Rom

9 And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered, I know not: am I my brother’s keeper? 10 And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth to me from the earth. -Gen

You are telling me that we should just let you guys fall? Why should we feed the hungry? Do you not think that spiritual feeding is more important than physical feeding? Some protestant sects have been starved so long that they don’t know that they’re hungry anymore. That is actually what happens when someone is starving to death. The Church is there to feed the spiritually hungry but those who are hungry need to accept the food of life.

You keep forgetting that it was also said this verse

21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

You see, many many protestants say they are filled with the spirit because they have faith in Jesus, but their fruits say differently as I demonstrated in my previous post. (abortion, gay clergy, confession only in their heads, crackers and juice).

 

[Loboto-Me]

Christians in the Protestant tradition are proclaiming in joy for those who are One in Christ…

You keep pushing “the protestant tradition” what tradition is that? There is no tradition in protestantism, it’s a free for all where those who don’t agree with one part of scripture ignore it or convolute its meaning.

If you’re talking about anglican type tradition, then yes, it’s close to catholic tradition in appearance although, the apostolic legacy isn’t present therefore they are not getting their daily dose of the Eucharist or the forgiveness of sin which Jesus gave through the Spirit.

Now what about those other sects who split off from Luther? Baptists, Born Again Christians, Unitarians etc etc etc, As long as they proclaim Christ all is well in fairy tale land?

 

[tweetymom]

You keep pushing “the protestant tradition” what tradition is that? There is no tradition in protestantism, it’s a free for all where those who don’t agree with one part of scripture ignore it or convolute its meaning.

If you’re talking about anglican type tradition, then yes, it’s close to catholic tradition in appearance although, the apostolic legacy isn’t present therefore they are not getting their daily dose of the Eucharist or the forgiveness of sin which Jesus gave through the Spirit.

Now what about those other sects who split off from Luther? Baptists, Born Again Christians, Unitarians etc etc etc, As long as they proclaim Christ all is well in fairy tale land?

I am a born again Christian. Not in fairy land, in Jesus land.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

You keep pushing “the protestant tradition” what tradition is that? There is no tradition in protestantism, it’s a free for all where those who don’t agree with one part of scripture ignore it or convolute its meaning.

If you’re talking about anglican type tradition, then yes, it’s close to catholic tradition in appearance although, the apostolic legacy isn’t present therefore they are not getting their daily dose of the Eucharist or the forgiveness of sin which Jesus gave through the Spirit.

Now what about those other sects who split off from Luther? Baptists, Born Again Christians, Unitarians etc etc etc, As long as they proclaim Christ all is well in fairy tale land?

You are avoiding the issues at hand, distracting from what is essential that divides us. Let’s just say we are discussing the historic Protestant distinctives of the person and work of Christ which can be summarized in our views of justification.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

9 And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered, I know not: am I my brother’s keeper? 10 And he said to him: What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth to me from the earth. -Gen

You are telling me that we should just let you guys fall? Why should we feed the hungry? Do you not think that spiritual feeding is more important than physical feeding? Some protestant sects have been starved so long that they don’t know that they’re hungry anymore. That is actually what happens when someone is starving to death. The Church is there to feed the spiritually hungry but those who are hungry need to accept the food of life.

You keep forgetting that it was also said this verse

21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

You see, many many protestants say they are filled with the spirit because they have faith in Jesus, but their fruits say differently as I demonstrated in my previous post. (abortion, gay clergy, confession only in their heads, crackers and juice).

Are you saying Catholics are represented by Cain or Able? We know that Able is in Christ (Hebrews 11). Are you the judge of fruit, or are you a fruit inspector?

 

[Loboto-Me]

Are you saying Catholics are represented by Cain or Able? We know that Able is in Christ (Hebrews 11). Are you the judge of fruit, or are you a fruit inspector?

So are you admitting that it should be a free for all? Should we admonish or should we tolerate? Which is the greater sin? Should I let my brother fall? Are we to ignore the fruit of protestantism in order to promote false love for our brother?

“You should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s* soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

St Thomas Aquinas writes: “The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.”

As for being a fruit inspector that might be what I’m being, but if Jesus had not wanted fruit inspectors he wouldn’t have said “by their fruits you shall know them”. He wouldn’t have told us to look at the fruit now would He? Are you saying that we should just ignore bad fruit? That would be going against what Jesus told us… he tells us directly to inspect those fruit.

Edit:
As for the Cain and Abel (strawman) you know what I was talking about. You know that I was saying that God asks us to be our brother’s keeper through that verse. If you didn’t know that, then maybe you need to read the gospel where we are to feed the poor and admonish the sinners and such and such.

 

[CWBetts]

It seems you love to promote your understanding of the Catholic Church but not necessarily Jesus Christ? The Catholic Church doctrine and distinctives are only as good as you are able to link Catholic doctrine back to the person and work of Jesus Christ. If you link Catholic doctrine together with Jesus Christ, then non-Catholics will be able to listen to you. If you forget to link Jesus Christ with Catholic doctrine, non-Catholic Christians will not hear you. Mary on her own, or the Catholic Church apart from Jesus Christ cannot transform or redeem you. Of all the Catholic posters that I have read, you sure seem to promote obedience to the law as the way to the Father. Therefore, I ask you as a brother, what is your proclamation of the gospel?

Obedience is not the way to the Father, inasmuch as works alone is not enough. Do I need to break this down further? The the things I have mentioned in my list are linked to Christ. The Apostles are a recapitulation of Solomon’s Advisers. If Matthew 16:13-20 is read in light of Isaiah 22, you will see that St. Peter is that chief steward. Bath-Sheba serves as a type of Mary with her intercession to the king. You need to get rid of the attitude that “it must be wrong simply because it is Catholic”.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Obedience is not the way to the Father, inasmuch as works alone is not enough. Do I need to break this down further? The the things I have mentioned in my list are linked to Christ. The Apostles are a recapitulation of Solomon’s Advisers. If Matthew 16:13-20 is read in light of Isaiah 22, you will see that St. Peter is that chief steward. Bath-Sheba serves as a type of Mary with her intercession to the king. You need to get rid of the attitude that “it must be wrong simply because it is Catholic”.

Can you please do this one thing for me to help non-Catholic Christians understand the Catholic view of salvation… so we can continue moving forward in Christian unity? The Apostles were passionate to proclaim the gospel to the world. Please proclaim the gospel message to me according to your understanding in which the Apostles preached to sinners. Both Apostle Peter and Paul had great proclamation of the gospel recorded in Scripture. What did they preach in regards to the gospel?

BTW… I do not have an attitude of “it must be wrong simply because it is Catholic”. I embrace and receive all Catholic doctrine which is true. I don’t receive Catholic doctrine which I believe is not true. Remember, we all know in part and error somewhere due to our limitations as fallen creatures in the process of full redemption.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

So are you admitting that it should be a free for all? Should we admonish or should we tolerate? Which is the greater sin? Should I let my brother fall? Are we to ignore the fruit of protestantism in order to promote false love for our brother?

“You should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s* soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

St Thomas Aquinas writes: “The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.”

As for being a fruit inspector that might be what I’m being, but if Jesus had not wanted fruit inspectors he wouldn’t have said “by their fruits you shall know them”. He wouldn’t have told us to look at the fruit now would He? Are you saying that we should just ignore bad fruit? That would be going against what Jesus told us… he tells us directly to inspect those fruit.

Edit:
As for the Cain and Abel (strawman) you know what I was talking about. You know that I was saying that God asks us to be our brother’s keeper through that verse. If you didn’t know that, then maybe you need to read the gospel where we are to feed the poor and admonish the sinners and such and such.

Able and Cain represents two different groups of humanity. I did not know Catholics believe in being fruit inspectors? This is no free for all, because God spoke authoratively as the greatest revelation to mankind in His Son Jesus Christ.

The Supremacy of God’s Son

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Hebrews

 

[Loboto-Me]

Able and Cain represents two different groups of humanity. I did not know Catholics believe in being fruit inspectors?

Some Catholics do, and I’m one of them because there’s nothing wrong with inspecting fruit, the sin lies in inspecting the people.

I didn’t know that all protestants believe in killing unborn children? Protestants believe in gay marriage? Protestants are snake handling, floor rolling, convulsive bible thumpers ? Nice way you phrased your sentence isn’t it?

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Some Catholics do, and I’m one of them because there’s nothing wrong with inspecting fruit, the sin lies in inspecting the people.

I didn’t know that all protestants believe in killing unborn children? Protestants believe in gay marriage? Protestants are snake handling, floor rolling, convulsive bible thumpers ? Nice way you phrased your sentence isn’t it?

The problem with being a fruit inspector is not having the ability to accurately know the heart of another. You are taking this fruit inspector thing beyond what Christ revealed in the Scriptures. It is quite out of context. I thought being a fruit inspector was created by modern Protestants, but I had no idea Catholics embrace being fruit inspectors. i think if all Christians examined their own fruit or lack of it, we would be driven back to Jesus Christ each and every day. What did Jesus teach about removing the log out of our own eye before moving the spec from your brother’s eye? It sure seems you are preaching a moral gospel instead of the Gospel.

 

[CWBetts]

Can you please do this one thing for me to help non-Catholc Christians understand the Catholic view of salvation… so we can continue moving forward in Christian unity? The Apostles were passionate to proclaim the gospel to the world. Please proclaim the gospel message to me according to your understanding in which the Apostles preached to sinners.

Salvation comes through true faith which is demonstrated by works (no works means no true faith James 2:24) Works includes (but is not limited to) such things as obedience to the True Church, works of mercy, etc.