Imperfect Union with the catholic church, or imperfect union with Christ?

[Guyonthestreet]

Im trying to understand what catholics mean when they say other christians are in imperfect union with the catholic church.

Given the claim that the catholic church contains the fullness of truth, wouldnt this imply that if you were not in perfect union with the catholic church, you couldnt be in perfect union with Christ?

But how can someone, who believes in God, His Son Jesus, His death and resurrection, and in the Real Presence, the forgiveness of sins, The 10 commandments and the greatest commandment, for example, not be in perfect union with Christ?

It seems to me one is either unified with Christ, or one is not.

I’m struggling to see this ‘‘imperfect union’’ except in the eyes of a church establishment.

Any help appreciated as always.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

My :twocents: :

Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the light.

Outside of the Catholic Church, you are missing part of that truth, so you’re missing part of Jesus.

Again, my :twocents:. Perhaps someone better versed in apologetics can explain further.

Love is patient

 

[StrawberryJam]

Im trying to understand what catholics mean when they say other christians are in imperfect union with the catholic church.

Given the claim that the catholic church contains the fullness of truth, wouldnt this imply that if you were not in perfect union with the catholic church, you couldnt be in perfect union with Christ?

But how can someone, who believes in God, His Son Jesus, His death and resurrection, and in the Real Presence, the forgiveness of sins, The 10 commandments and the greatest commandment, for example, not be in perfect union with Christ?

It seems to me one is either unified with Christ, or one is not.

I’m struggling to see this ‘‘imperfect union’’ except in the eyes of a church establishment.

Any help appreciated as always.

Not all christians accept a Real Presence in their Holy Communion.

You may already know that, but I just thought I would mention it if you did not know that.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It is called the sin of presumption, meaning they self proclaim they have achieved the communion. For example we see people who rightfully sit in prison self proclaim they are the most religious. Have you seen the recent stories about the two US girls (Jaycee Dugard, & Elizabeth Smart) kidnapped and …… by preachers? It just goes to show how far off base a person can be

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It is called the sin of presumption, meaning they self proclaim they have achieved the communion. For example we see people who rightfully sit in prison self proclaim they are the most religious. Have you seen the recent stories about the two US girls (Jaycee Dugard, & Elizabeth Smart) kidnapped and …… by preachers? It just goes to show how far off base a person can be

An excellent description of the presumption of Catholicism. It’s impossible not to see in your words a description of the men who covered up and enabled abuse, who as bishops and religious superiors were committed to exalting the excellence of the Roman Communion. The difference of course is that these people are unarrested & unimprisoned. ​

And people like that have the nerve to tell Protestants that Protestants need the RCC for communion with Christ ???

 

[StrawberryJam]

An excellent description of the presumption of Catholicism. It’s impossible not to see in your words a description of the men who covered up and enabled abuse, who as bishops and religious superiors were committed to exalting the excellence of the Roman Communion. The difference of course is that these people are unarrested & unimprisoned. ​

And people like that have the nerve to tell Protestants that Protestants need the RCC for communion with Christ ???

I don’t know if many of the victims actually called the police and filed reports or not. It’s hard to arrest and imprison a person without any knowledge of a crime. Police do try their best when they are notifyed.

So, I would say that the silence to report these things was also a crime against the children, by their very own parents in most cases.

 

[JRKH]

Im trying to understand what catholics mean when they say other christians are in imperfect union with the catholic church.

Given the claim that the catholic church contains the fullness of truth, wouldnt this imply that if you were not in perfect union with the catholic church, you couldnt be in perfect union with Christ?

But how can someone, who believes in God, His Son Jesus, His death and resurrection, and in the Real Presence, the forgiveness of sins, The 10 commandments and the greatest commandment, for example, not be in perfect union with Christ?

It seems to me one is either unified with Christ, or one is not.

I’m struggling to see this ‘‘imperfect union’’ except in the eyes of a church establishment.

Any help appreciated as always.

As with many things this question can be looked at on different levels.
Also, I should point out that there is a difference between being “in full communion” and being in “perfect union”. For example, I dare say that there are many married couples who are in “full communion” but not in “perfect union”

From the point of view of Catholic Teaching and Doctrine, The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Therefore to be in full communion with The Church is to be in Full communion with Christ. To be not in full communion with The Church is to be not in full communion with Christ. It is important to note here that The Church does not declare that one who is not in full communion cannot be saved, only that it is harder.

Being in “Union” with Christ is another matter and deals more with the spiritual and mystical aspects. Being in Union with Christ, involves subjegating ones personal will to God’s Will. This kind of “perfect union” is refered to as the Unitive Stage of the journey toward holiness and is something few achieve on this side of the veil. So in this sense, there are very few persons alive today who are in “perfect union” with Christ.

Now to relate the idea of being “in full communion” to being in “perfect union”. Those who are outside of The Church, or are in “imperfect communion” with The Church have either rejected part of the great and deep learning and spirituality of The Church, or they have never been exposed to said learning because someone else has rejected it for them previously. They also are leaving themselves open to errors that the Church has already dealt with and they find themselves needing to “reinvent the wheel”. This has the effect of, at best, slowing their progress on the journey to holiness or, at worst, resulting in their losing their salvation by falling into a snare of the devil.

I’m not sure if this helps or confuses the issue for you but this is how I see it.

Peace
James

 

[Texas_Roofer]

An excellent description of the presumption of Catholicism. It’s impossible not to see in your words a description of the men who covered up and enabled abuse, who as bishops and religious superiors were committed to exalting the excellence of the Roman Communion. The difference of course is that these people are unarrested & unimprisoned. :​

remember the sin of presumption requires they think they are doing the right thing and are performing God’s work, some who committed these crimes may well have presumption, others may not.

And people like that have the nerve to tell Protestants that Protestants need the RCC for communion with Christ ???

Well they would be right, Protest are trying to emulate full communion and we can hope they achieve that but we see several signs they do not ( as contraception, divorce, denying Mary, purgatory, etc. )

 

[Newbie2]

As with many things this question can be looked at on different levels.
Also, I should point out that there is a difference between being “in full communion” and being in “perfect union”. For example, I dare say that there are many married couples who are in “full communion” but not in “perfect union”

From the point of view of Catholic Teaching and Doctrine, The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Therefore to be in full communion with The Church is to be in Full communion with Christ. To be not in full communion with The Church is to be not in full communion with Christ. It is important to note here that The Church does not declare that one who is not in full communion cannot be saved, only that it is harder.

Being in “Union” with Christ is another matter and deals more with the spiritual and mystical aspects. Being in Union with Christ, involves subjegating ones personal will to God’s Will. This kind of “perfect union” is refered to as the Unitive Stage of the journey toward holiness and is something few achieve on this side of the veil. So in this sense, there are very few persons alive today who are in “perfect union” with Christ.

Now to relate the idea of being “in full communion” to being in “perfect union”. Those who are outside of The Church, or are in “imperfect communion” with The Church have either rejected part of the great and deep learning and spirituality of The Church, or they have never been exposed to said learning because someone else has rejected it for them previously. They also are leaving themselves open to errors that the Church has already dealt with and they find themselves needing to “reinvent the wheel”. This has the effect of, at best, slowing their progress on the journey to holiness or, at worst, resulting in their losing their salvation by falling into a snare of the devil.

I’m not sure if this helps or confuses the issue for you but this is how I see it.

Peace
James

Well said.

It seems that sometimes, folks will misunderstand that the holiness, fullness and unicity of the Catholic Church is not dependant upon the conduct of its clergy. The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, composed of imperfect human members who are sanctified by Christ’s own sacrifice.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Therefore to be in full communion with The Church is to be in Full communion with Christ. To be not in full communion with The Church is to be not in full communion with Christ.

James thank you for your excellent post.

Having read it through a few times I can see where I was confusing union and communion.

I still dont quite see how not being in full communion with the church of Rome somehow impedes on my relationship with Christ.

This is starting to develop into a ig stumbling block for me now.

I accept the primacy of Peter, as set out in the gospel, but I’m still trying to work out, taking everything I know to date in relation to how the early church was constructed and run, how the primacy of Peter developed into the infallible (I know that refers to faith and doctrine only) Pope we have today.

At the present time I still cannot buy into all the Marian dogmas.

I simply do not accept that not being a ‘‘catholic’’ makes it somehow harder to get into heaven.

You can see I’m a long way from being in full communion with the catholic church.

But I believe and feel and know that my relationship with Christ is growing day by day.

I believe I need to be baptised a christian to receive that indelible mark on my soul that calls me to a christian life.

I believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and believe I need to receive Him daily/weekly to feed my soul.

I believe a alidly ordained priest has the power to forgive sins, and I should confess and receive absolution. I don’t believe however that Jesus’ forgiveness is limited to being received via a priest.

I believe I need to hold fast to His commandments, offer my life up as a continuous prayer, and join my prayers to the communion of saints in heaven.

I believe I can go directly to the Father through the Son, and I believe the Holy Spirit will work in my life if I am open to Him.

I can’t go much further than that - at the present time.

In what way then, is my relationship with God ‘‘imperfect’’?

The Gospel makes no mention of Mary’s assumption into heaven (although I dont necessarily think because it’s not mentioned it isnt or cant be so), but I struggle with a Pope declaring it is so.

Equally, catholics are forced to believe in Mary’s Immaculate conception. I know the scripture passages used to evidence this, but to be perfectly honest, I do go hmmm, when I read the Pope declared it so, in 1854, and 4 years later at Lourdes, Mary appears and refers to herself as the Immacualte Conception.

I also am wondering more and more why it is that Mary seems to appear a lot in the catholic church.

Why not other saints?

Or Jesus Himself?

Or a manifistation of the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps this has happened and Im not aware of it but it’s certainly not on the frequency of the appearances of Mary.

I really do believe that true catholics do not worship Mary, and believe she is a means to come closer to her divine Son, but I am really struggling with the catholic churchs obsession with Mary, and the dogmatic requirements in relation to Mary it wants to place on me in order for me to become a catholic.

Surely it is all about Jesus.

Nothing more nothing less.

And if am right with Jesus, how can that relationships be somehow imperfected by my relationship with the catholic church?

If I am on the right road, please keep praying for me that I will see it.

 

[TheosisM]

James thank you for your excellent post.

Having read it through a few times I can see where I was confusing union and communion.

I still dont quite see how not being in full communion with the church of Rome somehow impedes on my relationship with Christ.

This is starting to develop into a ig stumbling block for me now.

I accept the primacy of Peter, as set out in the gospel, but I’m still trying to work out, taking everything I know to date in relation to how the early church was constructed and run, how the primacy of Peter developed into the infallible (I know that refers to faith and doctrine only) Pope we have today.

At the present time I still cannot buy into all the Marian dogmas.

…etc.

Please remember that this is our [Catholic] view, and that although many may find fault with it, this is how we see things in our worldview.

It is certainly possible, and clearly is the case, that people outside of the Catholic Church can have a relationship with Jesus Christ. The Catholic view is that, because the Church is the “one true Church”, and that the fullness of Truth resides in it, one can only have a full union with Christ, the way (we believe) He intended it to be, in the Catholic Church. Now, that does not mean that just because someone is Catholic, they have a better relationship with our Lord than a Baptist, or a Lutheran, etc. It means that the full expression of the one Faith is only found in the Catholic Church, and a Catholic has to choose to participate in that Faith (actively). So, one can very much have a personal relationship with Christ outside of the Catholic Church, however they do not have “access” to the fullness of the Faith as we believe is revealed in and found only in the Church. An important aspect of this is the sacraments. We believe that Eastern Orthodox do have valid sacraments. However, because they are in schism, this is still an irregular situation, where the ideal is to be in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Catholics do not believe that the forgiveness of sins is limited to via a priest. This is the normative way, however God is not bound by the sacraments. I confess my sins to God outside of church all the time. We do believe that one must participate in the sacrament of confession at least once a year (I believe…), and obviously a large percentage of people sadly don’t do this. However, there are many benefits to the penitent to auricular confession to a priest, which is why we believe that Christ intended this as the normative way of receiving forgiveness of sins, though yes, you can always confess directly to God whenever you want (in addition to auricular confession of course).

The Bible does not say (explicitly) many things that we believe. Remember, Catholics do not believe that everything MUST be found in the Bible to be believed. At the same time, what we believe must not contradict Scripture.

Various non-Marian apparitions have occurred throughout the history of the Church. The interesting thing about Marian apparitions (if one chooses to believe in them, which you do not have to. I rarely think about them) is that as Jesus Christ came into this world through Mary, she still points the faithful to her Son and our Lord. This is an important aspect of the theology behind Marian apparitions.

The Catholic Church recognizes the importance of Mary in the plan of salvation, and her uniqueness in the history of our Faith. Marian doctrines help one to have a more complete picture of the life of Mary, from beginning to earthly end. Both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches honor Mary in many ways because of this (as do various Anglicans and Lutherans). While we may not all agree on things like the Immaculate Conception (because of our differences in understanding original sin), we all agree that she is to be revered. All saints (on earth and in Heaven) should be respected and honored, as one honors their mother and father, brother and sister. We also give more honor to Mary because of her unique role. You don’t have to say the Hail Mary, or the Rosary, or believe in Marian apparitions, if you don’t want to. I haven’t said the rosary in a long time, nor do I pay particular attention to the apparitions. I do say the Hail Mary, and I do believe in the Assumption (called the Dormition in Eastern Christianity) and Immaculate Conception. Again, the importance of Mary is to point towards God.

So, the fullness of Truth is only found in the Catholic Church. You either believe this or you don’t, and therefore believe it is elsewhere (or nowhere). All can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, whether Catholic or not, however we believe that the way He intended for us to be united to Him, in His body, is through His Church, with the full expression of the one Faith, which we believe is the Catholic Church.

 

[FCEGM]

Im trying to understand what catholics mean when they say other christians are in imperfect union with the catholic church.

Given the claim that the catholic church contains the fullness of truth, wouldnt this imply that if you were not in perfect union with the catholic church, you couldnt be in perfect union with Christ?

But how can someone, who believes in God, His Son Jesus, His death and resurrection, and in the Real Presence, the forgiveness of sins, The 10 commandments and the greatest commandment, for example, not be in perfect union with Christ?

It seems to me one is either unified with Christ, or one is not.

I’m struggling to see this ‘‘imperfect union’’ except in the eyes of a church establishment.

Any help appreciated as always.

Guy, have you read Dominus Iesus? If not, you might find it helpful:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

An excerpt:

1. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50

Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.52

 

[dragoneustace]

Im trying to understand what catholics mean when they say other christians are in imperfect union with the catholic church.

Given the claim that the catholic church contains the fullness of truth, wouldnt this imply that if you were not in perfect union with the catholic church, you couldnt be in perfect union with Christ?

Yes couldn’t, because Jesus create his Church as gift to do full union. So If You don’t like CC you dont’ like Christ.

 

[Ceil-1]

An excellent description of the presumption of Catholicism. It’s impossible not to see in your words a description of the men who covered up and enabled abuse, who as bishops and religious superiors were committed to exalting the excellence of the Roman Communion. The difference of course is that these people are unarrested & unimprisoned. ​

And people like that have the nerve to tell Protestants that Protestants need the RCC for communion with Christ ???

The bishops I know of who are guilty of this were not exactly model Catholics, nor were they, are are they, committed to exalting the excellence of the “Roman Communion” confused:). They were, and are, pretty shabby leaders, more concerned with human respect than in preserving the Faith, and one can spot these impostors a mile away.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

So If You don’t like CC you dont’ like Christ.

Oh good grief

You’ve been doing lunch with someone else from here havent you.

No. It’s perfectly possible to love and adore Christ, devote your whole life to Him, and NOT be a catholic.

Have a look around.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Oh good grief

You’ve been doing lunch with someone else from here havent you.

No. It’s perfectly possible to love and adore Christ, devote your whole life to Him, and NOT be a catholic.

Have a look around.

I think you are missing the context of the message, taken in proper context it is correct. (similarly to hate other christian religions is deny Christ and CC teachings)

 

[josie_L]

Oh good grief

You’ve been doing lunch with someone else from here havent you.

No. It’s perfectly possible to love and adore Christ, devote your whole life to Him, and NOT be a catholic.

Have a look around.

He specified “if you don’t like the Church you don’t like Christ”, not that someone can’t love Christ if they’re not Catholic. He like others before him (although not as eloquently stated) is saying that the Church is truly the body of Christ therefore anyone who should dislike (and that’s putting it mildly in the case of some) the Church in effect dislikes Christ (obviously they are not aware of this or rather do not hold to the truth that the Catholic Church is the Church initiated by Christ with his own blood).

 

[Guyonthestreet]

He specified “if you don’t like the Church you don’t like Christ”, not that someone can’t love Christ if they’re not Catholic. He like others before him (although not as eloquently stated) is saying that the Church is truly the body of Christ therefore anyone who should dislike (and that’s putting it mildly in the case of some) the Church in effect dislikes Christ (obviously they are not aware of this or rather do not hold to the truth that the Catholic Church is the Church initiated by Christ with his own blood).

So by that logic, Archbishop Desmond Tutu does not like Christ. He’s a man of great intellect, humility and charity. I doubt he has never looked into the catholic church or is at least very familiar with it’s teachings. He clearly feels the Anglican Church is the right place to be and rejects the catholic church in one or more ways. When you look at his life, how can anyone even begin to suggest the man does not like Christ

Reading back on this again - ok I can love Christ, thats not disputed, as a noncatholic, but if I reject the catholic church, I am somehow also rejecting Christ, if I dont like the church I dont like Christ, but, I can love Christ with all my heart and all my soul.

Nope. I’m being really dumb I guess, but I just dont get that logic.

James, TheosisM FCEGM and all you others, thanks for taking the time to elaborate for me.

The problem is me - I just dont get it.

(yet)

 

[josie_L]

In what way then, is my relationship with God ‘‘imperfect’’?

You have yet to know (and experience) the fullness of truth, but when you do you will fill a lightness of heart and peace so profound that all the troubles you have experienced on your journey home will be as nothing.

The Gospel makes no mention of Mary’s assumption into heaven (although I dont necessarily think because it’s not mentioned it isnt or cant be so), but I struggle with a Pope declaring it is so.

I believe it was tradition (St. John of Chrysostom I recall mentions this) which catalogued the assumption of Mary for us, therefore the pope was not acting in a vacuum when he declared it dogma. I’m the sure the Church deliberated on this for awhile before the Pope made his ex-cathedra statement.

Equally, catholics are forced to believe in Mary’s Immaculate conception. I know the scripture passages used to evidence this, but to be perfectly honest, I do go hmmm, when I read the Pope declared it so, in 1854, and 4 years later at Lourdes, Mary appears and refers to herself as the Immacualte Conception.

No Catholic is forced to believe Mary’s Immaculate conception (although I’m not sure why this is so hard to accept) but they should attempt to seek understanding through God who reveals all truth to them via the Holy Spirit.

The other point I’d like to make is this, do you doubt Saint Bernadette of Soubirous who although could not conceive of the term of Immaculate Conception (she was very ignorant with respect to the theological aspects of her faith) was able to hold her own when examined many a time by the Church, government officials, skeptics and the like? Recall that any apparition is vigorously tested by the Church before it can be approved. I believe that Bernadette being a saint and the wonderful miracles that have come of Lourdes is a testament to the veracity of her claims.

I also am wondering more and more why it is that Mary seems to appear a lot in the catholic church.

Why not other saints?

Or Jesus Himself?

Or a manifistation of the Holy Spirit?

Maybe because when people envision or think of our blessed Mother they think of Catholicism, and so God knowing this sends her to us so the rest of the world may know that the Catholic Church is indeed the true church of Christ.

I must say however that Jesus has appeared to some saints throughout the ages (you should read up on the lives of saints, this will help you much on your journey) Saint Catherine of Sienna and St. Thomas Aquinas being two that come to mind.

Perhaps this has happened and Im not aware of it but it’s certainly not on the frequency of the appearances of Mary.

That’s probably true but in light of what I just said there may be reasons for that.

I really do believe that true catholics do not worship Mary, and believe she is a means to come closer to her divine Son, but I am really struggling with the catholic churchs obsession with Mary, and the dogmatic requirements in relation to Mary it wants to place on me in order for me to become a catholic.

I think when you begin to see the Catholic Church as that house of rock which will prevail against all evil, i.e., no falsehood shall be taught as all truth shall be revealed to her through the helper, the Holy Spirit than you will understand why we trust her so.

If I am on the right road, please keep praying for me that I will see it.

You are on the right road, and yes, I will pray for you that you may see it and cherish it always.

 

[josie_L]

So by that logic, Archbishop Desmond Tutu does not like Christ. He’s a man of great intellect, humility and charity. I doubt he has never looked into the catholic church or is at least very familiar with it’s teachings. He clearly feels the Anglican Church is the right place to be and rejects the catholic church in one or more ways. When you look at his life, how can anyone even begin to suggest the man does not like Christ

Reading back on this again - ok I can love Christ, thats not disputed, as a noncatholic, but if I reject the catholic church, I am somehow also rejecting Christ, if I dont like the church I dont like Christ, but, I can love Christ with all my heart and all my soul.

Nope. I’m being really dumb I guess, but I just dont get that logic.

James, TheosisM FCEGM and all you others, thanks for taking the time to elaborate for me.

The problem is me - I just dont get it.

(yet)

But Archbishop Desmond Tutu does not dislike (we are not refering to the rejection of dogma alone) the Catholic Church.