Imperfect Union with the catholic church, or imperfect union with Christ?

[Texas_Roofer]

… but I just dont get that logic.

…

(yet)

Suppose Christ told a group to do 1,000 things. Some do 900, some 800, some do 700 few did 1,000. Would doing 900 show an attempt to follow? So if one guy attempts the 1,000 but only completes 850 while another attempts only 900 but completes 880 who is better, that seems to be the issue here. To attempt the 1,000 you have to be catholic, but you could be a noncatholic and still out perform a catholic.

hope that helps with the logic

 

[JRKH]

James thank you for your excellent post.

Having read it through a few times I can see where I was confusing union and communion.

Guy, You are welcome. I’m glad that it was of some help to you.
Also I apologize for not getting back sooner. With our health issues here, it can be difficult at times. I’m glad that some others have addresed some of the issues you have listed below. As it is late here now, I will not go into much but may post more tomorrow.

I still dont quite see how not being in full communion with the church of Rome somehow impedes on my relationship with Christ.

This is starting to develop into a ig stumbling block for me now.

I can understand this, and I’m not sure how I can explain it. It’s one of those things that one must be convicted on.
The Church in Rome contains teaching that has been consistant and unbroken for nearly 2000 years. There is no “disconnect” between that understood and taught in 1000 AD and that which is taught in 2000 AD. This does not mean that things aren’t taught differently (differnt terms, language, examples etc.) but the differences are mainly cultural and not theological.
This long and consistant history means that the Church embodies many paths to Christ from the “reasoned” (St Thomas Aquanis) to the “Mystical” (St Catherine of Sienna). Plus the Church has looked at these various roads and can provide safeguards against getting off track or following a false teacher.
NCC faith communities, do not enjoy this unbroken line and, in fact many take pains to distance themselves from anything that might be “too catholic”. This closes them off to certain things contained within the church that could be beneficial. Such closing of doors to teachings, practices, sacraments etc, adds to the difficulties of achieving union with Christ. Plus such disconnect effectively neutralizes the safeguards against false teachers and bad teachings, thus making it easier to get off track.

I don’t know that my explanation above is the clear position of the Church on the matter, but that is how I see it.

I accept the primacy of Peter, as set out in the gospel, but I’m still trying to work out, taking everything I know to date in relation to how the early church was constructed and run, how the primacy of Peter developed into the infallible (I know that refers to faith and doctrine only) Pope we have today.

At the present time I still cannot buy into all the Marian dogmas.

I simply do not accept that not being a ‘‘catholic’’ makes it somehow harder to get into heaven.

You can see I’m a long way from being in full communion with the catholic church.

But I believe and feel and know that my relationship with Christ is growing day by day.

I too believe your relationship with Christ is Growing. I also believe that as it continues to grow you will find yourself more and more in line with The Church. Do not get discouraged. Keep seeking prayerfully.

I believe I need to be baptised a christian to receive that indelible mark on my soul that calls me to a christian life.

I agree that you should be baptized. Let’s keep working together to reach the point where you feel ready.

I believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and believe I need to receive Him daily/weekly to feed my soul.

I believe a alidly ordained priest has the power to forgive sins, and I should confess and receive absolution. I don’t believe however that Jesus’ forgiveness is limited to being received via a priest.

I believe I need to hold fast to His commandments, offer my life up as a continuous prayer, and join my prayers to the communion of saints in heaven.

I believe I can go directly to the Father through the Son, and I believe the Holy Spirit will work in my life if I am open to Him.

You are obviously so close now I want to help you reach the next level. I think that I reacently posted something on another thread that might be of help here. I’ll try to find it and post it later.

I can’t go much further than that - at the present time.

In what way then, is my relationship with God ‘‘imperfect’’?

This could be a subject of a whole other thread.
Again I think I better wait and prepare a good answer - just too late right now.

The Gospel makes no mention of Mary’s assumption into heaven …

Equally, catholics are forced to believe in Mary’s Immaculate conception. …

I also am wondering more and more why it is that Mary seems to appear a lot in the catholic church.
Why not other saints?
Or Jesus Himself?
Or a manifistation of the Holy Spirit?
Perhaps this has happened and Im not aware of it but it’s certainly not on the frequency of the appearances of Mary.

I really do believe that true catholics do not worship Mary, …

Surely it is all about Jesus.
Nothing more nothing less.
And if am right with Jesus, how can that relationships be somehow imperfected by my relationship with the catholic church?

If I am on the right road, please keep praying for me that I will see it.

I firmly believe you are on the right road. In many ways you sound just like me a few years ago.
These are all very good questions which I will try to respond to in a cohesive way.

By the way - I know that we have conversed before, did I ever recommend a book to you called “The Fulfillment of All Desire”?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Guy,
Here is the post I promised from another thread that I think speaks to the issue of acceptance vs understanding a doctrine.

---

I think that it is important to note that Matters of Dogma require our acceptance, not necessrily our full understandint and “signing off on them” so to speak.

There are a couple of ways to look at problematic issues.

One is that one cannot accept something unless they fully understand it. By this measure none of us could even be Christian for we cannot fully understand the mysteries of Christ’s salvic mission, how grace works, the Trinity or a whole host of other issues.

The other is to recognize that, even though we may not fully understand an issue we can accept it on the authority of the Church to “bind and loose”. By this we can recognize that no dogmatic declaration is ever made lightly or without considerable study and prayer. We also know that Christ established a Church specifically to deal with such issues and to settle such disagreements.

The first method requires that a person render judgement on a matter of faith. This requires that said person fully investigate all of the relevent documents, declarations, history etc. In essence it requires the individual to fully re-investigate the matter and then, they must feel confident enough in their own infallibility to render a judgement contrary to that which the Church has set forth. (I don’t know about you but I don’t have that much conficence in my own “Infallibility”.)

The Second method only requires that an individual assent to the possibility that the Church, with all of her history and resourses, might know a bit more about a given issue than the individual does. So while the individual might be able to say, “I’m not sure about this dogma”, they can also say, “I accept the teaching on faith in Christ, His promises and His Church”.

In reality I doubt that their are many catholics out there who fully understand and accept EVERY teaching of the Church. There ARE many who accept the teachings on faith.
I certainly fall into the second category.

Hope this helps some.

Peace
James

 

[SSTeacher]

I simply do not accept that not being a “catholic”’ makes it somehow harder to get into heaven.

How do you understand salvation? If you believe people are saved in isolation, as Evangelicals invariably do, then you can be saved by kneeling down at your bed and reciting the “Sinner’s Prayer” following which you can choose to join whatever denomination takes your fancy (or not join one at all). But if you understand salvation to be a process and believe we are saved not as individuals but that we are saved together then being outside the Church is hardly helpful.

But I believe and feel and know that my relationship with Christ is growing day by day.

How are you measuring your spiritual progress? Could this be a situation wherein Plato’s “know thyself” is worth considering? It seems to me that if you’re outside the Church it’s going to be much more difficult to gauge your spiritual progress than if you are inside it.

I believe I can go directly to the Father through the Son, and I believe the Holy Spirit will work in my life if I am open to Him.

But what’s the basis for that belief?

In what way then, is my relationship with God “imperfect”?

Surely this question is for you alone to decide?

The Gospel makes no mention of Mary’s assumption into heaven (although I don’t necessarily think because it’s not mentioned it isn’t or cant be so), but I struggle with a Pope declaring it is so.

Pope Pius XII merely affirmed what most Catholics already believed. He didn’t introduce anything new. So why the struggle in this case?

Equally, Catholics are forced to believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception. I know the scripture passages used to evidence this, but to be perfectly honest, I do go hmmm, when I read the Pope declared it so, in 1854, and 4 years later at Lourdes, Mary appears and refers to herself as the Immaculate Conception.

I don’t think any Catholic ought to feel that he or she was being forced to accept doctrine. So I’m beginning to see your main difficulty slowly emerging. Is it not that the central question for you is: By What Authority?

I really do believe that true Catholics do not worship Mary, and believe she is a means to come closer to her divine Son, but I am really struggling with the Catholic Church’s obsession with Mary, and the dogmatic requirements in relation to Mary it wants to place on me in order for me to become a catholic.

No, of course Catholics don’t worship Mary but it does seem to me that your perception is that the Mother of God is being forced upon you because she is “somehow necessary.” If that’s how you see her then I don’t think it’s surprising that you are conflicted. Please allow me to present a different perception.

Shortly after I became an Orthodox catechumen six months ago I was allowed into the choir. I’ve never been much good at singing but it turns out that I’m a bass and apparently actually good enough for a choir. So I sing all through the Divine Liturgy every Sunday morning. All the singing is a cappella and it is a totally new experience for me to hear myself sing and simultaneously be part of beautiful harmonies. When I give back to God like that, I somehow become something that I could never be as an individual. And as I sing, I learn doctrine:

It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word, true Theotokos we magnify thee.

The written word doesn’t do it justice. But my point is that I could never think of the Theotokos as being forced upon me. I rejoice in the fact that she said yes to the Lord and that she was the first Christian and I feel privileged to able to sing to her during the Divine Liturgy. But I could never describe myself as having an “obsession with Mary.” Perhaps you can find a way to think of the Mother of God in the way that I do?

Surely it is all about Jesus.

Nothing more nothing less.

But the Catholic Church is Christ–centered. Only anti–Catholics with a hostile agenda propose otherwise.

And if am right with Jesus, how can that relationships be somehow imperfected by my relationship with the Catholic Church?

I suggest that you ask yourself this: How do I know for certain I am “right” with Jesus?

If I am on the right road, please keep praying for me that I will see it.

I will indeed continue to pray for you.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[JRKH]

Guy, now that I have a little time I’ll try to get to some of the specifics in your post.

I accept the primacy of Peter, as set out in the gospel, but I’m still trying to work out, taking everything I know to date in relation to how the early church was constructed and run, how the primacy of Peter developed into the infallible (I know that refers to faith and doctrine only) Pope we have today.

Honestly I would not spend to much time on this. The thing to remember is that the growth of the Church is an organic thing. One that developed as the Church did from a few hundred to over a billion disciples. After all, it is Christ’s Body.
The infallibility issue shouldn’t be a problem either. Peter recieved the Keys as Vicar of Christ with power to bind and loose. This power is shared with the Bishops of the Church through the magisterium. The Primacy has not really developed at all. Only the “trappings” of that primacy and infallibility. Only the practices have changed.

At the present time I still cannot buy into all the Marian dogmas.

I addressed some of this in my earlier post and will not belabor the point here. I will ask if, given the number of things that you DO accept, chief among them being the Real Presence, do you think the Marion Doctrines ore important enough to keep you away from communion with Christ in the Eucharist?

The Gospel makes no mention of Mary’s assumption into heaven (although I dont necessarily think because it’s not mentioned it isnt or cant be so), but I struggle with a Pope declaring it is so.
Equally, catholics are forced to believe in Mary’s Immaculate conception. I know the scripture passages used to evidence this, but to be perfectly honest, I do go hmmm, when I read the Pope declared it so, in 1854, and 4 years later at Lourdes, Mary appears and refers to herself as the Immacualte Conception.

Certainly we are not “Forced” to believe, nor did the pope simply “Declare” the doctrines. And Yes it is very interesting that we have the “coincidence” of Lourdes.
The Pope doesn’t simply wake up and make declarations. Such matters are always thoroughly examined and passed on by the magisterium. The Declarations are then issued over the signature of the Pontiff.
We accept these teachings because we accept the Church just as we accept Christ.
Now what one does with this acceptance is another matter. Some who have a great personal devotion to Our Lady accept such declarations with great joy. Others who perhaps have a less strong personal devotion simply accept the teaching and move on.
In my case I must say that I have never really had a strong devotion to Our Blessed Mother. I prefer to pray directly to The Father, and mostly do so. However, I have also been asking for Our Lady’s help more often lately. In either case I have violated no Doctrinal declarations of the Church. Do you see what I mean?

I also am wondering more and more why it is that Mary seems to appear a lot in the catholic church.
Why not other saints?

Mary is our Spiritual Mother and We, as Her children should Honor Her. I will admit that some folks seem to go overboard sometimes, but please remember that these are personal devotions and not doctrinal issues.

Or Jesus Himself?
Or a manifistation of the Holy Spirit?
Perhaps this has happened and Im not aware of it but it’s certainly not on the frequency of the appearances of Mary.

Here you have me. The Church is fully Christ centered. Make no mistake about that.

I really do believe that true catholics do not worship Mary, and believe she is a means to come closer to her divine Son, but I am really struggling with the catholic churchs obsession with Mary, and the dogmatic requirements in relation to Mary it wants to place on me in order for me to become a catholic.

Yes, it can be a struggle, but I think you are headed in the right direction. The thing to ask yourself is this. What is the Church really asking me to believe about Mary? Is the Church going to force me to pray the Rosary or to pray any other prayer to Our Lady? Does the Church deny me direct access to Christ or the Father?
The answers to these questions should be, “No, the Church is not forcing these thing on me.”

This is one of the things that I meant when I talked earlier about the great depth and understanding of the Church. Even though you are concerned about these dogmatic beliefs, you are perfectly free to apply these beliefs in most any way you choose in your personal devotions. You may accept and act upon them, building devotions around them as some do, or you can accept them and move on to other aspects of spirituality.

The thing to do is to not let your concerns on these matters derail you and prevent you from coming into communion with The Church and receiving Christ bodily into you.

Surely it is all about Jesus.
Nothing more nothing less.
And if am right with Jesus, how can that relationships be somehow imperfected by my relationship with the catholic church?
If I am on the right road, please keep praying for me that I will see it.

Again I must say that the concepts of being “right with Jesus” and coming into “Full Union” with Christ are matters that will require much reading and prayer and discussion.
That is why I asked if I had recommended the book "Fulfillment of All Desire" to you.
There is so much to try and communicate and it is so difficult sometimes to communicate it because words are so inadequate. I do hope I am not confusing you.
Peace
James

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Im trying to understand what catholics mean when they say other christians are in imperfect union with the catholic church.

Given the claim that the catholic church contains the fullness of truth, wouldnt this imply that if you were not in perfect union with the catholic church, you couldnt be in perfect union with Christ?

But how can someone, who believes in God, His Son Jesus, His death and resurrection, and in the Real Presence, the forgiveness of sins, The 10 commandments and the greatest commandment, for example, not be in perfect union with Christ?

It seems to me one is either unified with Christ, or one is not.

I’m struggling to see this ‘‘imperfect union’’ except in the eyes of a church establishment.

Any help appreciated as always.

There is only one Truth.

As Catholics, we believe that Jesus gave the Church the fullness of Truth.

This does not mean that those who reject some parts of the Truth can’t have a relationship with Jesus, it just means that they will not have all that he wants for them to have.

As an example, non Catholics cannot have the bond with Christ that we have in the celebration of the Eucharist.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

To everyone who has taken the time out to help me here - it’s mighty appreciated.

Ive got somewhere to be right now but very quickly:

SSTeacher and JRKH thank you especially.

JRKH - you have a certain skill with words that somehow manages to give me the one thing I need right then.

I’ll elaborate later.

For now, just know after a very difficult RCIA session last week I wasnt going to go back.

Tonight I am.

Thanks again.

I’ll write more later tonight when I get back.

 

[TheosisM]

To everyone who has taken the time out to help me here - it’s mighty appreciated.

Ive got somewhere to be right now but very quickly:

SSTeacher and JRKH thank you especially.

JRKH - you have a certain skill with words that somehow manages to give me the one thing I need right then.

I’ll elaborate later.

For now, just know after a very difficult RCIA session last week I wasnt going to go back.

Tonight I am.

Thanks again.

I’ll write more later tonight when I get back.

That’s good. Remember, you shouldn’t accept everything just because we (and the RCIA instructor) say it’s the Truth. You need to know for yourself as well. Prayer is a very important part of this process.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

How do you understand salvation? If you believe people are saved in isolation, as Evangelicals invariably do, then you can be saved by kneeling down at your bed and reciting the “Sinner’s Prayer” following which you can choose to join whatever denomination takes your fancy (or not join one at all). But if you understand salvation to be a process and believe we are saved not as individuals but that we are saved together then being outside the Church is hardly helpful.

Are you saying the catholics are saved as a group Or are they saved as an individual. My understanding at the present time leads me to believe I am saved as an individual, the fact I belong to this or that church I dont think necessarily makes it easier for me to be saved. There are many many catholics whos salvation Im prepared to wager is far from a sure thing!

I don’t think any Catholic ought to feel that he or she was being forced to accept doctrine. So I’m beginning to see your main difficulty slowly emerging. Is it not that the central question for you is: By What Authority?

It could be. Ive been told in no uncertain terms its all or nothing. Ive been told I have to accept all of the teachings of the church, or I cant be a catholic because the church cannot err. Im not convinced of that yet.

I suggest that you ask yourself this: How do I know for certain I am “right” with Jesus?

I believe in the instruction given to the young man by Jesus Himself: go sell everything and follow me.

Im fully prepared to do this.

I just need to know the catholic church is where Christ wants me to do it.

I simply dont believe yet that the catholic church is everything it claims to be

I will indeed continue to pray for you.

Thank you. I need them.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

JRKH you said on another thread something to the effect of how could Joseph have had intercourse with Mary given she was the mother of Jesus, the Son of God, and then said something life wife or no wife you know you couldnt do it.

Apart from making me laugh, I also got something from it.

Like I said, you have a certain way with words

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Mick reading back I realise I didnt answer your question.

I dont currently know Im right with Jesus.

Im also not sure of the ability of a catholic church to tell me whether I am or not either.

I do know that my spiritual life is growing,

How?

Well, an increasing desire to pray and pray and pray, the ‘‘need’’ to attend at Mass and worship, a burning desire to be able to receive the Eucharist, talking to God, ,literally, all the time, a small corner I almost involuntarily set up so I can pray without distraction, the changing of certain lifetime habits as I know these hurt Jesus, and how much He has suffered that I might have a shot at salvation, to name some.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5865695:

How do you understand salvation? If you believe people are saved in isolation, as Evangelicals invariably do, then you can be saved by kneeling down at your bed and reciting the “Sinner’s Prayer” following which you can choose to join whatever denomination takes your fancy (or not join one at all). But if you understand salvation to be a process and believe we are saved not as individuals but that we are saved together then being outside the Church is hardly helpful.

Are you saying the catholics are saved as a group Or are they saved as an individual. My understanding at the present time leads me to believe I am saved as an individual, the fact I belong to this or that church I dont think necessarily makes it easier for me to be saved. There are many many catholics whos salvation Im prepared to wager is far from a sure thing!

I’m proposing that Catholics are saved as a group (inside the Catholic Church) and that Catholic belief is that salvation is a process that takes place over the lifetime of a Catholic with the outcome being unknown in this life. The belief that one is saved as an individual is an Evangelical understanding. In this view, salvation is an event that takes place at a certain point in the individual’s life and from that point onward the individual concerned has an assurance of salvation. Within the Evangelical world there are two camps – Calvinists and Arminans. Calvinists believe that they cannot “lose their salvation” whereas Arminians concede that there’s a possibility that they can “lose their salvation.” Both groups have a very legalistic understanding of salvation – like me having a piece of paper that reads, “Dear Mick, You’re saved,” and then ethereally signed and dated. Your understanding of salvation sounds to me like an Evangelical understanding and not a Catholic understanding. I encourage you to check with a Catholic priest, though. Don’t take my word for it.

SSTeacher;5865695:

I don’t think any Catholic ought to feel that he or she was being forced

to accept doctrine. So I’m beginning to see your main difficulty slowly emerging. Is it not that the central question for you is: By What Authority?It could be. Ive been told in no uncertain terms its all or nothing. Ive been told I have to accept all of the teachings of the church, or I cant be a catholic because the church cannot err. Im not convinced of that yet.

Understood.

SSTeacher;5865695:

I suggest that you ask yourself this: How do I know for certain I am “right” with Jesus?

I believe in the instruction given to the young man by Jesus Himself: go sell everything and follow me.

Im fully prepared to do this.

I just need to know the catholic church is where Christ wants me to do it.

I simply dont believe yet that the catholic church is everything it claims to be

I encourage you to keep at it. Don’t give up!

Mick reading back I realise I didnt answer your question.

I dont currently know Im right with Jesus.

Im also not sure of the ability of a catholic church to tell me whether I am or not either.

I do know that my spiritual life is growing,

How?

Well, an increasing desire to pray and pray and pray, the ‘‘need’’ to attend at Mass and worship, a burning desire to be able to receive the Eucharist, talking to God, ,literally, all the time, a small corner I almost involuntarily set up so I can pray without distraction, the changing of certain lifetime habits as I know these hurt Jesus, and how much He has suffered that I might have a shot at salvation, to name some.

So wonderful to read about your desire to pray! But I can see that you’re going through a challenging time. I would say you’re in the middle of a spiritual battle. For we Christians that’s the daily routine. But we just have to press on. We can do no other except to take up our respective crosses every single day.

Saint Paul, who you’ll recall enjoins continual prayer, has words of encouragement.

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

I’ll continue to pray for you every day. May God bless you.

Peace,
Mick

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I’m proposing that Catholics are saved as a group (inside the Catholic Church) and that Catholic belief is that salvation is a process that takes place over the lifetime of a Catholic with the outcome being unknown in this life.

That’s kinda how I understand it too though.

To work out my salvation daily in fear and trembling.

I dont understand how you get saved as a group.

I dont think God will say to me, man, you were baaaaaaaaaaad, but then hey, you heard me, finally, and became a catholic, so youre good to go; see the quatermaster block D for your wings and halo.

Surely any chance of salvation I have is contingent on what I do from now, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, not whether Im a catholic or not.

I dont believe I can just kneel down, say God Im sorry forgive me, and Im saved once and for all.

 

[josie_L]

That’s kinda how I understand it too though.

To work out my salvation daily in fear and trembling.

I dont understand how you get saved as a group.

**I dont think God will say to me, man, you were baaaaaaaaaaad, but then hey, you heard me, finally, and became a catholic, so youre good to go; see the quatermaster block D for your wings and halo. **

**Surely any chance of salvation I have is contingent on what I do from now, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, not whether Im a catholic or not. **

I dont believe I can just kneel down, say God Im sorry forgive me, and Im saved once and for all.

I don’t believe that’s what the Church teaches, the “there is no salvation outside the Church” (not what you think it means) is expressed quite nicely in Lumen Gentium. You may want to read it in order to gain greater insight.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH you said on another thread something to the effect of how could Joseph have had intercourse with Mary given she was the mother of Jesus, the Son of God, and then said something life wife or no wife you know you couldnt do it.

Apart from making me laugh, I also got something from it.

Like I said, you have a certain way with words

I hope it helped.
As far as having a way with words, if I do, it is God’s doing not mine.

As to the other post, re: the perpetual virginity, to me it is just plain old common sense. I don’t need chapter and verse, or any deep theological explanation on this. All I have to do is Place myself in Joseph’s sandals as I read the first parts of Matthew and Luke. I mean Joseph is visited by an angel who tell him that the Mary is pregnant by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Then He witnesses the Shepards coming at the birth with stories of heavenly hosts announcing the birth. Then come the Kings from the East, the prophesies of Simeon and finally another visit by an Angel telling Him to flee into Egypt.
After all of these amazing events surrounding the conception and birth of Jesus, am I to believe that Joseph looked at Mary as just his wife?? That he had any right, or desire, to enter this vessel which held His Lord?
No - I have to say that of all of the Marion Doctrines this one is by far the easiest to accept.

Peace
James

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5872048:

I’m proposing that Catholics are saved as a group (inside the Catholic Church) and that Catholic belief is that salvation is a process that takes place over the lifetime of a Catholic with the outcome being unknown in this life.

That’s kinda how I understand it too though.

To work out my salvation daily in fear and trembling.

I don’t understand how you get saved as a group.

Christ explained it like this:

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Saint Paul enlarged:

The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body – whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free – and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

But perhaps the most compelling passage of Scripture to endorse the idea that there can’t possibly be any such thing as a “Lone Ranger Christian” is Christ’s prayer for us recorded in John 17:

Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name – the name you gave me – so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.

Biblically,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

I don’t think God will say to me, man, you were baaaaaaaaaaad, but then hey, you heard me, finally, and became a catholic, so you’re good to go; see the quartermaster block D for your wings and halo.

Bold speculation, indeed! But what we know for definite – because the writer of Hebrews tells us so – is that nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. And we also know that we’ll be called upon to account for our lives in great detail. Saint Matthew tells us that Christ Himself warned:

But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

So it’s clearly essential that we Christians pray with much earnestness for a good defense before the dread judgment seat of Christ.

Surely any chance of salvation I have is contingent on what I do from now, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, not whether I’m a catholic or not.

That’s one way of looking at it – with the hope of salvation at the top of your list. An “assurance of salvation” is certainly the first thing Evangelicals expect from God. It’s a perfectly natural response, of course, since our natural instinct is in survival. But I’m not sure that putting salvation at the top of the list in any way aids repentance.

I don’t believe I can just kneel down, say God I’m sorry forgive me, and I’m saved once and for all.

I’m relieved that you’ve successfully negotiated your way around this (admittedly attractive) idea. It’s a post–Reformation Western notion favored by latter–day Evangelicals because it aligns with the extra–biblical innovation known as the “altar call.” It has nothing whatsoever to do with historic Christianity.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[josie_L]

That’s kinda how I understand it too though.

To work out my salvation daily in fear and trembling.

I dont understand how you get saved as a group.

I dont think God will say to me, man, you were baaaaaaaaaaad, but then hey, you heard me, finally, and became a catholic, so youre good to go; see the quatermaster block D for your wings and halo.

Surely any chance of salvation I have is contingent on what I do from now, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, not whether Im a catholic or not.

I dont believe I can just kneel down, say God Im sorry forgive me, and Im saved once and for all.

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.*(13*)

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.** They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.** Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end.** (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[FCEGM]

That’s kinda how I understand it too though.

To work out my salvation daily in fear and trembling.

I dont understand how you get saved as a group.

I dont think God will say to me, man, you were baaaaaaaaaaad, but then hey, you heard me, finally, and became a catholic, so youre good to go; see the quatermaster block D for your wings and halo.

Surely any chance of salvation I have is contingent on what I do from now, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, not whether Im a catholic or not.

I dont believe I can just kneel down, say God Im sorry forgive me, and Im saved once and for all.

Guy, I just began reading The Apostles by the Holy Father, and you came to mind as I read the first chapter:

". . .from the first moment of his salvific activity, Jesus of Nazareth strives to gather together the People of God. Even if his preaching is also an appeal for personal conversion, in reality he continually aims to build the People of God whom he came to bring together, purify and save.

"As a result, therefore, therefore, an individualistic interpretation of Christ’s proclamation of the Kingdom, specific to liberal theology, is unilitaral and without foundation, as a great liberal theologian Adolf von Harnack sumed it up in the year 1900 in his lessons on the essence of Christianity. ‘The Kingdom of God, insofar as it comes to single individuals, is able to enter their soul and is welcomed by them. The Kingdom of God is the dominion of God, certainly, but it is the dominion of the holy God in individual hearts.’

"In reality, this individualism of liberal theology is a typically modern accentuation: in the perspective of biblical tradition and on the horizon of Judaism, where the work of Jesus is situated in all its novelty, it is clear that the entire mission of the Son-made-flesh, has a communitarian finality. He truly came to unite dispersed humanity; he truly came to unite the People of God. An evident sign of the intention of the Nazarene to gather together the community of the Covenant, to demonstrate in it the fulfillment of the promises made to the Fathers who, always speak of convocation, unification, unity, is the institution of the Twelve. . . .

". . .The number twelve, which evidently refers to the twelve tribes of Israel, already reveals the meaning of the prophetic symbolic action implicity in the new initiative to re-establish the holy people. As the system of the twelve tribes had long ago faded out, the hope of Israel awaited their restoration as a sign of the eschatalogical time (as referred to at the end of the Book of Ezakiel: 37:15-19; 39:23-29; 40-48).

". . .We cannot have Jesus without the reality he created and in which he communicates himself. Between the Son of God-made-flesh and his Church there is a profound, unbreakable mysterious continuity by which Christ is present today in his people. He is always contemporary with us; he is also contemporary with the Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles and alive in the succession of the Apostles. And his very presence in the community, in which he himself is always with us, is the reason for our joy. . . "