Impossibility of free will

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Another small sign for the free will.
How has this determinism been able to produce the knowledge of itself? In other words, if we see a crazy criminal, there’s someone, in our society, who gives him some chemical cure (discovered and synthesized by some - or a lot of - other man who couldn’t have free will because of this determinism) and cures him (only because his determinism forces him to make so, obviously). Can we clearly find the deterministic causes of all of this?
 
Another small sign for the free will.
How has this determinism been able to produce the knowledge of itself?
Benvenuto, Alberto! Welcome to the forum. 🙂

A very large sign! The key word is “How?” No one has ever explained how** inanimate **objects have acquired the ability to know they exist and understand themselves…
 
It only seems odd for materialists who ignore the power of thoughts and suggestions to control and influence the body. The real questions are:
  1. Why you do believe any of your conclusions are true if you have no control over your thoughts?"
Because I don’t believe my conscious awareness, by itself, is the final arbiter of truth - external evidence imposes itself upon us, as we interact with the world.
  1. Are you compelled to believe your conclusions are true even when they are mistaken?
If I may say so, that is a far better question to ask of a religious believer - one who is committed to particular positions regardless of evidence, on pain of excommunication or damnation, or some other purportedly negative consequence. Be that as it may, if I am mistaken, I will either know I am so or not - if the former, I am quite capable of adapting my beliefs to the available evidence; if not, then how would I be expected to know any better? According to Catholic theology, I am currently acting upon a supposition that I somehow know to be untrue, despite all the evidence that supports it - that is, the nonexistence of the Christian god. How do you, as a Catholic, draw such a conclusion about my experience and capabilities? Are you compelled to believe I am in error, or do you consciously and deliberately choose to do so?
  1. Are you compelled to believe **all **your conclusions are true?
I believe according to my experience and the way my brain processes that experience, as does everyone - if that is compulsion, then yes, I am compelled to believe that what I think is the truth actually is the truth. I cannot act upon that which I don’t implicitly believe is true.
  1. If not why do you believe this particular conclusion is true?
If we act upon what we believe is true, why doesn’t your god, if he exists, give us better, more convincing evidence that is not more parsimoniously explained in naturalistic terms?
 
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.
  • Arthur Schopenhauer
So much for “free will”.
 
It only seems odd for materialists who ignore the power of thoughts and suggestions to control and influence the body. The real questions are:
External evidence has to be interpreted correctly; otherwise we are far more likely to be mistaken if we cannot choose.
2. Are you compelled to believe your conclusions are true even when they are mistaken?
If I may say so, that is a far better question to ask of a religious believer - one who is committed to particular positions regardless of evidence, on pain of excommunication or damnation, or some other purportedly negative consequence.

The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.
Be that as it may, if I am mistaken, I will either know I am so or not - if the former, I am quite capable of adapting my beliefs to the available evidence; if not, then how would I be expected to know any better? According to Catholic theology, I am currently acting upon a supposition that I somehow know to be untrue, despite all the evidence that supports it - that is, the nonexistence of the Christian god.
A false assertion. We are not regarded as infallible.
How do you, as a Catholic, draw such a conclusion about my experience and capabilities? Are you compelled to believe I am in error, or do you consciously and deliberately choose to do so?
I choose to believe you are in error.
  1. Are you compelled to believe all your conclusions are true?
    I believe according to my experience and the way my brain processes that experience, as does everyone - if that is compulsion, then yes, I am compelled to believe that what I think is the truth actually is the truth. I cannot act upon that which I don’t implicitly believe is true.
Never?
4. If not why do you believe this particular conclusion is true?
If we act upon what we believe is true, why doesn’t your god, if he exists, give us better, more convincing evidence that is not more parsimoniously explained in naturalistic terms?

If evidence were coercive it would defeat the purpose of giving us the power to choose what to believe and how to live.
 
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.
  • Arthur Schopenhauer
So much for “free will”.
That rather presents a problem doesn’t it? For example:

I will to get an apple from the fridge; I do it.

But I didn’t actually will it. So did I actually do it?

God love you,
sandomenico
 
How?

Willing is a necessary part of action, according to the first part of that quote.

But willing implies that an individual chooses to perform some action. It involves a direct choice. Choice involves the discrimination among options.

Musn’t, then, free choice be a part of willing?

God love you,
sandomenico
 
How?

Willing is a necessary part of action, according to the first part of that quote.

But willing implies that an individual chooses to perform some action. It involves a direct choice. Choice involves the discrimination among options.

Musn’t, then, free choice be a part of willing?
Willing may imply that an individual chooses to perform some action, but it doesn’t insist on it. You can be willed to do something by other means. Now, you can split hairs and say that, in determinism, that that causal factors that will you to choose X are themselves choosing X. But to avoid a conversation about this that isn’t hopelessly abstract, I think we have to personalize this, at least superficially. After all, a lack of free will doesn’t negate the general concept of morality, or moral truth, or even moral responsibility. I’m not even certain it’s truly that incoherent to blame anybody for their bad behavior - given that they could not have chosen otherwise. After all, a blame response can act as negative reinforcement and an experience that may, in some cases, influence future behavior.
 
That rather presents a problem doesn’t it? For example:

I will to get an apple from the fridge; I do it.

But I didn’t actually will it. So did I actually do it?

God love you,
sandomenico
You willed to get the apple from the fridge. But the will was just an intention that popped in your mind and then you followed it, with the impression that you are exercising “free will”.
 
You willed to get the apple from the fridge. But the will was just an intention that popped in your mind and then you followed it, with the impression that you are exercising “free will”.
In other words we are robots!
 
External evidence has to be interpreted correctly; otherwise we are far more likely to be mistaken if we cannot choose.
Why more likely? Why, if our actions are the result - ultimately, in philosophical terms - of external causes, is it less likely that we will be right? Let us take a probable historical example. I have been told that drinking a decoction of dandelion and elderflower (or some other combination of vegetative essences) will cure the plague. I give this brew to a member of my family who is showing all the symptoms of the plague, and yet they still die. I try this again when the next member of my family succumbs - thinking that there might have been some other factor that contributed to the failure of this remedy - and they also die. If I choose to try this same remedy for the next member of my family who contracts the plague, am I being foolish or am I just hedging my bets? Why might I not be compelled by the evidence of prior failure to try something different?
The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.
And are we, as individuals, ultimately responsible for the construction of our consciences? If not, how can we claim to be ultimately responsible for any of our choices or actions?
A false assertion. We are not regarded as infallible.
Actually, as I have been told, since I have been exposed to “knowledge” of Christianity, through being brought up in a Catholic family, I am the more to be condemned for rejecting it than anyone who has not had such exposure; the implication is that somehow, there is something about Christian theology that speaks of truth, and that denying this “truth” is reprehensible, because it should be obvious. There is no room for infallibility in this equation - the truth of Christianity is supposed to speak for itself. What happens when it doesn’t?
I choose to believe you are in error.
Upon what grounds? Do you have any reasons for your choice?
If evidence were coercive it would defeat the purpose of giving us the power to choose what to believe and how to live.
Evidence need not be coercive in order to be convincing. I don’t consider myself coerced to believe that if I jump out of a 10th-floor window without safety apparatus, I will fall to my death. I am still free, in theory, to do this if I am prepared to accept the consequences. Given that we actually have no way of knowing the consequences of belief or disbelief in God, based on evidence, then we really have no basis upon which to make a genuine choice. We just have superstition. Those of us who reject superstition consider the matter of belief in gods of any species to be functionally irrelevant to the matter of how we live.
 
In other words we are robots!
How could we be anything different? The notion of free will is as incoherent as a squared circle. It seems to be the limited perspective of the ego that blinds man to the origin of his thoughts and actions and thus generates the illusion of his independence from a wider context.
 
External evidence has to be interpreted correctly; otherwise we are far more likely to be mistaken if we cannot choose.
Philosophical questions are not so simple. They are more fundamental and often far more complex.
The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.
And are we, as individuals, ultimately responsible for the construction of our consciences?
Yes.
If not, how can we claim to be ultimately responsible for any of our choices or actions?
We cannot.
We are not regarded as infallible.
Actually, as I have been told, since I have been exposed to “knowledge” of Christianity, through being brought up in a Catholic family, I am the more to be condemned for rejecting it than anyone who has not had such exposure; the implication is that somehow, there is something about Christian theology that speaks of truth, and that denying this “truth” is reprehensible, because it should be obvious. There is no room for infallibility in this equation - the truth of Christianity is supposed to speak for itself. What happens when it doesn’t?

The truth of Christianity does speak for itself but “none are so blind as those who will not see”. However it is impossible to know to what extent individuals are culpable because so many factors contribute to their decisions.
I choose to believe you are in error.
Upon what grounds? Do you have any reasons for your choice?

Many. The flaws in materialism, for example:
  1. Materialism fails to recognise the fundamental reality of purposeful activity.
  2. Materialism claims thoughts have emerged from purposeless processes.
  3. There is no evidence that purposeless processes can become purposeful.
  4. Purposeful activity is the monopoly of living organisms because they alone have the urge to survive.
  5. Materialism presupposes two transformations of inanimate objects.
  6. The first transformation is from inanimate objects to living organisms.
  7. The second transformation is from biological organisms to persons.
  8. Both transformations are based on an act of faith by the materialist in the power of time and chance to make inanimate chemical structures capable of an urge to survive, hindsight, insight, foresight, self-control and control of their environment.
  9. It is impossible to verify this hypothesis.
  10. This hypothesis is self-destructive because all physical events would be determined by physical causes.
  11. If all thoughts were determined by physical causes they would be similar to instincts which are notoriously fallible.
  12. Uncontrolled thoughts are a hopelessly inadequate source of information about themselves, their nature and their origin - and far more likely to be false than true.
If evidence were coercive it would defeat the purpose of giving us the power to choose what to believe and how to live.
Evidence need not be coercive in order to be convincing. I don’t consider myself coerced to believe that if I jump out of a 10th-floor window without safety apparatus, I will fall to my death. I am still free, in theory, to do this if I am prepared to accept the consequences.

You are **compelled **to believe you will die and you are incapable of ignoring that fact - if you are reasonable.
Given that we actually have no way of knowing the consequences of belief or disbelief in God, based on evidence, then we really have no basis upon which to make a genuine choice.
There are many consequences of belief or disbelief in God based on evidence. Otherwise believers and nonbelievers would live in precisely the same way.
We just have superstition. Those of us who reject superstition consider the matter of belief in gods of any species to be functionally irrelevant to the matter of how we live.
One could say materialists just have substition! Those who reject substition consider the matter of belief in matter to be functionally irrelevant to the matter of how we live. 🙂
 
Philosophical questions are not so simple. They are more fundamental and often far more complex.
That doesn’t actually address the question of whether or not we are compelled by evidence to make certain choices.
“And are we, as individuals, ultimately responsible for the construction of our consciences?”
Yes.
In what respects? Do we have control over the ideas with which we are imbued as children? Over our experiences of the world in general?
The truth of Christianity does speak for itself but “none are so blind as those who will not see”. However it is impossible to know to what extent individuals are culpable because so many factors contribute to their decisions.
That would appear to support my position rather than yours.
Many. The flaws in materialism, for example:
  1. Materialism fails to recognise the fundamental reality of purposeful activity.
  1. Materialism claims thoughts have emerged from purposeless processes.
  1. There is no evidence that purposeless processes can become purposeful.
  1. Purposeful activity is the monopoly of living organisms because they alone have the urge to survive.
  1. Materialism presupposes two transformations of inanimate objects.
  1. The first transformation is from inanimate objects to living organisms.
  1. The second transformation is from biological organisms to persons.
  1. Both transformations are based on an act of faith by the materialist in the power of time and chance to make inanimate chemical structures capable of an urge to survive, hindsight, insight, foresight, self-control and control of their environment.
  1. It is impossible to verify this hypothesis.
  1. This hypothesis is self-destructive because all physical events would be determined by physical causes.
  1. If all thoughts were determined by physical causes they would be similar to instincts which are notoriously fallible.
  1. Uncontrolled thoughts are a hopelessly inadequate source of information about themselves, their nature and their origin - and far more likely to be false than true.
And are you compelled to believe these things? If not, upon what basis do you decide? Do you make your decisions about what is true on the basis of internal preferences or external evidence?
You are **compelled **to believe you will die and you are incapable of ignoring that fact - if you are reasonable.
Of course - but that is how reality imposes itself upon us. If we were incapable of discerning the reality of circumstances which affect our lives and general well-being, we would hardly have survived as long as we have, much less learned how to manipulate the laws of physics for our own benefit. Why should this level of knowledge, regarding God/gods be deliberately withheld from us?
There are many consequences of belief or disbelief in God based on evidence. Otherwise believers and nonbelievers would live in precisely the same way.
The question is whether these are positive or negative consequences in terms of the welfare of sentient beings. It’s readily apparent that both believers and nonbelievers are perfectly capable of leading a benign existence, helping others where we can and refusing to engage in practices which are demonstrably harmful to others. Those who believe in ends other than the welfare of sentient beings - whether these be religious or political ends - are demonstrably capable of all manner of abuses and injustices. Doesn’t this suggest that it’s better to avoid superstition and extremist ideology?
One could say materialists just have substition! Those who reject substition consider the matter of belief in matter to be functionally irrelevant to the matter of how we live. 🙂
Given that physical entities and forces demonstrably exist and have effects upon our individual and collective existence, these seem to be a much sounder basis for belief than supposedly “immaterial” or “supernatural” entities which, on the basis of any evidence so far discerned, may exist or not for all the impact they have.
 
Philosophical questions are not so simple. They are more fundamental and often far more complex.
If we were compelled by evidence we would all make the same choices!
“And are we, as individuals, ultimately responsible for the construction of our consciences?”
Yes.
In what respects? Do we have control over the ideas with which we are imbued as children?
Your rejection of Catholicism answers that question.
Over our experiences of the world in general?
Differences of opinion in science and other subjects answer that question.
The truth of Christianity does speak for itself but “none are so blind as those who will not see”. However it is impossible to know to what extent individuals are culpable because so many factors contribute to their decisions.
That would appear to support my position rather than yours.

How?
  1. Materialism fails to recognise the fundamental reality of purposeful activity.
  1. Materialism claims thoughts have emerged from purposeless processes.
  1. There is no evidence that purposeless processes can become purposeful.
  1. Purposeful activity is the monopoly of living organisms because they alone have the urge to survive.
  1. Materialism presupposes two transformations of inanimate objects.
  1. The first transformation is from inanimate objects to living organisms.
  1. The second transformation is from biological organisms to persons.
  1. Both transformations are based on an act of faith by the materialist in the power of time and chance to make inanimate chemical structures capable of an urge to survive, hindsight, insight, foresight, self-control and control of their environment.
  1. It is impossible to verify this hypothesis.
  1. This hypothesis is self-destructive because all physical events would be determined by physical causes.
  1. If all thoughts were determined by physical causes they would be similar to instincts which are notoriously fallible.
  1. Uncontrolled thoughts are a hopelessly inadequate source of information about themselves, their nature and their origin - and far more likely to be false than true.
No response!
And are you compelled to believe these things? If not, upon what basis do you decide? Do you make your decisions about what is true on the basis of internal preferences or external evidence?
I choose to believe on the basis of direct personal experience, inferences from my perceptions, information received about the personal experiences of others and their inferences.
You are compelled to believe you will die and you are incapable of ignoring that fact - if you are reasonable.
Of course - but that is how reality imposes itself upon us. If we were incapable of discerning the reality of circumstances which affect our lives and general well-being, we would hardly have survived as long as we have, much less learned how to manipulate the laws of physics for our own benefit.

It is only physical reality that imposes itself on us - and only to a certain extent. We vary widely in our responses. Nor does the need to survive require the pursuit of art, music, mathematics, science or philosophy.
Why should this level of knowledge, regarding God/gods be deliberately withheld from us?
I have already pointed out that we lose our independence of thought and action. Do you favour brainwashing? 🙂
There are many consequences of belief or disbelief in God based on evidence. Otherwise believers and nonbelievers would live in precisely the same way.
The question is whether these are positive or negative consequences in terms of the welfare of sentient beings. It’s readily apparent that both believers and nonbelievers are perfectly capable of leading a benign existence, helping others where we can and refusing to engage in practices which are demonstrably harmful to others.

The fact that not everyone does do is evidence that they are not compelled.
Those who believe in ends other than the welfare of sentient beings - whether these be religious or political ends - are demonstrably capable of all manner of abuses and injustices.
Opinions differ widely about what constitutes welfare.
Doesn’t this suggest that it’s better to avoid superstition and extremist ideology?
It proves that it’s better to avoid substition and the extremist ideology of materialism which reduces persons to robots.
One could say materialists just have substition! Those who reject substition consider the matter of belief in matter to be functionally irrelevant to the matter of how we live.
Given that physical entities and forces demonstrably exist and have effects upon our individual and collective existence, these seem to be a much sounder basis for belief than supposedly “immaterial” or “supernatural” entities which, on the basis of any evidence so far discerned, may exist or not for all the impact they have.

Intangible ideas, thoughts, principles, goals and decisions exist even without the need to be demonstrated and they have far deeper and significant effects on our individual and collective existence than material objects.
 
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