Impressions of the Tridentine Mass

[CradleCath]

It is actually quite easy to know what is going on during a Latin Mass…the Missal, which if you read prior to Mass, explains everything that is going on…i.e. Priest ascends the Altar, Missal on the Epistle side of the Altar, Missal on the Gospel side of the Altar, Priest says things such as Dominus Vobiscum…Oremus, Orates Frates…Pater Noster…Credo…Glori…etc., bells rung once, bells rung three times…really, there are countless ways to keep up with what is going on during the Latin Mass…is it somewhat challenging at first…yes it is, however do I believe you will find great reward in putting forth the effort to learn…yes I do.

So do I. And my advice to those who want to celebrate Mass in the EF. form is… don’t give up after 1-2 Masses. Think about the first time few times you attended the Novus Ordo. If you were born into the faith, you kind of “grew into the Mass”. However, if you’re a convert, I’ll bet that you had the same feelings of confusion the first time you celebrated the Novus Ordo. I’ll wager that you didn’t exactly know what was going on, when to kneel…when to stand, a “whoops I can’t find the creed in the missal & I don’t have it memorized yet” feeling. You probably didn’t know exactly when the Consecration of the host began or which Eucharistic Prayer had been chosen for the day.

It takes a little time to get to know the EF. form of the Mass, just as it did to learn the Novus Ordo or anything that is truly worthwhile. But, as you said…the results are more than worth the effort.

 

[Brendan]

How can you really ‘unite yourself in prayer with the priest and his intentions’ if you have little clue what he’s saying most of the time?

It’s not the priest’s prayer that you are uniting yourself to, but your own personal prayer.

Because of our Baptism, we too are priests, we share the Common Priesthood. That is different in kind and degree from the priest, but it is still a priesthood itself.

As priests, we too are called to offer Sacrifice at Mass. But a priest can offer offer what they posess.

The Ministerial Priest, in persona Christi, offers Christ Himself. We, as the Common Priests, offer ourselves, our bodies, our wills our intellect.

As such, our priestly prayers at Mass will, of necessity, differ from that of the Minsterial Priest.

That is why, at the EF Mass, we do not hear the Eucharistic Prayer. It is a prayer between the priest, as Christ, and God the Father. We have no need to hear it, in the same way as the rest of the congreagation has no need to hear our personal prayers of sacrifice.

I would highly recommend reading Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. He devotes an entire chapter to what active paritication is and why it requires silence ( and he does so much more elequently that I can )

 

[CradleCath]

It is true that some people have to have visuals, and stimulation
to appreciate God or well, anything. And I am not saying this is wrong, it’s just that this is true. Others, can enjoy God on a mountaintop, in a tent, without any “visuals” to “up the spirit”

This is all about “emotions”, Where one person can break out in an all out cry over a sad movie, others just tear up. It is our nature to NEED different things. I can no more make that one person break out in an all out cry than I can make someone enjoy one mass over the other.

Actually, it’s not about emotions, or visuals or feelings for me. While I do like the reverence of the TLM & the people who attend it, it’s about the PRAYERS:

** "We therefore beseech thee, O Lord, to be appeased**

, and to receive this offering of our bounden duty, as also of thy whole household; order our days in thy peace; grant that we be rescued from eternal damnation and counted within the fold of thine elect. Through Christ our Lord. Amen"

.

Where in the Novus Ordo is the appeasement of God mentioned?, for this is why the Sacrifice of the Lamb was first offered & why it’s still offered, in the unblody form, today.

And yet another prayer…part of the Roman Canon…helps me to remember & honor those who have died that I might still have this Holy Church:

“Communicating, and reverencing the memory first of the glorious Mary, ever a virgin, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ; likewise of thy blessed apostles and martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, p. 466 Matthew, Simon and Thaddeus; of Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, john and Paul, Cosmas and Damian, and of all thy saints; by whose merits and prayers grant that in all things we may be guarded by thy protecting help. (He joins his hands together.) Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen”.

This prayer also reminds me that I am never alone in my struggle to be a good Catholic. I am surrounded by an unseen world that prays for me, a world that I am a part of simply because I’m a Catholic. To God be the Glory!!!

No, it’s not the emotions…it’s not even the reverence or the silence (though I must say that those things are an added bonus), it’s the Mass itself.

The following prayer, first the Latin, then the literal translation,
then the ICEL’s prayer for the Novus Ordo:

"

POST COMMUNIONEM (ad Missam in Vigilia):
Sacris dapibus satiatos,
beati Ioannis Baptistae nos, Domine,
praeclara comitetur oratio,
et, quem Agnum nostra ablaturum crimina nuntiavit,
ipsum Filium tuum poscat nobis fore placatum.

LITERAL VERSION:
O Lord, may the excellent prayer of blessed John the Baptist
accompany us, filled to satiety with the sacred sacrificial meal,
and may it urge that Your Son Himself,
whom it declared was the Lamb about to take away our offenses,
will be appeased in our regard.

This is how the prayer ended up after the ICEL got finished with it. See much similarity??
ICEL (1973 translation of the 1970MR):

Father,
may the prayers of John the Baptist
lead us to the Lamb of God.
May this eucharist bring us the mercy of Christ.

 

[agoukass]

I attended Latin Masses for a long time before I switched and started attending the NO.

One of the things that I have noticed helps some people is to use a prayer book in which different parts are given for each part of the Mass. When the priest and the servers come to the altar, one would meditate on Christ being brought before Pilate, for example.

My Benedictine prayer book from over a hundred years ago has prayers like this. It’s not a missal, but it might help with getting into the devotional spirit of the Latin Mass.

 

[Auntie_M]

I first converted over 6 years ago. I did not do it by studing this and that. I had never been to a Catholic church or for that matter never even knew a Catholic. but I prayed and prayed for over 10 years before I got my answer as to what is the true religion and where God wanted me to be.

I was definitely led to the Catholic Church beyond any doubt. Co incidence after coincidence (and I really don’t believe in coincidence) verified that I was where God wanted me to be.

People who know me saw the miracles that were happening to lead me to the faith. I had been a “borned again” Christian in the Protestant faith for over 45 years. But God still led me to the Catholic faith. And that first mass I went to, was unbelievable!
I knew nothing of what the Catholic Church was about. But God gave me the “sense” to know He was there with a peace I had never before known.

This was a Novus Ordo as it is called. I felt God there and He
is still there, he hasn’t left. I did visit one Latin Mass (FSSP) and it was very pretty, but I got the “sense” that I was just watching a nice performance. There was no “bad” feeling or “good” feeling, I just did not feel connected to any of this.

I also, visited another church (Latin Mass) but this was by (SSPX)
I went to mass there about 5 times. And each time was the same. I couldn’t WAIT to get out of there. I DID not get the same good feeling. I actually felt evil all around me. And when the priest started bashing the Pope and talking about “we are the only ones that are still Catholics”. I realize why I had such a “scared, evil feeling”. I left and never went back.

The is NOTHING wrong with the Latin Mass per se, but there is definitely alot wrong with the SSPX.

The Holy Spirit lets me know when I’m in the wrong place and when I am doing something not pleasing.

God knows what our needs are before we ever pray. So long lenghty prayers, or even short “written” prayers can be just as equally good. Also, I have even gotten prayers answered just having a little conversation with Him. But whatever makes you feel connected more then that is the way you should go.

But, just for fun, try just talking with Him as if He is right there with you. These kind of prayers come straight from the heart and God does hear them. Pray for wisdom and He will grant it.

 

[Auntie_M]

Actually, it’s not about emotions, or visuals or feelings for me. While I do like the reverence of the TLM & the people who attend it, it’s about the PRAYERS:

.

Where in the Novus Ordo is the appeasement of God mentioned?, for this is why the Sacrifice of the Lamb was first offered & why it’s still offered, in the unblody form, today.

And yet another prayer…part of the Roman Canon…helps me to remember & honor those who have died that I might still have this Holy Church:

This prayer also reminds me that I am never alone in my struggle to be a good Catholic. I am surrounded by an unseen world that prays for me, a world that I am a part of simply because I’m a Catholic. To God be the Glory!!!

No, it’s not the emotions…it’s not even the reverence or the silence (though I must say that those things are an added bonus), it’s the Mass itself.

The following prayer, first the Latin, then the literal translation,
then the ICEL’s prayer for the Novus Ordo:

"

I beg to disagree. When you love someone, isn’t it a “feeling”, an “emotion”. When you pray (either prayer), you do “feel” love for God, don’t you, so the emotions are a strong part of prayer.

If you just “say” the words without emotion, it just isn’t the same, is it? Kinda like just going through the motions. No Emotions are a very strong part of prayer whether it be a lengthy written prayer, a short “child’s prayer” or just a “I love you dear Jesus”. Love is an emotion.

It is not for us to say which prayer Jesus would prefer. We do have some beautiful Latin prayers to use, but we also have simple prayers in english. And they both can have the same meaning and are equally good.

Example, I can say, “I lived down the road, past the service station
and then go about another 1/2 mile, well actually it is not quite a half mile, more like a little over a quarter of a mile. But continue on till you see a big white house, two story. You’ll also see some roses in the front yard that I planted last year, and a bird bath”

OR I can say. “I live on Noname Street, number 114.”

You are still saying the same thing. You are still getting the same message across. As St. Francis said, Preach the Gospel everywhere, and if necessary, use words.

You know, Jesus, really can read our minds. He knows what we need before we even ask…

 

[PrayforMallory]

I beg to disagree. When you love someone, isn’t it a “feeling”, an “emotion”. When you pray (either prayer), you do “feel” love for God, don’t you, so the emotions are a strong part of prayer.

If you just “say” the words without emotion, it just isn’t the same, is it? Kinda like just going through the motions. No Emotions are a very strong part of prayer whether it be a lengthy written prayer, a short “child’s prayer” or just a “I love you dear Jesus”. Love is an emotion.

It is not for us to say which prayer Jesus would prefer. We do have some beautiful Latin prayers to use, but we also have simple prayers in english. And they both can have the same meaning and are equally good.

Example, I can say, “I lived down the road, past the service station
and then go about another 1/2 mile, well actually it is not quite a half mile, more like a little over a quarter of a mile. But continue on till you see a big white house, two story. You’ll also see some roses in the front yard that I planted last year, and a bird bath”

OR I can say. “I live on Noname Street, number 114.”

You are still saying the same thing. You are still getting the same message across. As St. Francis said, Preach the Gospel everywhere, and if necessary, use words.

You know, Jesus, really can read our minds. He knows what we need before we even ask…

Forgive me, but you give me the impression that those of us who prefer the Latin Mass sincerely bother you, as if its existence calls something into question for you.

I got all these feelings at the Latin Mass.

The Novus Ordo seemed silly to me.

 

[Auntie_M]

Forgive me, but you give me the impression that those of us who prefer the Latin Mass sincerely bother you, as if its existence calls something into question for you.

I got all these feelings at the Latin Mass.

The Novus Ordo seemed silly to me.

The Latin Mass, that is where the people are in communion with the Rome, is wonderful.

Where I do have a problem is with the others who say things like…
“Vatican 11 is intrinsically evil”

“The Pope is the anti Christ”

“We don’t recognize any Popes since Pius X”

“We are the only Catholics going to heaven”

"The excommunication wasn’t legal, the ordinations were “necessary”.

“We are in communion with the Pope” (although the Vatican says they aren’t)

THAT is what bothers me. I have no problem with the Latin Mass, it’s the people who are “leading” others astray.

When the priest bashes “modernist NO” and the Vatican IN MASS, I do have a problem with that. I don’t go to hear a HATE sermon.

 

[Auntie_M]

Forgive me, but you give me the impression that those of us who prefer the Latin Mass sincerely bother you, as if its existence calls something into question for you.

I got all these feelings at the Latin Mass.

The Novus Ordo seemed silly to me.

That is very odd. Would you care to share what parts seem “silly”. I would be very interested to know your thoughts on this.

I really have not seen “silly” in the parishes I have visited when traveling nor do I see “silly” in my home parish.

 

[PrayforMallory]

That is very odd. Would you care to share what parts seem “silly”. I would be very interested to know your thoughts on this.

I really have not seen “silly” in the parishes I have visited when traveling nor do I see “silly” in my home parish.

Should have said, “Some parts of the OF seemed kinda silly to me, in the parishes where I went to it.”

The clapping and ****** kids music was the silliest.

Course, that aint the rubrics, that’s the way it’s implemented.

 

[PrayforMallory]

The Latin Mass, that is where the people are in communion with the Rome, is wonderful.

Where I do have a problem is with the others who say things like…
“Vatican 11 is intrinsically evil”

“The Pope is the anti Christ”

“We don’t recognize any Popes since Pius X”

“We are the only Catholics going to heaven”

"The excommunication wasn’t legal, the ordinations were “necessary”.

“We are in communion with the Pope” (although the Vatican says they aren’t)

THAT is what bothers me. I have no problem with the Latin Mass, it’s the people who are “leading” others astray.

When the priest bashes “modernist NO” and the Vatican IN MASS, I do have a problem with that. I don’t go to hear a HATE sermon.

I’ve never been to any other kind of Latin Mass community. I started going after SP.

"The excommunication wasn’t legal, the ordinations were “necessary”.

This is the only part I have questions about in that list. Deep down, I really want to admire Lefebvre without hesitation. It’s just so dramatic! Course, it’s not up to me to decide anyway.

Vatican II could probably be cleared in in a couple of encyclicals.

It would make all the liberals upset, but, they aren’t staying anyway.

Wouldn’t make anybody upset on this forum though.

I worry that as the traditional Churches expand other people might start to feel slighted. Sometimes when discussing these things it’s easy to let out an irresponsible remark.

 

[CradleCath]

A

untie M;3768729]I beg to disagree. When you love someone, isn’t it a “feeling”, an “emotion”. When you pray (either prayer), you do “feel” love for God, don’t you, so the emotions are a strong part of prayer.

“Feeling” love as an emotion is wonderful. However, to depend on emotions isn’t always wise. They are subject to fatigue, stress & to the “happenings” in our lives. I think of love both as an emotion & as a commitment. One does what one should, whether they “feel” like it or not.

If you just “say” the words without emotion, it just isn’t the same, is it? Kinda like just going through the motions. No Emotions are a very strong part of prayer whether it be a lengthy written prayer, a short “child’s prayer” or just a “I love you dear Jesus”. Love is an emotion.

I think that you might have missed my point (or I didn’t make it clear to begin with). When I said that it is the PRAYERS of the Tridentine Mass that make the difference for me, I was referring to the “tone” they set. Words such as beseech & appeased (We therefore beseech thee, O Lord, to be appeased, and to receive this offering of our bounden duty), are common in the Tridentine Mass & reflect a humility that I don’t find in the Novus Ordo.

I’m going to give a link that shows a comparison of both Masses, side by side, & I’d be interested in your thoughts. Do you find that the Novus Ordo has been stripped of much of the humility, the penitential & sacrificial nature of the old Mass? And why do you think that so many prayers were simply not included when the council “rewrote” the Mass?

BTW. My preference for the Tridentine Mass, because of the prayers it includes, has nothing to do with the length or “flowery words” of the prayers. It has to do only with what they actually say & the tone they set.

geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/compare.html

 

[Claire_from_DE]

It’s not the priest’s prayer that you are uniting yourself to, but your own personal prayer.

**I disagree.

** Because of our Baptism, we too are priests, we share the Common Priesthood. That is different in kind and degree from the priest, but it is still a priesthood itself.

As priests, we too are called to offer Sacrifice at Mass. But a priest can offer offer what they posess.

** The Ministerial Priest, in persona Christi, offers Christ Himself. We, as the Common Priests, offer ourselves, our bodies, our wills our intellect.

No, we join with** the priest in offering Jesus’ sacrifice and we offer ourselves.

As such, our priestly prayers at Mass will, of necessity, differ from that of the Minsterial Priest.

** That is why, at the EF Mass, we do not hear the Eucharistic Prayer. It is a prayer between the priest, as Christ, and God the Fathe**r.

The priest is, at the same time, the representative of the people.

We have no need to hear it, in the same way as the rest of the congreagation has no need to hear our personal prayers of sacrifice.

We need to unite ourselves with this prayer. Otherwise, why have it in the missal? Why not just have “now offer yourselves”? We join ourselves with Jesus’ sacrifice, which is the one that saves us. I personally find it helpful to hear as well as read it in order to unite myself to it but I agree we can participate in silence. I am in awe of what is happening during the Eucharistic Prayer and don’t say personal prayers of sacrifice at that time.

I would highly recommend reading Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. He devotes an entire chapter to what active paritication is and why it requires silence ( and he does so much more elequently that I can )

 

[BennyBoy89]

At the Latin Mass, the Priest says the following to each communicant: “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen” Which translates to: May the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul to life everlasting. Amen. I usually reply in my mind, silently, “Amen”

I’ve attended one EF Mass, a Low Mass, and I never realized that was what he said.

It’s absolutely beautiful. Why can’t we do it in the OF?! And for those receiving the Precious Blood, substitute “blood” for “body.”

 

[PrayforMallory]

I’ve attended one EF Mass, a Low Mass, and I never realized that was what he said.

It’s absolutely beautiful. Why can’t we do it in the OF?! And for those receiving the Precious Blood, substitute “blood” for “body.”

It is beautiful.

On the subject of beauty, check out this hymn the organist at the Church we go to wrote. I love it. I was written this year in honor of Pope Benedict!

youtube.com/watch?v=ENHsE1_Ye7g

 

[Auntie_M]

I’ve attended one EF Mass, a Low Mass, and I never realized that was what he said.

It’s absolutely beautiful. Why can’t we do it in the OF?! And for those receiving the Precious Blood, substitute “blood” for “body.”

I was under the impression that you were to ONLY take under one form and that was the body. (which is what they give to you, the blood is not even offered)

 

[LilyM]

I was under the impression that you were to ONLY take under one form and that was the body. (which is what they give to you, the blood is not even offered)

You’re getting confused. She said she wanted this prayer at the Ordinary Form Mass (the Novus Ordo or Pauline Mass), where communion is frequently offered under both species.

 

[BennyBoy89]

I was under the impression that you were to ONLY take under one form and that was the body. (which is what they give to you, the blood is not even offered)

LilyM is right. I’m talking about using this prayer in the OF Mass.

On a side note, I receive the Body of Christ on the tongue (standing) at my OF parish, but I also receive His Precious Blood.

Personally, I think both could easily be done kneeling at an altar rail.

 

[Auntie_M]

I’ve never been to any other kind of Latin Mass community. I started going after SP.

"The excommunication wasn’t legal, the ordinations were “necessary”.

This is the only part I have questions about in that list. Deep down, I really want to admire Lefebvre without hesitation. It’s just so dramatic! Course, it’s not up to me to decide anyway.

Vatican II could probably be cleared in in a couple of encyclicals.

It would make all the liberals upset, but, they aren’t staying anyway.

Wouldn’t make anybody upset on this forum though.

I worry that as the traditional Churches expand other people might start to feel slighted. Sometimes when discussing these things it’s easy to let out an irresponsible remark.

Why do you say the ordinations were legal?

He did *not *have the Papal approvals, all the while the Pope was constantly asking him not to do this and(as a last resort) threatened him with excommunication if he did. And, of course, he followed through. There was no “necessity” by his own words.

It has always been Tradition with a capital T to obey the Pope.
Pope Pius V in his papal bull declared that nothing be added or removed. This is where confusion started.

In reading about the Popes of old, Pius V evidently didn’t mean that his successors, whose authority was the same as his, could not revise it. Just as he himself altered the Missal when he added the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary the following year. And in 1585, Pope Sixtus restored the feast of the Presentation of the Virgin Mary, which Pius V had removed. And only 34 years after that Pope Clement V111 made a general revision of the Roman Missal, as did Pope Urban V111 30 years later.

I.m sorry if I offend anyone, that is not my intention. But I feel this is just Martin Luther all over again. If you admire Lefebvre, you gotta admire Luther…

(I forget the name of the book, but it was about all the Popes, I got from the Library. (BIG book) )

If we are to stick to tradition, we have to obey the Pope. He is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Mary told the people at Cana…“do what He tells you to do”…This alone should be enough.

If Jesus is unhappy with the '“Vatican” and the NO or the TLM, He will correct it, He really doesn’t need our help. When we try “helping”, we usually just screw things up. (look what we did in the Garden of Eden )

Step Back, “do what He tells you”, and let God be God.

 

[Auntie_M]

No. The context of the Mass is important. In a concert hall, I’m not offering the Sacrifice of Christ. Typically, concerts are associated with sitting, listening, and admiring - not praying. I’m not just listening when I hear sacred music. It’s unfair to try to stigmatize this form of prayer by comparing it to passively hearing a concert.

Of course listening to sacred music in any setting can be a prayerful experience! This just doesn’t commonly happen in a concert hall.

LOL

This brings back some old memories of mine. Years ago, as a Protestant, (in search for the true church), I attended a Penecostal holiness service. The music was so loud, it vibrated the seats. But EVERYONE was happy, clappy, and enjoying it to their fullest. (all in good “spiritualness” (if that’s a word?) After going a few times, I noticed that if the music was Lively, the sermons were Lively, everyone having their “blessings”. but if the music was slow and draggy, the sermon would be too and the people didn’t seem to be so happy clappy.

Please don’t get me wrong, I am NOT putting down that church.
I truly feel the people were “worshipping” the only way they knew.
But the music thing was quite unique and shows how music can influence the tone of the mass. (or service)