Improperly Catechised

[jmcrae]

There’s also another way of looking at this, although not a popular view on this very conservative Forum.

Instead of using the “poorly catechized” catch-all phrase, maybe consider that many people (actually, far more than consider themselves “traditional” or "orthodox (little o) Catholics) actually WERE “properly catechized” in the immediate pre- and post-Vatican II era, which stresses love for God and others and service to one another versus the post-reformation (until Vat II) stance which emphasized the primacy of rules, law and obedience to law under fear of hell.

It is not just a matter of what attitude is being taught - I would agree with you that an attitude of love is preferable to an attitude of fear - but you cannot love Whom you have never met, and you cannot choose to obey in love, commandments that you either can’t remember or were never taught.

Try an experiment - go around at the coffee hour and ask people whether they can name the Ten Commandments, the eight Beatitudes, and the Five Precepts of the Church.

How do people expect to obey the laws of God in love, if they can’t even name them?

I

was reared in the late 1940;s, early 1950’s, which you here would have to admit guaranteed “proper catechization” according to your standards. However – the change in theological emphasis post VII taught me that as I am adult in all other areas of my life, so too can I act as an adult in my spiritual life.

You can’t be an adult, until you have first been a child. There has to be a strong foundation of basic information to build your house of faith on, or else it will blow away in the winds of fashion, and be washed under the tides of public opinion.

 

[Redratfish]

Well something’s going to have to be done. And judging by the latest U.S. scores in math, science, and reading, it’s not only proper catechism that we should be worried about.

I couldnt agree more, it shouldn’t be where getting a 70 in a class is considered good

 

[ProVobis]

I couldnt agree more, it shouldn’t be where getting a 70 in a class is considered good

Or doing homework of any kind on the weekend condemned. I couldn’t believe parents were actually pushing this condemnation of too much homework. What, just give them all A’s for showing up in class once in a while?

 

[jmcrae]

Or doing homework of any kind on the weekend condemned. I couldn’t believe parents were actually pushing this condemnation of too much homework. What, just give them all A’s for showing up in class once in a while?

They keep piling on the homework, and multiplying the busy-work, but the grades aren’t getting any better.

Maybe if they actually did school work in school, instead of having game days, and music days, and hot dog days, and pizza days, etc., they’d be able to leave the books at school and get a few chores done at home, not to mention, have time to go to Mass on Sundays.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

There’s also another way of looking at this, although not a popular view on this very conservative Forum.

Instead of using the “poorly catechized” catch-all phrase, maybe consider that many people (actually, far more than consider themselves “traditional” or "orthodox (little o) Catholics) actually WERE “properly catechized” in the immediate pre- and post-Vatican II era, which stresses love for God and others and service to one another versus the post-reformation (until Vat II) stance which emphasized the primacy of rules, law and obedience to law under fear of hell.

I was reared in the late 1940;s, early 1950’s, which you here would have to admit guaranteed “proper catechization” according to your standards. However – the change in theological emphasis post VII taught me that as I am adult in all other areas of my life, so too can I act as an adult in my spiritual life. I can seek to know the Church’s position and teaching on various issues, but I’ve also been given intelligence, a conscience and the God-given freedom to use my conscience in the manner in which I conform to those laws.

I, and the millions like me whom you probably label (and libel) as “cafeteria Catholics” – or not even Catholics at all – live in the 21st century, not the 15th. Our eyes have been opened by the movement of the Spirit and a return to Gospel values – unlike the organizational Church which is mired in its monarchical model and quest for power and the expression of that power through ultra-authoritarianism. This happened during JPII’s papal reign and continues today through the reactionary conservatism. We see a completely different (official) Church than you do, and it’s not a pretty picture, nor does it remotely resemble Jesus’ Suffering Servant.

If that Roman model suits most of you, as it certainly appears to, I say, enjoy this cyclical wave you’re riding. Every long-lived institution moves between conservatism and liberalism, and the latter is certainly on the rise as long as conservative Popes continue to appoint their conservative buddies as Cardinals and Bishops, since they are the only decision-making body.

It sounds very condescending to me to assume that contemporary Catholics don’t live to your religious standards because we “weren’t taught correctly.” While that may be true in a small part, it’s certainly not true for every person who lives his/her Catholic faith according to the theological emphasis used in post-VII teaching. It’s ridiculous and false to blame every perceived wrong present in the Church now to inferior teaching and learning. Maybe blame instead the five- or seven-hundred-year gap between Church ideology and the realities of life in this century. I think you’d be closer in your assumption.

BTW, I’m not a “cafeteria Catholic” by any means, but my mind and vision are certainly more open than the general vision here on CAF.

.

I am loyal to the Magisterium, and there is NOTHING in Vatican II to indicate that Catholics are no longer called to obedience.

The TRUTH never, ever changes, nor does it bend to the whims of modernism and relativism. Thank God for that.

 

[puzzleannie]

It’s a term I hear occasionally and I was wondering if it’s use is valid. Do we have alot of Catholics who were improperly catechised, or is it more of a case of large numbers who just choose to reject Catholic teachings. If you believe it’s the former, in what ways do you see people being improperly catechised ?

there is a third option
there are many people who were offered excellent catechesis in Catholic school or parish programs but did not pay attention or respond to the gift, or simply did not want to learn.

 

[ProVobis]

there is a third option
there are many people who were offered excellent catechesis in Catholic school or parish programs but did not pay attention or respond to the gift, or simply did not want to learn.

The question then would be, where is/was the motivation to learn?

 

[Corki]

Are you a supporter of woman priests?

I just checked her past posts and the answer, according to her own words is, yes. ABC and IVF too. I am trying to reconcile that with

BTW, I’m not a “cafeteria Catholic” by any means

.

Not meaning to single the poster out but I think that there are many Catholics who were fairly well instructed but who just don’t buy into the teachings of the Church anymore.

I think poor catechesis is partly to blame. There were a few decades where there was no sense of what should be taught, especially in CCD and Catholic schools. I moved several times and there was absolutely no continuity to the way the faith was taught from place to place.

The bishops have made huge leaps in this area in recent years with thorough scope and sequence documents, reviews of catechetical texts and training. But the catechesis is only as good as its implementation.

But there is plenty of blame to go around. Many of us just didn’t pay attention or have the submissiveness necessary for the teaching to “stick”. Families, for whatever reason, started relying on the CCD programs and the schools to be the primary teachers of the faith and that never works out well.

 

[jmcrae]

The question then would be, where is/was the motivation to learn?

If a person doesn’t have interior motivation, there’s nothing a teacher can do to provide it - threats and rewards can only do so much - and once a kid realizes that he’s being threatened/bribed, these things no longer work.

The student has to want to learn, for reasons of his or her own.

 

[ProVobis]

If a person doesn’t have interior motivation, there’s nothing a teacher can do to provide it - threats and rewards can only do so much - and once a kid realizes that he’s being threatened/bribed, these things no longer work.

The student has to want to learn, for reasons of his or her own.

Well, we got gold stars next to our names for memorizing a few lines of catechism. Wasn’t that cool enough?

 

[quiet52]

I help adults, both Catholic and non-Catholic, prepare for the sacraments of initiation. One Catholic woman with adult children was recently shocked to learn that the Church teaches that contraception is a mortal sin. She said, innocently, “but we were TAUGHT it’s okay.”
By priests and by her parents.

And she has taught her children and her grandchildren what she was taught because she thought she was being faithful.

Teen Confirmation teachers, please know how important your roles are in the formation of future parents.

 

[Phemie]

I help adults, both Catholic and non-Catholic, prepare for the sacraments of initiation. One Catholic woman with adult children was recently shocked to learn that the Church teaches that contraception is a mortal sin. She said, innocently, “but we were TAUGHT it’s okay.”
By priests and by her parents.

And she has taught her children and her grandchildren what she was taught because she thought she was being faithful.

Teen Confirmation teachers, please know how important your roles are in the formation of future parents.

That’s what I was taught, by a priest, in university: “It’s up to your own conscience. If you feel the need to use ABC, then go ahead.”

Birth control, like sex, was never mentioned at home. The one and only time ABC was ever referred to was after I had been married for some time, might even have had all my children, when Dad at some point in a conversation I can’t quite remember, made the statement that he and Mom had never “done anything to avoid pregnancy” yet had only had four pregnancies, one which ended in a miscarriage. His statement stayed with me because I had ‘done something to avoid pregnancy’ and I had done it with a priest’s blessing.

Back in the mid 80s, I had a pastor whose Master’s dissertation was on artificial birth control and his argument was that there was nothing to forbid it. He supported his argument with Church documents back to the early Church fathers.

Another pastor told me that he’d counseled parents who were taking their FASD afflicted teenage daughter for an abortion, “You have to do what’s best for your family.” Needless to say, he wasn’t teaching the evils of ABC in marriage preparation.

Mention NFP around the priests I deal with and you are given a ‘poor deluded woman’ smirk. Their attitude is, “Why bother bringing up something nobody’s interested in hearing and which they won’t listen to anyway?”

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Maybe all these Vatican II ‘scholars’ can provide us with the exact text in that document that says we are no longer required to believe or obey the teachings of the Magisterium.

Oh, and why would the Magisterium publish anything that says, “Folks, you no longer have to believe or obey us.”

Then why should we believe a document that says we no longer have to believe?

 

[jmcrae]

That’s what I was taught, by a priest, in university: “It’s up to your own conscience. If you feel the need to use ABC, then go ahead.”

Birth control, like sex, was never mentioned at home. The one and only time ABC was ever referred to was after I had been married for some time, might even have had all my children, when Dad at some point in a conversation I can’t quite remember, made the statement that he and Mom had never “done anything to avoid pregnancy” yet had only had four pregnancies, one which ended in a miscarriage. His statement stayed with me because I had ‘done something to avoid pregnancy’ and I had done it with a priest’s blessing.

Back in the mid 80s, I had a pastor whose Master’s dissertation was on artificial birth control and his argument was that there was nothing to forbid it. He supported his argument with Church documents back to the early Church fathers.

Another pastor told me that he’d counseled parents who were taking their FASD afflicted teenage daughter for an abortion, “You have to do what’s best for your family.” Needless to say, he wasn’t teaching the evils of ABC in marriage preparation.

Mention NFP around the priests I deal with and you are given a ‘poor deluded woman’ smirk. Their attitude is, “Why bother bringing up something nobody’s interested in hearing and which they won’t listen to anyway?”

Wow.

In a way, I was probably lucky to have been raised Protestant, because, even though I was also taught that birth control is what responsible people do, it was always qualified with - “not like those poor Catholics” - so I was aware right from the start that the Catholic Church’s official position was against the use of birth control. Of course, the Catholic families who lived on my street were faithful to the teaching, as well - they had lots of kids. My Mom was always saying, “Oh, poor Mrs. - is pregnant again!” Of course Mrs. - didn’t think she was poor - she always looked happy, to me.

 

[Denise1957]

I, and the millions like me whom you probably label (and libel) as “cafeteria Catholics” – or not even Catholics at all – live in the 21st century, not the 15th. Our eyes have been opened by the movement of the Spirit and a return to Gospel values – unlike the organizational Church which is mired in its monarchical model and quest for power and the expression of that power through ultra-authoritarianism. This happened during JPII’s papal reign and continues today through the reactionary conservatism. We see a completely different (official) Church than you do, and it’s not a pretty picture, nor does it remotely resemble Jesus’ Suffering Servant.

If that Roman model suits most of you, as it certainly appears to, I say, enjoy this cyclical wave you’re riding. Every long-lived institution moves between conservatism and liberalism, and the latter is certainly on the rise as long as conservative Popes continue to appoint their conservative buddies as Cardinals and Bishops, since they are the only decision-making body.

.

I don’t think its really accurate to look to the popes, or bishops, as being conservative. To do this is to look upon the Church as an institution - which it isn’t. To see the Church as a political entity is also not accurate, because then we begin to label or judge Church teaching according to prevalent political and social norms. Church teachings cannot change, though certain matters of discipline can, of course.

Some Catholics will devote their entire lives to the effort of changing Church teaching - such as women’s ordination (which will never happen), or the acceptance of homosexual marriage, or artificial contraception, but they will be wasting their lives on such an endeavor. The Church takes into account everything in sacred scripture and tradition; it does not pull out that part of scripture or tradition which suits a particular social or political point of view.

I understand that it may seem, from a certain point of view, that the Church is on a quest, as you said, for power through ultra-authoritarianism. But it was Our Lord Himself who gave the keys to Peter, and told Peter and the Disciples to go out and teach all nations, and to baptize. It is only the visible magisterium of the Catholic Church, complete with some flawed human beings, that is the only lawful authority on earth that is given by God to pass on the teachings of Our Lord.

 

[Cristiano]

It’s a term I hear occasionally and I was wondering if it’s use is valid. Do we have alot of Catholics who were improperly catechised, or is it more of a case of large numbers who just choose to reject Catholic teachings. If you believe it’s the former, in what ways do you see people being improperly catechised ?

I went to catechism until confirmation and communion and that was it. I received Confirmation and First Communion at the age of seven. Because of that I moved away from the Church. Later in my life moved back to the Church got married had a son and realized that some of the catechists were more ignorant than I was. I started to study a lot and I decided that it was a sin to let children go without really understanding with being a Catholic is about. That is when I chose to be a catechist and not I teach pre-confirmation classes for the first year of high school. I think that lack of catechetical instruction is not the reason why people reject Catholic teaching. The problem is in the fact that in today society we do not train people into the habit of virtues. Virtues are not of gifts the Holy Spirit (even if they correspond to the gifts), they are something that grows stronger with practice.

 

[Barbkw]

Fr. Mitch and his guest Dr. Del Hahn talked about Humanae Vitae and the brewhaha that happened prior to and after the encyclicals release:

Some Catholic priests and Catholic theologians very publically objected to the Pope’s encyclical on Humanae Vitae even prior to its release.

youtube.com/user/EWTN#p/u/17/xAIv0Rr9WYw

Once the encyclical came out, these supporters of ABC, then said that the Pope was not speaking with the authority of the Magisterium and therefore ABC was to be left up to each person’s conscience

ewtn.com/library/Theology/AUTHUMVT.HTM

THE AUTHORITY OF THE ENCYCLICAL HUMANAE VITAE

 

[Robert_Burns]

It’s a term I hear occasionally and I was wondering if it’s use is valid. Do we have alot of Catholics who were improperly catechised, or is it more of a case of large numbers who just choose to reject Catholic teachings. If you believe it’s the former, in what ways do you see people being improperly catechised ?

In Dogmatic Theology there is no room for cafeteriaism. I think that some want to use the Excuse that they are invincibly ignorant or try to put a spin on what the Church has always taught as revealed Dogma - but in the final analysis - there is no room for compromise when it comes to Dogma. Each Catholic is morally bound to hold to Dogma at all times.

 

[JHow]

They keep piling on the homework, and multiplying the busy-work, but the grades aren’t getting any better…

Good point. The quality of the homework can be a problem. “Make a Rosary Book… color it neatly with crayons…”

 

[ProVobis]

Once the encyclical came out, these supporters of ABC, then said that the Pope was not speaking with the authority of the Magisterium and therefore ABC was to be left up to each person’s conscience

The basis for that thinking was in a previous encyclical Progressio Populorum (section 37)

“Finally, it is for parents to take a thorough look at the matter and decide upon the number of their children. This is an obligation they take upon themselves, before their children already born, and before the community to which they belong—following the dictates of their own consciences informed by God’s law authentically interpreted, and bolstered by their trust in Him. (39)”

Of course, this was misinterpreted but by the time H.V. came out to clarify the statement, ABC became almost an ingrained “permission.”