Improving the NO

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Mickey_Jackson

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I here humbly offer four suggestions for a “reform of the reform” of the Roman Liturgy, to use the words of Pope Benedict:
  1. Reinstate the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar at the beginning of Mass and the Concluding prayer (“May be performance of my services…”) at the end.
  2. Eliminate the options found in the Roman Missal: have one penitential rite, one Preface, and one Eucharistic prayer (specifically, make mandatory what is now the Eucharistic Prayer I, aka the Roman Canon).
  3. Require that every Mass be said ad orientum
  4. Form a commission chaired by Cardinal Arinze to devise and implement a plan to, over the next few years, reinstate the regular use of Latin, with the goal of eventually requiring the Ordinary of every Sunday Mass to be said completely in Latin (with the Propers still in the vernacular).
Anyone else have a suggestion? Maybe we can send them to the Pope 👍
 
Mickey_Jackson said:
I here humbly offer four suggestions for a “reform of the reform” of the Roman Liturgy, to use the words of Pope Benedict:
  1. Reinstate the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar at the beginning of Mass and the Concluding prayer (“May be performance of my services…”) at the end.
  2. Eliminate the options found in the Roman Missal: have one penitential rite, one Preface, and one Eucharistic prayer (specifically, make mandatory what is now the Eucharistic Prayer I, aka the Roman Canon).
  3. Require that every Mass be said ad orientum
  4. Form a commission chaired by Cardinal Arinze to devise and implement a plan to, over the next few years, reinstate the regular use of Latin, with the goal of eventually requiring the Ordinary of every Sunday Mass to be said completely in Latin (with the Propers still in the vernacular).
Click to expand...
Why do you think these should be done - especially 3 & 4?
 
Sounds like a plan to destroy the Catholic Church in the US within 2 generations.
 
Mickey_Jackson said:
I here humbly offer four suggestions for a “reform of the reform” of the Roman Liturgy, to use the words of Pope Benedict:
  1. Reinstate the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar at the beginning of Mass and the Concluding prayer (“May be performance of my services…”) at the end.
  2. Eliminate the options found in the Roman Missal: have one penitential rite, one Preface, and one Eucharistic prayer (specifically, make mandatory what is now the Eucharistic Prayer I, aka the Roman Canon).
  3. Require that every Mass be said ad orientum
  4. Form a commission chaired by Cardinal Arinze to devise and implement a plan to, over the next few years, reinstate the regular use of Latin, with the goal of eventually requiring the Ordinary of every Sunday Mass to be said completely in Latin (with the Propers still in the vernacular).
Anyone else have a suggestion? Maybe we can send them to the Pope 👍
Click to expand...
Don’t hold your breath. A lot of big wigs are still upset that they have to correctly translate the Latin Missal into english.
 
Eliminate the options found in the Roman Missal: have one penitential rite, one Preface,

The Latin Rite, even in the TLM, has always had variable prefaces.

In fact, the Roman Rite was unique in Western Liturgy in that the Preface was the only part of the Anaphora that would vary.
 
Yeah; I agree with bpbasilphx: having a fixed Preface would be a diminishment.
 
Mickey_Jackson said:
I here humbly offer four suggestions for a “reform of the reform” of the Roman Liturgy, to use the words of Pope Benedict:
  1. Reinstate the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar at the beginning of Mass and the Concluding prayer (“May be performance of my services…”) at the end.
  2. Eliminate the options found in the Roman Missal: have one penitential rite, one Preface, and one Eucharistic prayer (specifically, make mandatory what is now the Eucharistic Prayer I, aka the Roman Canon).
  3. Require that every Mass be said ad orientum
  4. Form a commission chaired by Cardinal Arinze to devise and implement a plan to, over the next few years, reinstate the regular use of Latin, with the goal of eventually requiring the Ordinary of every Sunday Mass to be said completely in Latin (with the Propers still in the vernacular).
Anyone else have a suggestion? Maybe we can send them to the Pope 👍
Click to expand...
These suggested reforms go roughly in the right direction, except, as has been noted, multiple prefaces were never the problem. *.

I suspect that if something this drastic is not done, the novus ordo will wither away for lack of priests, even if it isn’t abrogated.*
 
Here is what I think would improve the N.O:
  1. Prayers at the foot of the altar
  2. Mass said ad orientem - this would remind us all that the Priest is leading us in prayer. This makes the Mass feel less like a meal between friends and allows us to concentrate more on the passion because we have less distractions.
  3. Mass said in Latin, with the vernacular where appropriate.
  4. Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in every Mass.
  5. Communion should be received on the tongue, kneeling at an altar rail while the deacon holds a paten under the chin of each communicant. This would increase the respect shown to the Eucharist.
Other than those 4 suggestions, I like the N.O as it stands. The increased use of scripture is great and I like the fact that there is a better calendar.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Here is what I think would improve the N.O:
  1. Prayers at the foot of the altar
  2. Mass said ad orientem - this would remind us all that the Priest is leading us in prayer. This makes the Mass feel less like a meal between friends and allows us to concentrate more on the passion because we have less distractions.
  3. Mass said in Latin, with the vernacular where appropriate.
  4. Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in every Mass.
  5. Communion should be received on the tongue, kneeling at an altar rail while the deacon holds a paten under the chin of each communicant. This would increase the respect shown to the Eucharist.
Other than those 4 suggestions, I like the N.O as it stands. The increased use of scripture is great and I like the fact that there is a better calendar.
Click to expand...
For what it’s worth, Bishop Fellay has heard that HH is privately considering reforms like bringing back the old offertory prayers ad libitum, and suppressing canon 2 and the rarely used ep 4.

In terms of personal preference, I do think Benedict XVI is more fond of the old rite than any other conciliar pope, and might like their richness in the “OF.” There probably is however a difference between his velleities and what he is prepared to impose.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Here is what I think would improve the N.O:
  1. Prayers at the foot of the altar
  2. Mass said ad orientem - this would remind us all that the Priest is leading us in prayer. This makes the Mass feel less like a meal between friends and allows us to concentrate more on the passion because we have less distractions.
  3. Mass said in Latin, with the vernacular where appropriate.
  4. Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in every Mass.
  5. Communion should be received on the tongue, kneeling at an altar rail while the deacon holds a paten under the chin of each communicant. This would increase the respect shown to the Eucharist.
Other than those 4 suggestions, I like the N.O as it stands. The increased use of scripture is great and I like the fact that there is a better calendar.
Click to expand...
Sounds like my parish. 😛
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Here is what I think would improve the N.O:
  1. Prayers at the foot of the altar
  2. Mass said ad orientem - this would remind us all that the Priest is leading us in prayer. This makes the Mass feel less like a meal between friends and allows us to concentrate more on the passion because we have less distractions.
  3. Mass said in Latin, with the vernacular where appropriate.
  4. Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in every Mass.
  5. Communion should be received on the tongue, kneeling at an altar rail while the deacon holds a paten under the chin of each communicant. This would increase the respect shown to the Eucharist.
Other than those 4 suggestions, I like the N.O as it stands. The increased use of scripture is great and I like the fact that there is a better calendar.
Click to expand...
Sounds like my parish. 😛

Seriously, why is this thread here other than being another “bash the Ordinary Form Mass” thread. :mad:

Maybe a “Improving the Extraordinary Form Mass” thread is needed, or is that even allowed. :rolleyes:
 
WanderAimlessly said:
Sounds like my parish. 😛

Seriously, why is this thread here other than being another “bash the Ordinary Form Mass” thread. :mad:
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Was the Ordinary form of the mass “bashing” the Traditional mass when it “improved” the Roman rite?
Maybe a “Improving the Extraordinary Form Mass” thread is needed, or is that even allowed. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
That was already tried 40 years ago.
 
I will probably get banned for this, but here it goes.

There seems to be almost an elitist bigotry with those who prefer the Extraordinary Form of the Mass to the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

It seems that the most fervent of those who think the Ordinary Form of the Mass is inferior and thus Christ is less present in the Mass. I not only get this impression from here, but from people I have spoken to in person.

Christ is present fully in both forms of the Mass.

Saying that. Yes, the Ordinary Form of the Mass can be improved, but I think the Extraordinary Form of the Mass can be improved too. I will get back to you on the EF Mass on another thread.
 
Mickey_Jackson said:
I here humbly offer four suggestions for a “reform of the reform” of the Roman Liturgy, to use the words of Pope Benedict:
  1. Reinstate the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar at the beginning of Mass and the Concluding prayer (“May be performance of my services…”) at the end.
  2. Eliminate the options found in the Roman Missal: have one penitential rite, one Preface, and one Eucharistic prayer (specifically, make mandatory what is now the Eucharistic Prayer I, aka the Roman Canon).
  3. Require that every Mass be said ad orientum
  4. Form a commission chaired by Cardinal Arinze to devise and implement a plan to, over the next few years, reinstate the regular use of Latin, with the goal of eventually requiring the Ordinary of every Sunday Mass to be said completely in Latin (with the Propers still in the vernacular).
Anyone else have a suggestion? Maybe we can send them to the Pope 👍
Click to expand...
You cheated!. You didn’t come up with this yourself. You’ve been reading the documents of Vatican II, haven’t you? 😃

Except for the Preface thing this is pretty much what the Council called for, isn’t it?

James
 
WanderAimlessly said:
There seems to be almost an elitist bigotry with those who prefer the Extraordinary Form of the Mass to the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
Click to expand...
If fitting us in that nice little sterotype works for you.

I could easily turn around and say the same of many hardcore supporters of the Pauline mass. They brush us off as archaic and old, wanting the “good ol” days - except that I am only 19.
It seems that the most fervent of those who think the Ordinary Form of the Mass is inferior and thus Christ is less present in the Mass. I not only get this impression from here, but from people I have spoken to in person.
Click to expand...
Again, this can easily be turned around. I could easily argue that many Anti-EF’ers feel that there is less “participation” by the laity and that means that “Christ is less present” or the mass is “inferior”.
Christ is present fully in both forms of the Mass.
Click to expand...
Those of us who make the long trip out to a validly celebrated EF will agree with you.
Saying that. Yes, the Ordinary Form of the Mass can be improved, but I think the Extraordinary Form of the Mass can be improved too. I will get back to you on the EF Mass on another thread.
Click to expand...
Yes, throw away the traditions of our ancestors. They’ve developed this mass over the last 1500 years - but take no heed of that, we know better. Let’s throw-out the slow organic changes that took centuries to blossom and make the mass more applicable to today. :rolleyes:
 
WanderAimlessly said:
I will probably get banned for this, but here it goes.

There seems to be almost an elitist bigotry with those who prefer the Extraordinary Form of the Mass to the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

It seems that the most fervent of those who think the Ordinary Form of the Mass is inferior and thus Christ is less present in the Mass. I not only get this impression from here, but from people I have spoken to in person.

Christ is present fully in both forms of the Mass.

Saying that. Yes, the Ordinary Form of the Mass can be improved, but I think the Extraordinary Form of the Mass can be improved too. I will get back to you on the EF Mass on another thread.
Click to expand...
You’re not going to get banned for this. First, relatively few people here say anything even apraching the belief that Christ is less present in the OF than in the EF.

And, form my perspective it is the opposite that is true.
There is a real hatred of the EF here. There can’t be a single thread on it without someone (such as yourself) suggesting it be changed to conform to the OF - like using the new Lectionary or translating it into English (when we have the past 40 years as proof that those in charge of doing this were quite incompetent.)

I have to say that I see some hypocrisy in your post. You complain when someone suggests changing the OF. But, you have done the same thing yourself in suggesting changes to the EF in another thread.

James
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Other than those 4 suggestions, I like the N.O as it stands. The increased use of scripture is great and I like the fact that there is a better calendar.
Click to expand...
It seems as if there is actually more Scripture used in a typical EF Mass than a typical OF Mass. But, there is certainly a lot more variety in of Scripture in the OF. That is nice.

But, I am really curious, why do you think the calendar is better in the OF?

James
 
James0235 said:
You’re not going to get banned for this. First, relatively few people here say anything even apraching the belief that Christ is less present in the OF than in the EF.

And, form my perspective it is the opposite that is true.
There is a real hatred of the EF here. There can’t be a single thread on it without someone (such as yourself) suggesting it be changed to conform to the OF - like using the new Lectionary or translating it into English (when we have the past 40 years as proof that those in charge of doing this were quite incompetent.)

I have to say that I see some hypocrisy in your post. You complain when someone suggests changing the OF. But, you have done the same thing yourself in suggesting changes to the EF in another thread.

James
Click to expand...
Thanks for proving my point. At least I admit to the validity and necessity of the EF Mass and that the OF Mass can be improved.
 
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