In 1835 Mormons taught that Father was a spirit

[Catholic20064]

The Lectures on Faith was part of the original Doctrine and Covenants. In its chapter on the Godhead the lectures taught the Father was a spirit:

[Lec 5:2c] They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.

[Lec 5:2d] The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image.

[Lec 5:2e] He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him;

[Lec 5:2f] and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name;

This was taught after Joseph supposedly had had a vision in which the Father had a physical body. It is more evidence that Mormon doctrine on the Godhead evolved over time and that Joseph had to re-invent the church’s doctrine by adding a Father with a body in his 1839 description of the Godhead. Joseph wrote confusing and contradictory things about his own supposed first vision. Note that in the Lectures on Faith Joseph contrasts the Father as a personage of Spirit and Jesus as a personage of tabernacle.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The Lectures on Faith was part of the original Doctrine and Covenants. In its chapter on the Godhead the lectures taught the Father was a spirit:

[Lec 5:2c] They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.

[Lec 5:2d] The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image.

[Lec 5:2e] He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him;

[Lec 5:2f] and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name;

This was taught after Joseph supposedly had had a vision in which the Father had a physical body. It is more evidence that Mormon doctrine on the Godhead evolved over time and that Joseph had to re-invent the church’s doctrine by adding a Father with a body in his 1839 description of the Godhead. Joseph wrote confusing and contradictory things about his own supposed first vision. Note that in the Lectures on Faith Joseph contrasts the Father as a personage of Spirit and Jesus as a personage of tabernacle.

You have cited one of many contradictions within Mormonism.

Joseph Smith did claim that God is an “exalted Man”:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.” (JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

JS also claimed God is not eternal:

“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.” (JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

JS gave this view of eternal life. Do you know if “exaltation to exaltation” refers to reincarnation/transmigration of the soul?

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . " (JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

Mormon Prophet, Brighan Young, claimed Adam is God. The following is from April 9, 1852:

""Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. . . .

. . He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. . .

. . .What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

. . .Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.

. . .Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing." (Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1:50-51.)

On June 8, 1873, President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, another speech claiming Adam is God.

"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth.

Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith." (The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873.)
(© THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH | J. Willard Marriott Library 295 S 1500 E SLC, UT 84112-0860)

LDS Journal of Discourses it is online at journalofdiscourses.org/volume-01/.

The Desert News can also be found online.

Emphasis throughout is mine.

Anna

 

[Janet1983]

The Lectures on Faith was part of the original Doctrine and Covenants. In its chapter on the Godhead the lectures taught the Father was a spirit:

This was taught after Joseph supposedly had had a vision in which the Father had a physical body. It is more evidence that Mormon doctrine on the Godhead evolved over time and that Joseph had to re-invent the church’s doctrine by adding a Father with a body in his 1839 description of the Godhead. Joseph wrote confusing and contradictory things about his own supposed first vision. Note that in the Lectures on Faith Joseph contrasts the Father as a personage of Spirit and Jesus as a personage of tabernacle.

For whatever reason I couldn’t find these quotes in D&C form 1835… I guess had I looked longer I might have found it…
But I found it in D&C 1891 (go to page 54) that is in Google books and can be read there…
And I found it here… So it definitely is documented…

Edit:
D&C 1854 (page 45)
D&C 1879 (page 54)

For comparison, try and find it in the 1920s edition… it looks way different…

 

[Anna_Scott]

For whatever reason I couldn’t find these quotes in D&C form 1835… I guess had I looked longer I might have found it…
But I found it in D&C 1891 (go to page 54) that is in Google books and can be read there…
And I found it here… So it definitely is documented…

Janet:

Do you know what the Mormon Church is teaching now about God?

Anna

 

[Janet1983]

Janet:

Do you know what the Mormon Church is teaching now about God?

Anna

They teach that their god was once a man who lived a good live according to mormon doctrine and became a god afterwards… He’s got (of course) a wife with whom he produces spirit babies (Jesus was the first) and sends them to earth to have a human body… etc. etc.

J.S. also preached that there are 3 gods (proof here)

 

[Catholic20064]

For whatever reason I couldn’t find these quotes in D&C form 1835… I guess had I looked longer I might have found it…
But I found it in D&C 1891 (go to page 54) that is in Google books and can be read there…
And I found it here… So it definitely is documented…

Edit:
D&C 1854 (page 45)
D&C 1879 (page 54)

For comparison, try and find it in the 1920s edition… it looks way different…

The Lectures of Faith was inserted into the D&C by Joseph Smith. It was removed by the LDS in the late 1800s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith

 

[Anna_Scott]

They teach that their god was once a man who lived a good live according to mormon doctrine and became a god afterwards… He’s got (of course) a wife with whom he produces spirit babies (Jesus was the first) and sends them to earth to have a human body… etc. etc.

J.S. also preached that there are 3 gods (proof here)

So, things haven’t really changed.

Though I have seen LDS forum members deny the LDS Church ever taught that Adam is God, even through Brigham Young taught this doctrine his entire life as the 2nd Mormon Prophet and President.

Anna

 

[Janet1983]

So, things haven’t really changed.

Though I have seen LDS forum members deny the LDS Church ever taught that Adam is God, even through Brigham Young taught this doctrine his entire life as the 2nd Mormon Prophet and President.

Anna

Well as far as I know Adam being God is not part of modern rituals… the “creation story” that is being displayed has Elohim speak (let us make…) and orders Jehovah to do so… Jehovah repeats Elohim’s order to Michael and the two go down and fulfill their order… Afterwards they come back and Elohim proclaims it good… This is repeated until the creation of man… Michael is being brainwashed and his memory erased and he is being placed in the garden as “Adam”…

 

[jake23]

You might be interested in watching the DVD’s or on youtube ‘the bible vs. the book of mormon’ and also the book of mormon vs. dna’ yes there stories change. One must keep lying to cover up the first lie!

 

[why_me]

For whatever reason I couldn’t find these quotes in D&C form 1835… I guess had I looked longer I might have found it…
But I found it in D&C 1891 (go to page 54) that is in Google books and can be read there…
And I found it here… So it definitely is documented…

Edit:
D&C 1854 (page 45)
D&C 1879 (page 54)

For comparison, try and find it in the 1920s edition… it looks way different…

You are looking at the Doctrine and Covenants of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints which is not the lds church. The reorganized church has more revelations in their D and C by their leaders.

 

[why_me]

You might be interested in watching the DVD’s or on youtube ‘the bible vs. the book of mormon’ and also the book of mormon vs. dna’ yes there stories change. One must keep lying to cover up the first lie!

Both dvds are sponsored by known mormon haters. They spend their lives attempting to destroy the lds church. However, the mormons have an answer to both dvds. You can find it here:

fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html

google.com/cse?cx=006480910542272568972%3Adjiv3kx8zqo&ie=UTF-8&q=the+book+of+mormon+and+dna&sa.x=3&sa.y=11

It would be like me going to known catholic haters to find information about the catholic church. The makers of the antimormon video are born again christians.

 

[why_me]

So, things haven’t really changed.

Though I have seen LDS forum members deny the LDS Church ever taught that Adam is God, even through Brigham Young taught this doctrine his entire life as the 2nd Mormon Prophet and President.

Anna

Not everyone knows everything. It may happen that they don’t know. But the discourses are published by the lds church and many mormons have them in their home libraries. But some may not read them. But nothing is secret since all can be found published by the lds church.

 

[why_me]

The Lectures on Faith was part of the original Doctrine and Covenants. In its chapter on the Godhead the lectures taught the Father was a spirit:

This was taught after Joseph supposedly had had a vision in which the Father had a physical body. It is more evidence that Mormon doctrine on the Godhead evolved over time and that Joseph had to re-invent the church’s doctrine by adding a Father with a body in his 1839 description of the Godhead. Joseph wrote confusing and contradictory things about his own supposed first vision. Note that in the Lectures on Faith Joseph contrasts the Father as a personage of Spirit and Jesus as a personage of tabernacle.

I don’t think that we have our physical bodies in heaven. But we do have our spirit bodies. However, the lectures of faith do not contradict that god was once a man. And so, at this moment, the father has a spirit body as does christ. Christ came to earth and gained his physical body. But now…? I believe that he has his spirit body.

 

[TheosisM]

I don’t think that we have our physical bodies in heaven. But we do have our spirit bodies. However, the lectures of faith do not contradict that god was once a man. And so, at this moment, the father has a spirit body as does christ. Christ came to earth and gained his physical body. But now…? I believe that he has his spirit body.

From what I am aware of, Mormons would disagree with you. Both Mormons and Catholics believe in a bodily resurrection of the dead. Both Mormons and Catholics believe that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended to Heaven. Jesus did not just bodily ascend to Heaven then lose that body.

The Mormon doctrine is that the Father has a physical, glorified, body of flesh and bones, just like Jesus Christ does.

 

[PaulDupre]

why me:

I don’t think that we have our physical bodies in heaven. But we do have our spirit bodies. However, the lectures of faith do not contradict that god was once a man. And so, at this moment, the father has a spirit body as does christ. Christ came to earth and gained his physical body. But now…? I believe that he has his spirit body.

So you are an apostate from both Mormonism and Catholicism.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Not everyone knows everything. It may happen that they don’t know. But the discourses are published by the lds church and many mormons have them in their home libraries. But some may not read them. But nothing is secret since all can be found published by the lds church.

Why me:

I would not expect everyone to know everything. And I know you can find the info online.

Before my brief membership in the LDS Church; I received lessons at the Mormon Bishop’s home, with the Bishop and 2 missionaries. The Bishop knew these things. The lessons the Bishop and missionaries presented to me were carefully and skillfully given to exclude the controversial issues.

Anna

 

[PaulDupre]

The Lectures on Faith was part of the original Doctrine and Covenants. In its chapter on the Godhead the lectures taught the Father was a spirit:

This was taught after Joseph supposedly had had a vision in which the Father had a physical body. It is more evidence that Mormon doctrine on the Godhead evolved over time and that Joseph had to re-invent the church’s doctrine by adding a Father with a body in his 1839 description of the Godhead. Joseph wrote confusing and contradictory things about his own supposed first vision. Note that in the Lectures on Faith Joseph contrasts the Father as a personage of Spirit and Jesus as a personage of tabernacle.

It also shows that Joseph’s accounts of the First Vision evolved over time, changing to conform to Joseph’s changing view of God.

The Lectures on Faith were included in the Doctrine and Covenants from 1835 through 1921. In Section 5 of the LoF, starting on page 52 of the 1835 D&C, it says:

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth or in the immensity of space - They are The Father and The Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power, possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and his image; - he is also the express likeness and image of the personage of The Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father, being begotten of Him…

In the footnotes, it says:

Q: How many personages are there in the Godhead?

A: Two: the Father and the Son.

It further says that the Holy Spirit is the shared mind of the Father and the Son, The LDS church removed the LoF from the D&C after 1921. Most LDS these days have never heard of the LoF and have no idea what they taught. It was only much later that the LDS taught that God the Father had a body of flesh and bones and that the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) was another spirit child of the heavenly father and one his wives.

How could Joseph Smith, who claimed to speak directly with God and to have been taught for many hours by angels, have taught a nature of God so diametrically opposed to what he later taught? It sounds like he was making it up as he went along.

 

[why_me]

Why me:

I would not expect everyone to know everything. And I know you can find the info online.

Before my brief membership in the LDS Church; I received lessons at the Mormon Bishop’s home, with the Bishop and 2 missionaries. The Bishop knew these things. The lessons the Bishop and missionaries presented to me were carefully and skillfully given to exclude the controversial issues.

Anna

I think that in this issue you are being unreasonable. How is the bishop or missionaries to know what are the controversial issues? First I showed you where the adam god theory was denounced in 1976 by the then leader of the lds church spencer w. kimball during the general conference. Should the missionaries or your bishop friend told you that? It would be like me investigating the catholic faith and being confirmed into the faith and then I read what some whacky pope said in 1145 and leave the catholic church because the RCIA class did not tell me that whacky quotation.

These issues you mentioned are not only online but they are in mormon books. For example, the encylopedia of mormonism has the whacky issues in it and this has been published with the help of the lds church by MacMillian. I can read about adam god, adam as Michael and I can even read about the antimormon literature that claims that sidney rigdon wrote the book of mormon using the spaulding manucript. It is all in the encylopedia of mormonism and yes, that is online too. The journal of discourses are also published by the lds church and they have been sold in the lds bookstores. Maybe the missionaries should have given you those books to read. Most mormons have no problem with them at all. The truth claim of the mormons rests with the book of mormon. Nothing more and nothing less. If that book is true, it matters not what brigham young said. It is all down to the book of mormon. And the same anti theories about it were around at the Joseph Smith time and the mormon faith was not phased at all.

And so, what is secret?

 

[why_me]

It also shows that Joseph’s accounts of the First Vision evolved over time, changing to conform to Joseph’s changing view of God.

This is not true at all. Joseph told his accounts to different audiences. The first account was more or less for the protestant crowd. But by 1838, he knew that he needed a definitive account because of the confusion. He admitted this himself. People heard his accounts and were not phased by them. The 1832 account and the 1835 account in particular.

And by the way, a fraudster usually has his or her story tighter than screwed on lid. For Joseph it wasn’t the vision that was important. It was the work he had to do which engrossed him.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/The_First_Vision.pdf

Your spin paul is quite something. Unfortunately, you need to do some reading. I enclose the above link to help you along.

 

[why_me]

From what I am aware of, Mormons would disagree with you. Both Mormons and Catholics believe in a bodily resurrection of the dead. Both Mormons and Catholics believe that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended to Heaven. Jesus did not just bodily ascend to Heaven then lose that body.

The Mormon doctrine is that the Father has a physical, glorified, body of flesh and bones, just like Jesus Christ does.

Please read this. It also addresses Paul’s claims. You see, all this has been around for quite some time. Paul gets his information from antimormons. He just doesn’t think all this up himself.

en.fairmormon.org/Lecture_5_teaches_the_Father_is_%22a_personage_of_spirit%22

The question of spirit and physical bodies are addressed in the above link.

First Cor. 15:44 explains more.