In a pluralistic society of different beliefs, does the Christian have the right to impose their religious beliefs on those who do not believe?

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Bradskii said:
I’m not going to let you change the question around. Which is, if the US is solidly Christian, why does it do so badly compared to more secular countries?
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It was my original question to YOU, sir. One last time, or else you tacitly admit that you cannot:
Can you please show me a country that isn’t based on Judeo-Christian concepts of law that is better in all the categories you mentioned than the U.S?
 
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“nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed.”
The “progressives” and other groups routinely stamp on this in the executive (when they have control), the legislative, and judiciary.
There is nothing new under the sun, history shows how their propaganda (playing at heartstrings honey speech rhetoric and actions, that they promised to do one hundred years ago in every facet of society in the industrialized West) results in what we have today. (Bishop Fulton J. Sheen and others like Paul vi gave clear indications that this even entered the Church.)
And it happened so slowly, and things like lack of prudence but retaining courage
and steadfastness led to much hypocrisy giving them ammunition for their propaganda,
so many do not know the immense ‘strong delusion’ we are under.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” - John Adams
Hopefully there are enough praying and taking action allowed by the provisions granted
by The Grace of God in provisions given to ‘We The People.’ Otherwise the trampling
of the non-believers will increase their chaos of moral relativism against the natural law
taking sides on any issue that will give them popular support to further their agenda.
May God wake up enough people from their slumber.
 
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So true. The gradual takeover of the last 40 years distracted and even sapped the spirits of some people. The media, including the internet, gradually advanced the ‘progressive’ agenda. One hour in Church and then people go home and tune in to ‘the strong delusion.’ Turn it off. Know what is going on but don’t be a relativist. Don’t participate in doing wrong. Pray and speak up for what is right and good.
 
Bradskii said:
I’m not going to let you change the question around. Which is, if the US is solidly Christian, why does it do so badly compared to more secular countries?

And as an addendum, as you keep bringing it up, why is there nothing in western society that demands that people obey any precepts of Christianity?
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I thought he said it was historically based on judeo christian values, which is different than saying it’s solidly christian now. Our generation has inherited the laws created by these historical generations of Christians.

Perhaps this shift away from Christianity is the explanation.
 
The following touches upon part of this discussion…
May 10

“A notion of freedom which…gives no place to solidarity … ends up by becoming the freedom of ‘the strong’ against the weak” –The Gospel of Life, 19.
Reflection: Cardinal Meisner of Germany compared the slaughter of tens of millions of unborn children by abortion to the genocide campaigns conducted by Hitler and Stalin. Whenever a government removes equal protection from some human beings, it is an insult to all human beings. The class of victims may change, but the evil is the same.
Prayer: Deliver us from evil, O Lord. Preserve world governments from corruption and make them havens for human rights. Amen.
_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_
Source: http://www.priestsforlife.org/pro-life-reflections/
*note: above link gives different daily Pro-Life reflection/prayer
 
One of the most sad things about this really strikes the heart.
The majority of the people either complicit or complacent
in these things - even in The Church are not even aware
of the source of this populist agenda. Many think they
are doing something good. It was a gradual seduction
of many of the intellectual elite at first. There is no orchestrated
conspiracy to point at. The ideology, painted with more
palatable terms like ‘progressivism,’ grabbed so many’s imagination.
The Light shines in the darkness, but it’s so sad that to many
this sounds like balderdash even when quite sane Church leaders
have taught on these things.
Peace.
 
I have seen that the establishment of various groups occurred in the late 1960s. They were unified in two goals: destroy the family and introduce bad ideas while inside the Church and start bad catechesis. In the 1970s, there was the appearance of adult bookstores selling graphic porn when just a few years earlier, the worst you could legally buy was Playboy. Strip clubs and topless bars appeared. Who paid for all that and profited from all that? Whoever it was knew that porn addiction would follow. The Women’s Liberation Movement occurred in the 1970s. Abortion was legalized in 1973. The destruction of the family was the goal. No-Fault Divorce in the 1980s? That was invented out of thin air. Again, let’s make it easy by allowing either party to deny wrongdoing. I’m not referring to abuse.

The 1990s and casual sex? Really? Contraception instead of personal responsibility. Why bother getting married? Now we have the hook-up culture. And the CDC is telling us the country has an STD epidemic?

No, not “everybody is doing it,” but turn on your TV and watch it all played out in front of you. Actors portraying cohabitation, fornication and other perverse behaviors as good, normal or average. Coincidence? NO. And the National Organization for Women - what are they up to? Go to now.org
 
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edwest211 said:
I have seen that the establishment of various groups occurred in the late 1960s. They were unified in two goals: destroy the family and introduce bad ideas while inside the Church and start bad catechesis. In the 1970s, there was the appearance of adult bookstores selling graphic porn when just a few years earlier, the worst you could legally buy was Playboy. Strip clubs and topless bars appeared. Who paid for all that and profited from all that? Whoever it was knew that porn addiction would follow. The Women’s Liberation Movement occurred in the 1970s. Abortion was legalized in 1973. The destruction of the family was the goal. No-Fault Divorce in the 1980s? That was invented out of thin air. Again, let’s make it easy by allowing either party to deny wrongdoing. I’m not referring to abuse.

The 1990s and casual sex? Really? Contraception instead of personal responsibility. Why bother getting married? Now we have the hook-up culture. And the CDC is telling us the country has an STD epidemic?

No, not “everybody is doing it,” but turn on your TV and watch it all played out in front of you. Actors portraying cohabitation, fornication and other perverse behaviors as good, normal or average. Coincidence? NO. And the National Organization for Women - what are they up to? Go to now.org
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None of this is surprising to me…in a secular system. In such a system it is inevitable that everybody gets to express themselves and their nature as they see fit so long as they do not directly harm others in a practical sense. You exist in a pluralistic society. Politics and Law increasingly reflects that fact. You are not in a Christian America. It is abundantly clear that in a secular system the freedom to be according to your desire, legally speaking, is more important than enforcing Christian morality; the only restriction is practical concerns.

The legal sense of Freedom in that society has nothing to do with God but rather it is to do with human autonomy and how one governs that autonomy.

That’s why i am confused as to why Christians have chosen to exert their moral influence and faith through legal channels. Why have you put your faith in the system?

You cannot build a truly christian society that way.
 
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Raxus said:
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Bradskii:
I’m not going to let you change the question around. Which is, if the US is solidly Christian, why does it do so badly compared to more secular countries?
Click to expand...
It was my original question to YOU, sir. One last time, or else you tacitly admit that you cannot:
Can you please show me a country that isn’t based on Judeo-Christian concepts of law that is better in all the categories you mentioned than the U.S?
Click to expand...
Yes, it was your original loaded question which completely deflects from the point being made. Loaded because all you need do is repeat the mantra that ‘that country was based on Judeo Christian values’ whilst completely and utterly discounting current problems versus the current degree that each country classes itself as Christian.

That is, how does a country’s self declared adherence to Christianity compare with a disinterested look at the social problems they have. And the US does very badly indeed. So maybe you can draw some conclusions about that and bring them to the table rather than deflect from that specific poi t.

And in passing, a few minutes searching on Google gives some info on South Korea v the US (I sincerely hope you are not going to suggest that South Korea was based on anything Christian):

Their homicide rate is 15% that of the US.
Nearly half of US marriages end in divorce. It’s just over a third in South Korea.
Contraceptive use in South Korea is around 80%. In the US, almost 99% of women have used contraception at least once (mortal sin, dontcha know).
And abortions in the US are running at 1,460 per 100,000. A truly shocking number. Guess what the situation is in South Korea? It’s illegal.
 
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edwest211 said:
I have seen that the establishment of various groups occurred in the late 1960s. They were unified in two goals: destroy the family and introduce bad ideas while inside the Church and start bad catechesis. In the 1970s, there was the appearance of adult bookstores selling graphic porn when just a few years earlier, the worst you could legally buy was Playboy. Strip clubs and topless bars appeared. Who paid for all that and profited from all that? Whoever it was knew that porn addiction would follow. The Women’s Liberation Movement occurred in the 1970s. Abortion was legalized in 1973. The destruction of the family was the goal. No-Fault Divorce in the 1980s? That was invented out of thin air. Again, let’s make it easy by allowing either party to deny wrongdoing. I’m not referring to abuse.

The 1990s and casual sex? Really? Contraception instead of personal responsibility. Why bother getting married? Now we have the hook-up culture. And the CDC is telling us the country has an STD epidemic?

No, not “everybody is doing it,” but turn on your TV and watch it all played out in front of you. Actors portraying cohabitation, fornication and other perverse behaviors as good, normal or average. Coincidence? NO. And the National Organization for Women - what are they up to? Go to now.org
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And who is doing all this fornication and cohabitation? I doubt if you’d worry if it were the 2or 3 percent who have no belief. You are worried, or at least you should be worried, that the vast majority of people fornicating and selling porn and hooking up and spreading std’s and getting abortions are members of an overwhelmingly Christian society.

Not working out so well for you guys in a secular society. One in which there are no laws to prevent you having sex outside marriage or getting an abortion or producing porn. Your religious laws, the rules you are meant to follow as per Christ’s example, are not working. And you keep posting examples of that all the time.

You really need to stop shooting yourself in the foot.
 
And, in passing, you want to convince all and sundry that a tiny minority of people, with some imaginary long term, world wide agenda are leading you all astray.

Good grief. What are you? Sheep? Are you that easily led that some porn, an easy way to divorce and some freely available condoms are all it takes? Where’s your moral fibre? Where are those who will lead by example? All we get are platitudes and hypochrisy.

If there is a second coming, you guys better watch out. You couldn’t be doing any worse if you actively tried. The son of God is NOT going to be happy.
 
Corruption takes time. If we had gone from Ozzie and Harriet to Two and a Half Men overnight, people would have reacted. Songs used to be banned on the radio. There were vice squads. There were raids.

Slavery to the flesh is not the way forward. Isaiah 42:7:

New International Version
to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

New Living Translation
You will open the eyes of the blind. You will free the captives from prison, releasing those who sit in dark dungeons.

English Standard Version
to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness.
 
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It has been said you can’t legislate morality but it is obvious you can legislate the slaughter of the unborn, the exploitation of women through pornography and other socially corrupt and harmful things. I will always uphold those who value the general welfare and who reveal degradation and corruption that is falsely called ‘freedom.’
 
edwest211 said:
It has been said you can’t legislate morality but it is obvious you can legislate the slaughter of the unborn, the exploitation of women through pornography and other socially corrupt and harmful things. I will always uphold those who value the general welfare and who reveal degradation and corruption that is falsely called ‘freedom.’
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But i don’t understand why you would be surprised that in a secular system people would legally be able to act and behave and think in a manner that is contrary to religious beliefs within practical limits. It’s the nature of the system!!!
 
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edwest211 said:
Corruption takes time. If we had gone from Ozzie and Harriet to Two and a Half Men overnight, people would have reacted. Songs used to be banned on the radio. There were vice squads. There were raids.

Slavery to the flesh is not the way forward. Isaiah 42:7:

New International Version
to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

New Living Translation
You will open the eyes of the blind. You will free the captives from prison, releasing those who sit in dark dungeons.

English Standard Version
to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness.
Click to expand...
Ah. So all that the World Wide Conspiracy Of Family Destroying Leftists (WWCOFDL) had to do to lead you all astray was to boil you slowly.

You’re all a bit like alcoholics in that regard. Just one drink. Just one more extra marital sexual escapade. Just a couple of porn videos. I’m not morally bankrupt! I can stop whenever I want.

Fair enough. But do you know what ticks me off mightilly? It’s when the drunk doesn’t take personal responsibility for his actions but blames it on others. ‘I’d be fine, but gee, it’s so easy to get a drink. It’s a conspriacy I tell you. They gradually suck you in…’

Quite a pathetic attitude, wouldn’t you agree?
 
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