You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
In Catholicism: No man knows the day or the hour? Does Jesus know?
- Thread starter Guest1
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
P
pianistclare
Guest
Don’t you believe that Jesus is God? Or simply a man?
If He’s GOD…then yeah, He knows.
If He’s GOD…then yeah, He knows.
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
The passage says he doesn’t. Of course this is one of those passages where, despite it saying X, people will try to convince you it means not X.
M
MaryT777
Guest
Mark 13:32New International Version (NIV)
The Day and Hour Unknown
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
The Day and Hour Unknown
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
R
runningdude
Guest
God the Son is equal to his Father in all ways. It is out of humility that he is subordinate. The knowledge belongs to the Father; because the Son is charged with implementing his Father’s plan, by necessity, he had to be told the plan. As a man, like us in every way however, it was not Jesus’ knowledge to share.
Last edited:
A
AlNg
Guest
If only the Father knows the day or hour, then does that mean that both the Son and the Holy Spirit do not know? This seems to contradict the omniscience or the all-knowing power of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?Mark 13:32New International Version (NIV)
The Day and Hour Unknown
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
That’s an important point. One of the ways some people explain Jesus’ lack of knowledge of the day and hour is that “he was speaking from his human nature” as if it was a switch that could be flipped. The Holy Spirit has no such limitation, so even that explanation (such as it is) can’t be used with it.If only the Father knows the day or hour, then does that mean that both the Son and the Holy Spirit do not know? This seems to contradict the omniscience or the all-knowing power of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?
B
Benadam
Guest
He didn’t know because it was good for Him not to. Jesus was given what He needed to know to accomplish His ministry. He was not omniscient when He was on earth. As it St. Paul wrote, “He emptied Himself”.
Or as Pope St. John Paul lI asked; " could God stoop any lower?
Or as Pope St. John Paul lI asked; " could God stoop any lower?
Last edited:
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
Yet on Earth there are several times where Jesus expresses divine knowledge so it’s not as though he stooped to human levels of knowledge. Why is it good that he doesn’t know the day and hour? He knows that he is returning and gives details in the Olivet Discourse, so somehow it’s good to know future events but not the specifics. All told it doesn’t add up.He didn’t know because it was good for Him not to. Jesus was given what He needed to know to accomplish His ministry. He was not omniscient when He was on earth. As it St. Paul wrote, “He emptied Himself”.
Or as Pope St. John Paul lI asked; " could God stoop any lower?
B
Benadam
Guest
Expressing divine knowledge is something many people have done having been gifted with it. And yes Jesus was limited to a human body like anyone else. He received revelation from His Father in as much as a human is able to. Jesus enjoyed the beatific vision from His infancy I’ve read a few times.
Because that’s what His Father willed. Other than that I’m with you. Don’t know. What Jesus revealed to us and what He didn’t were what we need to know or not know. Like His Father was to Him, He is to us. He taught us what was good to know.Why is it good that he doesn’t know the day and hour?
Last edited:
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
All this would make him part God and part man, but the Church claims he was fully God and fully man.
As far as this gap in knowledge of Jesus’, how does anyone know that it’s because it’s what God the Father willed? It’s purely speculation to try and explain away God lacking that which makes him God. It’s no different than J.K. Rowling trying to smooth over a plothole that her readers discover.
As far as this gap in knowledge of Jesus’, how does anyone know that it’s because it’s what God the Father willed? It’s purely speculation to try and explain away God lacking that which makes him God. It’s no different than J.K. Rowling trying to smooth over a plothole that her readers discover.
Last edited:
B
Benadam
Guest
We know because Jesus’ food was His Father’s will. If He didn’t know something it was because His Father willed it. Whatever the Father wills is good. You think if God decides to empty Himself of His powers and becomes man He is no longer God? Because that is what happened according to all authority given us from God. The Word as expressed in the Bible, Tradition and the Magisterium
Last edited:
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
So the explanation as to why we know this hole in Jesus’ knowledge comes from the father’s will is because… the father willed it? That’s not an answer but a repeating of the question.We know because Jesus’ food was His Father’s will. If He didn’t know something it was because His Father willed it.
If he does not possess all of the attributes of God than he can’t be considered fully God. Through this passage we can also say that the Holy Spirit is also not fully God as it does not possess all of the attributes of God.Whatever the Father wills is good. You think if God decides to empty Himself of His powers and becomes man He is no longer God? Because that is what happened according to all authority given us from God. The Word as expressed in the Bible, Tradition and the Magisterium
And you say this is what happened, but it presents its own set of problems. It doesn’t answer the question as to why Jesus had pretty much most of the details of his return (including the signs to look for and that it would happen during the lifetimes of the apostles) but not the specific day and hour. Also, it’s not falsifiable. If we say that any such non-concrete speculation as to why an event occurred as it did is because the Church says it did, then why even bother with apologetics? Why have a place to probe for answers when the default position when this myriad of issues arise is to just say the Church can’t be wrong?
B
Benadam
Guest
And why can’t God do that.If he does not possess all of the attributes of God than he can’t be considered fully God.
According to you I guess not. Maybe God for you isn’t powerful eneogh. My God can and did.
I already answered this question. I can see this isn’t an exchange of ideas between you and I but your attempt to win a Jesus isn’t God argument.It doesn’t answer the question as to why Jesus had pretty much most of the details of his return (including the signs to look for and that it would happen during the lifetimes of the apostles) but not the specific day and hour.
Last edited:
V
Vico
Guest
Haydock Commentary on Mark 13:32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.In Mark 13:32 Does Jesus know?
Ver. 32. But how can the Son be ignorant of that last day? Were this the case, we must thence conclude that his nature was imperfect: since he was under the necessity of a second coming, and yet was ignorant when that time should be. But we must remember, that the meaning of this sentence is not, that Christ was really ignorant of this circumstance, but only that it was not then a convenient time to disclose the secret. (St. Augustine)
— Not as if Christ were ignorant himself, as certain Eutychian heretics, called Agnoitæ, held; but because he knew it not as our teacher, to teach it others, as being not expedient. (St. Ambrose, de fide, lib. v. chap. viii.)
— The Son of God is ignorant of this day, not according to his divinity, which sees and knows all things; but according to his humanity, which does not know it of itself, of its own light, but by revelation which is made to it by the divinity, which is intimately united to it. In naturâ quidem divinitatis novit, says St. Gregory, non ex naturâ humanitatis. See St. Matthew xxiv. 36.
Last edited:
V
Vico
Guest
Also see Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, no not the Angels of heaven, but the Father alone.In Mark 13:32 Does Jesus know?
Haydock Commentary on Matthew xxiv. 36.
Ver. 36. No man knoweth … but the Father alone. The words in St. Mark (xiii. 32.) are still harder: neither the angels, nor the Son, but the Father. The Arians objected this place, to shew that Christ being ignorant of the day of judgment, could not be truly God. By the same words, no one knoweth, but the Father alone, (as they expound them) the Holy Ghost must be excluded from being the true God. In answer to this difficulty, when it is said, but the Father alone, it is certain that the eternal Son and the Holy Ghost could never be ignorant of the day of judgment: because, as they are one and the same God, so they must have one and the same nature, the same substance, wisdom, knowledge, and all absolute perfections. 2. It is also certain that Jesus Christ knew the day of judgment, and all things to come, by a knowledge which he could not but have, because of the union by which his human nature was united to the divine person and nature. See Colossians ii. 3. And so to attribute any ignorance to Christ, was the error of those heretics called Agnoitai. 3. But though Christ, as a man, knew the day of judgment, yet this knowledge was not due to him as he was man, or because he was man, but he only knew the day of judgment, because he was God as well as man. 4. It is the common answer of the fathers, that Christ here speaks to his disciples, only as he was the ambassador of his Father; and so he is only to know what he is to make known to men. He is said not to know, says St. Augustine[5], what he will not make others know, or what he will not reveal to them. (Witham)
— By this Jesus Christ wished to suppress the curiosity of his disciples. In the same manner after his resurrection, he answered the same question: 'Tis not for you to know the times and the moments, which the Father has placed in his own power. This last clause is added, that the apostles might not be discouraged and think their divine Master esteemed them unworthy of knowing these things. Some Greek manuscripts add nor even the Son, as in Mark xiii. 32. The Son is ignorant of it, not according to his divinity, nor even according to his humanity hypostatically united to his divinity, but according to his humanity, considered as separate from his divinity. (Bible de Vence)
B
Benadam
Guest
From this it looks like His divine nature, though omnipotent, was experienced in measure and received in accordance to the human nature.And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.
B
Benadam
Guest
That’s it!It is the common answer of the fathers, that Christ here speaks to his disciples, only as he was the ambassador of his Father; and so he is only to know what he is to make known to men.
So, He only knew Himself what men needed to know.He is said not to know, says St. Augustine[5], what he will not make others know, or what he will not reveal to them. (Witham)
Thanks Vico
Last edited:
B
Benadam
Guest
So, if Jesus only knew what men needed to know then…The Father must have been in charge of that fountain of knowledge, No?
Last edited:
V
Vico
Guest
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are omniscient.So, if Jesus only knew what men needed to know then…The Father must have been in charge of that fountain of knowledge, No?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.