In Defense of Joseph Smith

[John_Lazarus]

He said that only he could keep a church together and not even Jesus Christ could do it.

What do you think of the quote from Joseph Smith claiming to be more successful than Jesus?

The nerve. Next he’ll be saying he’s bigger than John Lennon.

 

[lax16]

The nerve. Next he’ll be saying he’s bigger than John Lennon.

I couldn’t less care if he compared himself to John Lennon…but Jesus Christ is another story.

 

[Horton]

It wasn’t the Catholic church back then. Just because you guys keep calling the Catholic church doesn’t mean it was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_term_%22Catholic%22

As someone else said wikipedia could save you a great deal of embarrassment with your posts.

 

[adrift]

. Those Christians would have been looking for Apostles which are not found in the Catholic church. The sad thing is, if you came to the Catholic church looking for an apostle, you would have been excommunicated for being a heretic.

After thinking about this some more, I would like to add. The Catholic Church has the Apostles, after all our first Pope was Peter an Apostle.

What is an Apostle?

From Acts 1

20

For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’

21

Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,

22

beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection."

In order to be an Apostle:
1, he must have been with Jesus the whole time Jesus was among them that is witnessing the baptism of John to the time Jesus was crucified.
2. he was a witness to the resurrection.
Unless this criteria is met, they are not an Apostle.

 

[PaulDupre1]

What we also know is that Moses commanded the children of Israel to practice polygamy. Or was it, adultery!?!

There is no biblical evidence that Moses commanded the children of Israel to practice polygamy. The only thing the bible reports about polygamy is that Moses regulated polygamy, the same way he regulated divorce and revenge.

Polygamy, divorce and revenge were all deeply-ingrained artifacts of the existing culture of the time. Rather than try to dismantle an entire culture all at once, God gave commandments to regulate the things that were offensive to Him. Later on in the OT, polygamy seems to have disappeared.

Now Mormons will agree that divorce and revenge are not commanded by God. Why the double standard about polygamy?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre1]

I thought this as well also but it also possible that the Ethiopian woman was Zipporah.

Possible, yes. But the bible indicates that Zipporah’s father Jethro was a descendant of Abraham through Abraham’s wife Keturah who gave birth to a son she named Midian. The land of Midian was named for him. Jethro was a priest of Midian, so Zipporah could well have been a descendant of Abraham. And Midian was not Ethiopia or Cush.

The only reason we know about the Ethiopian woman that Moses married is because Aaron and Miriam complained about it (Num 12:1). But that episode is many decades after Moses had married Zipporah. It seems unlikely that they would start complaining about his marriage unless it were a recent occurrence. They were angry with Moses because he had married outside the Levite clan (again).

I surmise that this was a second marriage for Moses, after the death of Zipporah, because it is mentioned many decades after Moses had married Zipporah. So it is likely that Zipporah was already dead by this time.

But the bible doesn’t give a lot of detail about any of this, so who knows? I, for one, do not see any evidence that Moses was a polygamist or commanded polygamy as BoJ claims.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre1]

Isn’t it interesting that Moses, the prophet who brought us the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery” had more than one wife. Maybe he didn’t know the definition!?!

You have yet to show that Moses married two distinct women and that both were his wives at the same time. You can’t show that, because the bible gives no indication of it whatsoever.

You are merely reading things into the text that are not there in order to justify the adultery of your church’s founders.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[adrift]

That’s the Jewish belief:

From JewishAnswers.org:
Moses’ Cushite Wife

Does it say somewhere in the Torah that Moses’ wife was black?

The answer to your question is found in Bamidbar (Numbers) 12:1, which tells us of the “Cushite” woman that Moses married. Cush is the area we call Ethiopia today, so someone from Cush would be black. Despite the fact that the Torah speaks of this Cushite wife, the fact that this wife is mentioned nowhere else in the Bible led many commentators, with Rashi at their head, to conclude that **this “Cushite” wife is none other than Moses’ wife Tzippora, who is called a Cushite euphemistically **for different reasons. Rashi’s take on it is that she was called a Cushite to make the point that the contrast of her incredible beauty to others was as obvious as the darkness of a Cushite. Other commentators, however, basing themselves on a work called “Moses’ chronicles” cited by a Midrash, explain that the Torah is referring to a woman Moses married (presumably after converting her to Monotheism) when he spent forty years in Cush after escaping Egypt the first time, before he ended up in Median with Tzipporah.

Thanks,
Raffy Davidovich

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

ZIPPORAH.
—Biblical Data:
Daughter of Jethro and wife of Moses. According to the Bible,Moses met the daughters of Jethro when they were being driven away from a well by shepherds; he assisted them, and was invited into the house of Jethro, who gave him Zipporah to be his wife (Ex. ii. 21). On his return to Egypt, Moses was accompanied by his wife, who saved him from great danger during their journey (ib. iv. 24-26). She appears to have returned with her children to her father’s house; for after the exodus from Egypt, Jethro brought Zipporah and her children out to Moses in the wilderness (ib. xviii. 2-5). Zipporah is mentioned only once more in the Bible; namely, in Numbers xii. 1, where she is referred to as “the Ethiopian woman,” for having married whom Moses is upbraided by Miriam and Aaron.

—In Rabbinical Literature:

Zipporah is mentioned by the Rabbis alternately with praise and with blame. Her name (= “bird”) is explained as having been given her because, when questioned by her father as to the man who had rescued her, she flew out of the house like a bird and returned with Moses (Yalḳ., Shim’oni, i. 169). R. Joshua was of the opinion that Zipporah and Moses were always estranged, and that the latter did not love his wife (ib. 268). The name “Cushite” was given to her, it is said, because she was distinguished from other women by her beauty, even as the Ethiopians differed from other people in their complexions. The circumstance that she is twice referred to in one verse as “the Ethiopian” (Num. xii. 1) is explained as indicating that her actions were as distinctive as her beauty, and that she conducted herself no less royally while in her father’s house than when she became the wife of Moses (Yalḳ., Shim’oni, 1238; comp. also M. Ḳ. 16b; Yer. Sanh. x. 28d).

Possible, yes. But the bible indicates that Zipporah’s father Jethro was a descendant of Abraham through Abraham’s wife Keturah who gave birth to a son she named Midian. The land of Midian was named for him. Jethro was a priest of Midian, so Zipporah could well have been a descendant of Abraham. And Midian was not Ethiopia or Cush.

The only reason we know about the Ethiopian woman that Moses married is because Aaron and Miriam complained about it (Num 12:1). But that episode is many decades after Moses had married Zipporah. It seems unlikely that they would start complaining about his marriage unless it were a recent occurrence. They were angry with Moses because he had married outside the Levite clan (again).

I surmise that this was a second marriage for Moses, after the death of Zipporah, because it is mentioned many decades after Moses had married Zipporah. So it is likely that Zipporah was already dead by this time.

But the bible doesn’t give a lot of detail about any of this, so who knows? I, for one, do not see any evidence that Moses was a polygamist or commanded polygamy as BoJ claims.

Paul

I guess that is why it is debated but certainly what it doesn’t indicate is that Moses promoted, ordered, or practiced polygamy.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I guess that is why it is debated but certainly what it doesn’t indicate is that Moses promoted, ordered, or practiced polygamy.

Exactly. Why don’t the LDS see that? When I was an LDS convert, I accepted the idea that Moses practiced and commanded polygamy, because I had never read the OT for myself. The first time I did, I realized that the I and the other LDS were wrong about it.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[BrotherofJared]

They didn’t look for the Apostles. This is an error of the LDS. No where in Scripture does it state go look for the Apostle. What they looked for was the authority of Jesus which only the Catholic Church has. Would you like to document your last statement?

1 Cor 12:28 - And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets…

You would be hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t say that in the Bible any where, so I’m providing a place where it does say it. There was no such office as a Pope in the early Christian church, how would they know to find authority in there?

 

[LivingWaters7]

You would be hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t say that in the Bible any where, so I’m providing a place where it does say it. There was no such office as a Pope in the early Christian church, how would they know to find authority in there?

“Pope” is not an office. “Pope” is a title. The office of the Pope is that of bishop.

 

[BrotherofJared]

I call bull pucky on that one.

Duet 25:6-12. I’m not going to post the whole thing here, you’ll need to look it up, but basically it provides for the living kinsman to take his dead brother’s wife and produce children so that he, the dead brother, might have an heir. Now that doesn’t say polygamy by itself, but it would be counter productive to have a law that prevented the living brother from having any heirs, especially if the law was designed so that the dead brother could have heirs. This law was so commonly known and practiced that even David’s family practiced it and the situation was presented to Christ in a effort to discredit the reality of the resurrection.

Moses practiced what he preached and authorized it by law in the circumstances provided here.

 

[adrift]

You would be hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t say that in the Bible any where, so I’m providing a place where it does say it. There was no such office as a Pope in the early Christian church, how would they know to find authority in there?

1 Cor 12:28 - And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets…

 

[BrotherofJared]

What exactly do you mean?

I mean the persecuted early Christians didn’t all themselves Catholics as iepuras implies. During that time, they didn’t even call themselves Christians. The Bible uses terms that used as disciples or saints. Precisely my statement is, the early Christians were not Catholic. That came later.

 

[adrift]

You would be hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t say that in the Bible any where, so I’m providing a place where it does say it. There was no such office as a Pope in the early Christian church, how would they know to find authority in there?

You would be hard pressed to prove that it doesn’t say that in the Bible any where, so I’m providing a place where it does say it. There was no such office as a Pope in the early Christian church, how would they know to find authority in there?

1 Cor 12:28 - And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets…

I don’t know how you think that this proves that the Christians were looking for the Apostles. It only speaks to the different chrisms. Note that it says not all can be Apostles and also note that except for Matthias no other of the twelve were replaced.
The Apostles and what makes an Apostle I assume you haven’t got to that post yet but I will repeat it
Acts 1 20-22
In order to be an Apostle:
1, he must have been with Jesus the whole time Jesus was among them that is witnessing the baptism of John to the time Jesus was crucified.
2. he was a witness to the resurrection.
Unless this criteria is met, they are not an Apostle.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Please answer which false accusations Joseph Smith was not willing to back down to (3rd request).

I did not make that statement, so I’m not inclined to answer it. I was responding your your question:

Should a modern day prophet follow Jesus’ example?

 

[adrift]

I mean the persecuted early Christians didn’t all themselves Catholics as iepuras implies. During that time, they didn’t even call themselves Christians. The Bible uses terms that used as disciples or saints. Precisely my statement is, the early Christians were not Catholic. That came later.

Define “early”

 

[LivingWaters7]

The authority of the Apostles came from their priesthood office, which was that of bishop. For example, when speaking of who will replace Judas, we read:

Acts 1:20

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

So, while the Apostles were also bishops, not all bishops were/are Apostles. The Apostles passed on their authority (their “bishoprick”) to their successors, and Catholic bishops are their successors.

Catholic history is also filled with many examples of prophets and prophetesses. We have many people that received Heavenly visions, angelic visitations, messages from Heaven, etc. The Church has approved many of these occurrences as worthy of belief by the faithful. In contrast, Mormonism decides to call 15 men “prophets, seers, and revelators”, yet these men do none of those things, at least not in any way that would distinguish them from the non-prophet leaders of various other religions.

 

[adrift]

Duet 25:6-12. I’m not going to post the whole thing here, you’ll need to look it up, but basically it provides for the living kinsman to take his dead brother’s wife and produce children so that he, the dead brother, might have an heir. Now that doesn’t say polygamy by itself, but it would be counter productive to have a law that prevented the living brother from having any heirs, especially if the law was designed so that the dead brother could have heirs. This law was so commonly known and practiced that even David’s family practiced it and the situation was presented to Christ in a effort to discredit the reality of the resurrection.

Moses practiced what he preached and authorized it by law in the circumstances provided here.

Your quite correct this does not say anything about polygamy. What you miss is that it was only the first born that was considered the off spring of the dead brother after that the children were of the live husband.

 

[JaminB123]

Duet 25:6-12. I’m not going to post the whole thing here, you’ll need to look it up

I’ll post the whole thing here, because it’s a lousy prooftext for Christian polygamy:

“6 And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his brother who is dead, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 7 And if the man does not wish to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders, and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak to him: and if he persists, saying, ‘I do not wish to take her,’ 9 then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, ‘So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ 10 And the name of his house[a] shall be called in Israel, The house of him that had his sandal pulled off. 11 When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity.”

If this is the best proof from Mormonism that polygamy is commanded by God and somehow a legitimate Christian practice, then the conversation is over.

There are ample endorsements of monogamy from the New Testament that supersede any pro-polygamy/pro-polyandry interpretations of the above. Here’s a few:

“…let each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.” - 1 Corinthians 7:2

“And the two shall become one flesh” - Mark 10:8

“‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife…” - Mark 10:7

“Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife…” - 1 Timothy 3:2

Monogamy is central to the Christian teaching on marriage, epitomized in the ideal of Christ as the groom and his Church as the bride. God may have tolerated polygamy in the OT, just as he tolerated adultery. But Jesus raised the moral bar in the New Testament and called us to perfection in marriage, eschewing divorce and polygamy. As the Catechism and the NT teach, polygamy is not God’s design for Christian marriage. This was so in Eden and has always been so in the Christian era. Only a Mormon would disagree.