In 'Design' vs. Darwinism, Darwin Wins Point in Rome

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How is this in agreement with Pope Benedict XVI’s statement:

“We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary. There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ.”?

Evolution posits the “design” of man in the product of an organisms survival over billions years, rendering any intentions beyond the survival aspect as meaningless and influencial in its development.

Furthermore, was there death before sin? If there was no death before sin, how was there evolution?

It is an inconsistent position if you ask me.
 
Furthermore, was there death before sin? If there was no death before sin, how was there evolution?
When the Bible says that there was no death before sin, it is speaking about death in a spiritual sense. Obviously, before sin entered the world there was no damnation (or “death”).
 
Here’s an article that doesn’t require registration to read:

“Intelligent design not science, says Vatican newspaper article”

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0600273.htm

I’m totally impressed with our Church on this issue. I have had the misfortune of dealing with some of the rabid anti-evolutionists face-to-face. In Kansas, unfortunately, they are generally the same people as in the pro-life group.

This is one of the best examples I’ve seen of the cooperation of Church and Science, and it is the Catholic Church from which I am hearing these soothing tones of sanity. 👍

Here is one of my favorite parts of the story:
“If the model proposed by Darwin is held to be inadequate, one should look for another model. But it is not correct methodology to stray from the field of science pretending to do science,” it said.
The article said a Pennsylvania judge had acted properly when he ruled in December that intelligent design could not be taught as science in schools.
“Intelligent design does not belong to science and there is no justification for the pretext that it be taught as a scientific theory alongside the Darwinian explanation,” it said.
Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
I’m totally impressed with our Church on this issue. I have had the misfortune of dealing with some of the rabid anti-evolutionists face-to-face. In Kansas, unfortunately, they are generally the same people as in the pro-life group.
Alan, while I no longer claim to be Catholic, I continue to admire Rome’s ability to embrace science without fear that it will compromise faith.

As to any pro-life/ID link, I am pleased to report that I have not observed one. I can respect the pro-life crowd, but have no time for ID.

Nohome
 
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Nohome:
Alan, while I no longer claim to be Catholic, I continue to admire Rome’s ability to embrace science without fear that it will compromise faith.
Yes, me too even though many think the Church is anti-science for some reason. Gosh, much of today’s science has been shaped by discoveries by Vatican scientists.
As to any pro-life/ID link, I am pleased to report that I have not observed one. I can respect the pro-life crowd, but have no time for ID.
This is good news. The ID became popular since I was involved, so I’m not as personally involved with people like that as the anti-Darwin types who ran rampant among the pro-life crowd here.

Alan
 
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Nohome:
Alan, while I no longer claim to be Catholic, I continue to admire Rome’s ability to embrace science without fear that it will compromise faith.

As to any pro-life/ID link, I am pleased to report that I have not observed one. I can respect the pro-life crowd, but have no time for ID.

Nohome
Because secularists with the unwitting but vital assistance of our “seperated Fundamentalist bretheren” (and sisteren) have once again been able to define and curtail the debate.

ID simply says that the cosmos (especially the appearance of life) is far too complex and ordered to have happened randomly in a closed system no matter how vast. In this case Albert Einstein could be the poster boy for ID (“God does not play dice” for example and countless other statements he made). A massive preponderance of hard scientific evidence backs this position up.

Secularists tar the entire ID debate with the same brush with which they (rightly I think) tar Creationism. And they know it! If you read their formal, legal protests against ID being taught in schools they’re now claiming that ID is a way to “sneak in Creationism”, thereby conceding that the two are not the same! Rational proponents of ID are now forced to fight a war on two fronts-against fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist secularists. The press of course eats this up and portrays ID as Creationism.

If you’d like to read an intelligent book about Intelligent Design (science vs. Scientism in general really) read The Science Before Science by Anthony Rizzi. He’s the physiscist who solved the 80 y/o problem of a definition for angular momentum within Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Not too shabby credentials.
 
The Darwiniac’s Creed:

Children must be taught that nature has no purpose,
beyond “survival of the fittest” – though even survival
is, strictly speaking, an accident rather than a purpose.
We owe our existence, our humanity itself, not to
anything intelligent, but to the chance mutations of
stupid matter.

This is the dogma of Darwinism, which passes for
“religious neutrality” (at least among the modern
mainstream of the irreligious). As always, liberalism is
playing its old game of “Let’s compromise my way.” The
happy medium between theism and atheism is atheism. As
long as you don’t call it atheism, of course. (You should
call it Science.)

Obviously there is no end to this kind of thinking.
It follows that we can believe pretty much whatever we
want to, since Nature’s only commandment, so to speak, is
“Thou shalt survive.” I’m not sure why this particular
belief is held with such evangelical fervor. Why is it so
urgent to teach the kids that life is absurd? Are little
Darwinists better equipped for survival than little
Christians? Is that what the Constitution tells us? Does the
Constitution say “all men evolved equally”?
 
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mdzialo1:
The Darwiniac’s Creed:

Children must be taught that nature has no purpose,
beyond “survival of the fittest” – though even survival
is, strictly speaking, an accident rather than a purpose.
We owe our existence, our humanity itself, not to
anything intelligent, but to the chance mutations of
stupid matter.

This is the dogma of Darwinism, which passes for
“religious neutrality” (at least among the modern
mainstream of the irreligious). As always, liberalism is
playing its old game of “Let’s compromise my way.” The
happy medium between theism and atheism is atheism. As
long as you don’t call it atheism, of course. (You should
call it Science.)

Obviously there is no end to this kind of thinking.
It follows that we can believe pretty much whatever we
want to, since Nature’s only commandment, so to speak, is
“Thou shalt survive.” I’m not sure why this particular
belief is held with such evangelical fervor. Why is it so
urgent to teach the kids that life is absurd? Are little
Darwinists better equipped for survival than little
Christians? Is that what the Constitution tells us? Does the
Constitution say “all men evolved equally”?
Because if there’s nothing but the material then the only allegiance that makes sense is to those who can “take care of you” or (if you’re lucky) to yourself (the Autonomous Self). Atheists almost always combine both principles. “Little Christians” aren’t as easy to control.

Of course, scientists also consider themselves to be at the very top of the Fundamentalist Darwinian food chain too!..as do Upper West Side Manhattanites, professors, actors, journalists (my God), politicians, etc. The idea of any kind of transcendant Absolute (Truth for example) brings their entire world view down and generally rains on their parade.
 
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MarkR:
ID simply says that the cosmos (especially the appearance of life) is far too complex and ordered to have happened randomly in a closed system no matter how vast.
Unfortunately for ID supporters, there is no evidence for this.
In this case Albert Einstein could be the poster boy for ID (“God does not play dice” for example and countless other statements he made).
A nice philosophical position, but not one that can be shown though evidence.
A massive preponderance of hard scientific evidence backs this position up.
Please cite one bit of scientific evidence for God (and don’t try telling me that God isn’t the intelligent designer, especially if you are a Christian).
Secularists tar the entire ID debate with the same brush with which they (rightly I think) tar Creationism. And they know it! If you read their formal, legal protests against ID being taught in schools they’re now claiming that ID is a way to “sneak in Creationism”, thereby conceding that the two are not the same! Rational proponents of ID are now forced to fight a war on two fronts-against fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist secularists. The press of course eats this up and portrays ID as Creationism.
Just out of curiosity, did you follow the lawsuit in Dover, PA? If so, you know why “secularists” think ID is nothing but creationism in disguise. I’m not talking about the decision itself, although that was pretty damning to the ID cause. Rather, the use of the textbook supported by the Discovery Institute was the smoking gun.
If you’d like to read an intelligent book about Intelligent Design (science vs. Scientism in general really) read The Science Before Science by Anthony Rizzi. He’s the physiscist who solved the 80 y/o problem of a definition for angular momentum within Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Not too shabby credentials.
I wonder which of the physics courses he took discussed evolution?😉

Peace

Tim
 
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mdzialo1:
The Darwiniac’s Creed:

Children must be taught that nature has no purpose,
beyond “survival of the fittest” – though even survival
is, strictly speaking, an accident rather than a purpose.
We owe our existence, our humanity itself, not to
anything intelligent, but to the chance mutations of
stupid matter.

This is the dogma of Darwinism, which passes for
“religious neutrality” (at least among the modern
mainstream of the irreligious). As always, liberalism is
playing its old game of “Let’s compromise my way.” The
happy medium between theism and atheism is atheism. As
long as you don’t call it atheism, of course. (You should
call it Science.)

Obviously there is no end to this kind of thinking.
It follows that we can believe pretty much whatever we
want to, since Nature’s only commandment, so to speak, is
“Thou shalt survive.” I’m not sure why this particular
belief is held with such evangelical fervor. Why is it so
urgent to teach the kids that life is absurd? Are little
Darwinists better equipped for survival than little
Christians? Is that what the Constitution tells us? Does the
Constitution say “all men evolved equally”?
Hopefully this is a characature against Darwin believers. If Darwin actually thought this way, then his stupid attitude has been mellowed by science into one that makes more sense.

This is not what they teach my children in their conservative Catholic High School. There, in religion classes, they teach about creation (and BTW they do teach that Genesis is to be interpreted figuratively) and in science they teach evolution.

To believe in natural selection and variation, and survival of the fittest does not require any of the “dirt is stoopid” nonsense. Gosh, if God made us from dirt then yes, we were made of stupid, inert materials – so I, for one, am not opposed to God having taken a few years at it.

Much of the problem I see comes with the literalists of Genesis, who insist that creation is opposed to evolution, when it simply isn’t. They rail about the fact that the world was created in a seven days, totally ignoring the scripture that clearly states God has no time reference that humans can measure (with God 1000 years is like a day and vice versa). They don’t even notice that they are using a definition of day that human beings have created and embraced that didn’t even apply from the very beginning of creation but until the second period of time.

My older children were in an otherwise wonderful singing group “Kids for Christ” who sang like angels until they got too political by singing a astoundingly stupid anti-Darwin concert and suddenly the contributions and even participants weren’t enough to sustain the group. It was just after they finally got enough money to start buying their own equipment such as risers, then “poof” the group seemed to disappear and the probably-no-wiser leader was tearful. Guess their message wasn’t fit enough. 😃

Clearly ID is just a way to try to cram religion into public science classrooms. To me this is very dangerous because it is NOT paying respect to God just to “throw” Him into places where he doesn’t apply.

Parents need to do what I do with my kids. Keep track of what they learn, and if/when they learn something I think needs my own slant on it, I teach them that. I can respect the religious beliefs of people who tout “ID” but that’s what they are; they are not science.

You don’t hear them going into the chemistry classes all alarmed because they put two clear liquids together and got a purple one. Why isn’t this also God’s work? Could a “stupid” bunch of molecules have conspired to behave that way?

Alan
 
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Orogeny:
I wonder which of the physics courses he took discussed evolution?😉
This is an excellent question.

For myself, Einstein and others actually helped me believe in God when my experiences with the Church were, well, infrequent, while I was at undergraduate school learning all these wonderful classical and modern physics. The reason was not that they understood anything about God, but that they were scientists I respected a great deal (including a Circuits II teacher who put a Bible quote on the top of every exam – it was a private engineering school in Terre Haute IN) who had evidently come to terms with the idea of God.

I figured if they could explain the mysteries of science and still believed in God, then being a fool from the science standpoint is NOT a requisite for believing in God. Honestly, this is the thread of hope that kept me going until I got back to work on my own faith years later.

One of my favorite Einstein quotes is “science without religion is blind; religion without science is lame.” Notice that he considered them two separate things. If he was an expert in areas outside physics, then he may have seen some of the visions I have of recent, of a true “theory of everything” which encompasses God and science. He couldn’t do that because he was a specialist. He knew that he could not dismiss a Creator, but as far as I know, has not worked God into any of his actual published materials. I’m currently reading a 2004 book called “Einstein’s Vision” which actually extrapolates work done using his work as basis, to current – this I am doing both to learn, and to be aware of anything I’m claiming in my “visions” to be original when in fact it is already documented.

That’s the problem I’m currently facing with my own “theories of everything” which seek to span many chasms. I find that I come up with astounding conclusions that others have also found in the past; it seems to be a matter of focusing these combined messages from the physical and spirit worlds on a situation that needs it. Strangely, once one become sensitized, these messages come from many places, including unlikely sources. That doesn’t scare me, though, since a baby in a manger was a more significant religious authority than those who were in charge at the time and highly decorated.

Alan
 
Those who champion the Church’s ‘acceptance’ of evolution quite frankly have no idea what is at stake through such a silly compromise to please the materialistic world and appear ‘intelligent.’
A Vatican Observatory scientist does not represent the Church’s official stand on the issue. Don’t forget, many Church members defended geocentrism too! You can find out the Church’s view from the statement by John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger, which is a whole lot of vagueness and skipping around that it’s quite funny and a brilliant dodge at the same time.

Creationism has stood it’s ground against Evolution for a long time and was once the official position of the early Church leaders. This willingness to compromise with a completely unproven speculation known as macro-evolution and the belief in long ages is the great Apostasy of our time. Genesis and the first books of the Bible composing the Torah are written as literal history. The Hebrew does not indicate these for the purposes of ‘Figurative Language.’ God is not responsible for death and sufferring in the world. He sent His only Son to save us from that. The new Adam descended from the old Adam. Apologists have resolved all these ‘problems.’

The Word of God has been thoroughly defended. Consider that…

http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/0306.gif
http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/CWageofearth.gif
http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/CWevhappens.gif
http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/NOV2000CW.gif
 
Those who champion the Church’s ‘acceptance’ of evolution quite frankly have no idea what is at stake through such a silly compromise to please the materialistic world and appear ‘intelligent.’
A Vatican Observatory scientist does not represent the Church’s official stand on the issue. Don’t forget, many Church members defended geocentrism too! You can find out the Church’s view from the statement by John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger, which is a whole lot of vagueness and skipping around that it’s quite funny and a brilliant dodge at the same time.
Creationism has stood it’s ground against Evolution for a long time and was once the official position of the early Church leaders. This willingness to compromise with a completely unproven speculation known as macro-evolution and the belief in long ages is the great Apostasy of our time. Genesis and the first books of the Bible composing the Torah are written as literal history. The Hebrew does not indicate these for the purposes of ‘Figurative Language.’ God is not responsible for death and suffering in the world. He sent His only Son to save us from that. The new Adam descended from the old Adam. Apologists have resolved all these ‘problems.’
The Word of God has been thoroughly defended. Consider that…
Genesis was written as literal history? OK. So your telling me that God literally walked around in the garden of Eden? Your telling me that Noah literally took 2 of every species onto the ark? Your telling me that the first sin was literally eating an apple? That people literally lived for hundreds and hundreds of years? That the earth is literally shaped like a dome with a giant flood gate holding back the water in the sky? That the creation of different languages was a punishment from God? That angels and humans were really fornicating?

A lot of the stories in Genesis are forms of ancient Babylonian myths (which are far older than Genesis) that are tailored to explain truths about faith, not about history. The idea that Evolution is completely unproven is laughable. 99% of scientists believe in evolution. The idea that it is somehow a conspiracy to destroy the Word of God is also laughable. Faith and reason cannot contradict each other. That means, that one should not ignore reason. There is no contradiction between the Catholic faith and evolution. The Bible tells us that God created everything, not how God created everything. I recommend that you read Evolution and Creation: A Catholic Understanding by Rev. William Kramer.

Fundamentalism is a Protestant invention. Unfortunately, many people have confused ignorance with piety.

Yours in Christ,

St.BJLabre
 
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St.BJLabre:
Genesis was written as literal history? OK. So your telling me that God literally walked around in the garden of Eden? Your telling me that Noah literally took 2 of every species onto the ark? Your telling me that the first sin was literally eating an apple? That people literally lived for hundreds and hundreds of years? That the earth is literally shaped like a dome with a giant flood gate holding back the water in the sky? That the creation of different languages was a punishment from God? That angels and humans were really fornicating?

A lot of the stories in Genesis are forms of ancient Babylonian myths (which are far older than Genesis) that are tailored to explain truths about faith, not about history. The idea that Evolution is completely unproven is laughable. 99% of scientists believe in evolution. The idea that it is somehow a conspiracy to destroy the Word of God is also laughable. Faith and reason cannot contradict each other. That means, that one should not ignore reason. There is no contradiction between the Catholic faith and evolution. The Bible tells us that God created everything, not how God created everything. I recommend that you read Evolution and Creation: A Catholic Understanding by Rev. William Kramer.

Fundamentalism is a Protestant invention. Unfortunately, many people have confused ignorance with piety.

Yours in Christ,

St.BJLabre
I agree with much of what you say with two caveats-

1\ Although Genisis might have been written after and taken elements from older Babylonian myths it is light years (to put it mildly) more profound and true. No myth anywhere approaches Genesis in it’s theological depth and it’s positing of the One God, self sufficient, creating Everything from Nothing because it pleased Him to do so. There is no other “myth” anywhere that depicts the Fall in such psychological depth and profundity. The qualitative differences go on and on. Other creation myths seem silly in comparison. Not to mention the monumental, theologically shattering and unique name God gives himself in Exodus “I Am that Am”. Plato and Aristotle never approached this. It was, however, from the very beginning of the Church (St. Augustine) believed to be a figuratve, poetic account of the Truth, but True nevertheless.

2\ I wouldn’t accept evolution as settled fact no matter what percentage of scientists “believe in it” (interesting choice of words). It is in fact a theory in deep trouble…in a sense it’s a theory in desperate search of a fact. No one knows this more than evolutionists themselves, some of whom are now proposing things like “spontaneous evolution” (!) to make things fit. Also, it’s only in the Anglo Saxon scientific communities that an almost universal consensus on evolution exists. Scientists from many other nations are no where near as unanimous. A president of the French Academy of Sciences (no Catholic) resigned his position not too long ago in protest because as he said nothing about evolution has been proven yet it’s accepted as fact. Many others followed or agreed. Things have gotten even worse since! They can’t figure out how any animals eye could mutate whatsoever without rendering it completely blind for example…and there are just no damned bones! Lol. For ANY species! After all these years!!

That said…Maybe yes, maybe no. Fundamentalists in both camps hurt the search for truth.

Btw…what was a bat halfway through it’s evolutionary process?? Couldn’t see, couldn’t hear, couldn’t move…tough life!
 
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mike182d:
How is this in agreement with Pope Benedict XVI’s statement:

“We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary. There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ.”?

Evolution posits the “design” of man in the product of an organisms survival over billions years, rendering any intentions beyond the survival aspect as meaningless and influencial in its development.

Furthermore, was there death before sin? If there was no death before sin, how was there evolution?

It is an inconsistent position if you ask me.
Evolution does not make life meaningless. Meaning in life comes from your actions, the kind of person you are, what you do in relation to your fellow man. It isn’t the result of where you came from. Can you say that a Christian who does nothing helpful with his or her life has a meaningful life? Or, what about those Christians who do negative things with their life?

Meaning comes from what you do, not what you are.
 
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Liberalsaved:
Evolution does not make life meaningless. Meaning in life comes from your actions, the kind of person you are, what you do in relation to your fellow man. It isn’t the result of where you came from. Can you say that a Christian who does nothing helpful with his or her life has a meaningful life? Or, what about those Christians who do negative things with their life?

Meaning comes from what you do, not what you are.
Thank you. To me the fact that all or part of me has possible origins in “lower” forms of life is no more of an insult to human dignity to realize that we breathe the same air, drink the same water, eat much of the same food, and reproduce in precisely the same manner as dogs. Since we are humans with souls, we have the capability of making our lives in service to God – not that all the animals aren’t also by proxy through us, THE species which God considers “in His image.”

The statement by the Holy Father seems very tentative especially the part “if you ask me.” This, to me, indicates he is NOT holding himself up as an expert in this area, and is reacting on the basis of incomplete information. Based on what he has been told about evolution that is probably a very appropriate stance.

Not only that, but really, what is this “I” that is human? Does it or does it not include the myriad bacteria and other living organisms inside me without which I could not live? This “I” is more than just a single living being in an abyss of nothingness. Is the space inside my mouth part of me, or am I just borrowing it? What is a “voluntary” human action? Do I breathe, or am I “breathed?” In short, I don’t think anyone can give me a precise answer for where their neck ends and their head begins – although there is some notion that might matter differently depending on whether we ask a plastic surgeon or a painter.

Yesterday I was discussing this with a friend who believes in micro-evolution (adaptation) but not macro-evolution (production of a new species). It occurred to me (too late for our discussion) that whether we are of the same species is really a matter of human definition than anything else. I think we can agree that the DNA of an organism is pretty well linked to what species something is. Guess what? We decide arbitrarily on species based on their looks, their behavior, and whatever else has gone into taxonomy, and now we find that we are about 99% the same in DNA.

Do we even know enough about species to understand what it is that we – as scientists – even consider one species or the other? Scientists may still not be in agreement whether white tigers are a separate subspecies as others.

To say that macroevolution does not occur is to say that the universe has hard and fast delimiting mechanisms on species, that neatly fall in line according to current scientific theory, and that the universe nicely “obeys” that part of scientific theory but ignores the others. Keep in mind that taxonomy and the identification of species (a continuation of Adam’s work in the garden to name the animals) is all based on evolutionary theory, lest two breeds of dog be thought of as just as different as dust is from a human being. One can become the other, but not directly and such that is can be recreated in a lab.

If one species cannot create another, then the mule must not exist. Sure it’s sterile, but wanna place bets on whether we can get enough mules over the next million years that some could reproduce?

Therefore, a person who says there is microevolution but no macroevolution is borrowing from science for the purposes of disagreeing with it, and is IMO very likely confused. Maybe that’s all they’ve seen in “recorded history” but are we so arrogant to think that everything that has ever happened in the world was recorded in our history books? If one were to be consistent, one would have to abandon the idea of “species” altogether, and then such a person would have nothing to say at all.

Alan
 
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MarkR:
I2\ I wouldn’t accept evolution as settled fact no matter what percentage of scientists “believe in it” (interesting choice of words). It is in fact a theory in deep trouble…in a sense it’s a theory in desperate search of a fact.
I love how this keeps being stated as a fact. Maybe you should inform the scientific community that evolution is in deep trouble since they use it on a daily basis.
A president of the French Academy of Sciences (no Catholic) resigned his position not too long ago in protest because as he said nothing about evolution has been proven yet it’s accepted as fact. Many others followed or agreed.
A frenchman quit? That is a shocker. What was the guy’s name and when did he quit?
Things have gotten even worse since! They can’t figure out how any animals eye could mutate whatsoever without rendering it completely blind for example…and there are just no damned bones! Lol. For ANY species! After all these years!!
I thought you said that they were scientists. If they were, they wouldn’t be confused by the evolution of the eye. Regarding the statement about bones, I have no idea what you are refering to.

Peace

Tim
 
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