In first video message, Pope Francis stresses unity: 'We are all children of God' [CNA]

[LordHaveMercy]

hmm…I’m pretty sure it is in Lumen genius which is part of the dogmatic constitution of the Church.

Yes, it is a statement from the dogmatic constitution of the Church, and we are not required to give assent to it.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Yes, it is a statement from the dogmatic constitution of the Church, and we are not required to give assent to it.

really? You’re not required to submit to a Magisterial document that has the same authority of say Vatican I? I guess papal infallibility and the immaculate conception are up for debate as well. What is your source?

 

[LordHaveMercy]

really? You’re not required to submit to a Magisterial document that has the same authority of say Vatican I? I guess papal infallibility and the immaculate conception are up for debate as well. What is your source?

“Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding.” -Lumen Gentium

“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” -Pope Paul VI

It’s also important to understand that the Second Vatican Council is unique, and does not have the same authority as Vatican I (note: I did not say it has no authority, but different).

“The Second Vatican Council solemnly declared in its Constitution on the Church that all the teachings of the Council are in full continuity with the teachings of former councils. Moreover, let us not forget that the canons of the Council of Trent and of Vatican I are de fide, whereas none of the decrees of Vatican II are de fide; The Second Vatican Council was pastoral in nature. Cardinal Felici rightly stated that the Credo solemnly proclaimed by Pope Paul VI at the end of the Year of Faith is from a dogmatic point of view much more important than the entire Second Vatican Council. Thus, those who want to interpret certain passages in the documents of Vatican II as if they implicitly contradicted definitions of Vatican I or the Council of Trent should realize that even if their interpretation were right, the canons of the former councils would overrule these allegedly contradictory passages of Vatican II, because the former are de fide, the latter not.” -D von Hildebrand

 

[Jon_Mallory]

“Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding.” -Lumen Gentium

Thanks! Btw, I love Dr. Dietrich Von hildebrand.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Thanks!

:hug3:

 

[TMC]

Yes, it is a statement from the dogmatic constitution of the Church, and we are not required to give assent to it.

Well, you can dissent from it the same way some Catholics dissent from other teachings of the Church. No one is going to throw you on the rack for dissenting, or kick you out of the Church, but that is what the Church authoritatively teaches.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Well, you can dissent from it the same way some Catholics dissent from other teachings of the Church. No one is going to throw you on the rack for dissenting, or kick you out of the Church, but that is what the Church authoritatively teaches.

First of all, thank you for alerting me of your concern that I am dissenting from Church teaching. I don’t mean that sarcastically at all, I am honestly thankful. Your charity is clear in your post, I’m thankful to have a good Catholic brother/sister like you.

Please check out my post above though, where I shared this quote:

“Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding.” -Lumen Gentium

Lumen Gentium is where the statement that Christians and Muslims worship the same God is made, and the footnotes make it clear it is not a definitive statement. It’s not a matter of faith.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

First of all, thank you for alerting me of your concern that I am dissenting from Church teaching. I don’t mean that sarcastically at all, I am honestly thankful. Your charity is clear in your post, I’m thankful to have a good Catholic brother/sister like you.

Please check out my post above though, where I shared this quote:

“Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding.” -Lumen Gentium

Lumen Gentium is where the statement that Christians and Muslims worship the same God is made, and the footnotes make it clear it is not a definitive statement. It’s not a matter of faith.

hmmm, so the Church authoritatively declares that Muslims worship the same God as Christians but at the same time does not declare such a statement binding. Forgive me if this sounds impious, but that makes the “Muslims worship the same God statement” a weasel statement. It’s as if the Church wants to have its cake and eat it too. If pressed by conservatives who rightly wants to distinguish the Trinitarian God from the non-trinitarian muslim one, the Church gives itself a means of retreat. You don’t have to believe it, but at the same time, this is what we teach. Meanwhile, the Church can also court religious pluralists who see this statement as evidence that the Church is becoming more progressives. The Church is trying to hold liberals without dropping the conservatives altogether.

No wonder the Orthodox and conservative Protestants are so leery of ecumenism. What is the Church actually teaching? Is it just mere theological speculation in Lumen Gentium that Muslims worship the same God or is it authoritative?

 

[LordHaveMercy]

hmmm, so the Church authoritatively declares that Muslims worship the same God as Christians but at the same time does not declare such a statement binding. Forgive me if this sounds impious, but that makes the “Muslims worship the same God statement” a weasel statement. It’s as if the Church wants to have its cake and eat it too. If pressed by conservatives who rightly wants to distinguish the Trinitarian God from the non-trinitarian muslim one, the Church gives itself a means of retreat. You don’t have to believe it, but at the same time, this is what we teach. Meanwhile, the Church can also court religious pluralists who see this statement as evidence that the Church is becoming more progressives. The Church is trying to hold liberals without dropping the conservatives altogether.

No wonder the Orthodox and conservative Protestants are so leery of ecumenism. What is the Church actually teaching? Is it just mere theological speculation in Lumen Gentium that Muslims worship the same God or is it authoritative?

My understanding is that it is simply not authoritative. I wont speculate as to why Church leaders put strange non-authoritative statements in important documents.

On ecumenism, the safest route is to just say no. Haha.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

My understanding is that it is simply not authoritative**. I wont speculate as to why Church leaders put strange non-authoritative statements in important documents.**

On ecumenism, the safest route is to just say no. Haha.

Well, that answer won’t do at all. There’s a reason they put that statement in the document and if we wish to know the mind of the Church, then we should investigate the reason. I’m not comfortable with the mindset of some Catholics who say they believe something the Church teaches just because they have to while privately having misgivings about it. It’s intellectually dishonest. If the Church told you to jump off a cliff, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t do it

Not saying you believe because you clearly said you didn’t. confusion avoided.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

We cannot dispute that the Jews are God’s chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ, and ion Islam, God chooses whom he wills.

Did the same God make a mistake when he gave us both Judaism and Christianity, who is to say that he did not choose people to be Muslims also?

 

[zz912]

On this forum I constantly encounter Catholics that want a constant affirmation that, not only are they “right”, but that all other religions are “wrong.” They also often want affirmation that being Catholic will result in a greater reward, i.e. a better chance at salvation. I only rarely hear this from Catholics in real life, but it is common here.

Perhaps it would be more beneficial to listen to those you think are like this, instead of projecting your preconceived notions onto them?

If you got that impression from this thread, you’re not listening.

 

[Stephen_III]

It would appear that the Pope answers the implied outstanding question of whether (or not as the Protestant media would like it) he believes that it is by Christ through the sacrament of Baptism that we become: “children of God”.

This sermon was from this past Sunday and just a couple days after the video in question was put out.

catholicnewsagency.com/ne…is-asks-62327/

"Vatican City, Jan 10, 2016 / 05:35 am (CNA/EWTN News).- In his Sunday Angelus remarks Pope Francis stressed the importance of both knowing and celebrating the day of our baptism, since it is through the sacrament that we become children of God.

“I ask you a question: who among you remembers the day of their baptism?” the Pope asked during his Jan. 10 Angelus address, marking the feast of the Baptism of the Lord.

“Certainly, not everyone” knows the date, he noted, and urged those who don’t to go and look for it, if necessary asking parents, grandparents, godparents or even their parish for help.

Baptism is important to celebrate because “it’s the date of our rebirth as children of God,” Francis said, and gave those present “the homework” of finding the date during the coming week.

Before praying the Angelus Pope Francis baptized 26 babies – 13 girls and 13 boys – in the Sistine Chapel. He asked pilgrims gathered in St. Peter’s Square to offer special prayers for the infants before turning to the day’s Scripture passages.

In his reflections, the Pope recalled how when Jesus was baptized in the day’s Gospel, taken from Luke, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove.

With the Father’s words “This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased,” Jesus is consecrated and becomes the awaited Messiah, savior and liberator, he said.

He noted that in the event of Jesus’ baptism, the transition is made from John’s baptism with water, to the baptism of Jesus in “Spirit and fire.”

Francis said that the Holy Spirit is really the protagonist in the sacrament, since “he is the one who burns and destroys original sin, returning to baptism the beauty of divine grace.”

“It is he who liberates us from the dominion of darkness, which is sin, and brings us into the realm of light, which is love, truth and peace,” the Pope said, and encouraged attendees to think about special dignity they are elevated to in receiving baptism, namely, that of becoming children of God.

The “stupendous reality” of being children of God brings with it the responsibility to follow Jesus, who is an obedient servant, he said. It also reproduces within us the features of Jesus, primarily those of meekness, humility and tenderness.

Pope Francis noted that it “isn’t easy” to do this, “especially if, inside of ourselves, there is so much intolerance, arrogance and harshness.” However, with the strength that comes from the Holy Spirit, “it’s possible!”

He explained that the Holy Spirit “opens our heart to the truth, to the entire truth,” and guides us down the difficult yet fulfilling path of charity and solidarity with those around us…"

Pretty easy to see that his video comments were more in regards to the ontological or common creator sense of the use of the phrase…

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I’m going to say this to a lot of cradle Catholics who might not understand the frustration a convert might have, so I ask this question, “Did it matter I became Catholic?”

Because a lot of the grief I went through, and the family that felt like I was betraying our traditions, did it matter?

Every time I listen to the Pope, or a lot of Catholics on this forum I feel like I the sacraments don’t make a difference, being a Catholic doesn’t make a difference. I left a community for a Church that seems like it desperately trying be like those communities I left.

The Catechism and the Bible make it clear that only those who are baptized are children of God. We are all made in His image, but it’s through Jesus Christ we become children.

Hi SpeakInSilence

I’m a “cradle Catholic” and I have Catholic and non Catholic friends/family. I find that the Popes video message is in direct response to the teachings of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. In the video the Pope says “most of the planets inhabitants consider themselves believers”…this should lead to dialogue among religions". Jesus Christ Himself taught to be nice to others, to stand up to discrimination, to feed the poor. Jesus Christ spoke with Jews and polytheist Romans, so this work of reaching out to non Christians is the work of the Lord.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I have read through the first few pages of this thread and it appears that a few folks are viewing Pope Francis as being to diverse. Well the fact of the matter is that I can pull diversity quotes from Pope Benedict, as well as Pope John Paul II, for example,

John Paul II, address to the Catholic community of Ankara, Turkey, November 29, 1979

After quoting Nostra Aetate 3, as given above, he says: “My brothers, when I think of this spiritual heritage (Islam) and the value it has for man and for society, its capacity of offering, particularly in the young, guidance for life, filing the gap left by materialism, and giving a reliable foundation to social and juridical organization, I wonder if it is not urgent, precisely today when Christians and Muslims have entered a new period of history, to recognize and develop the spiritual bonds that unite us, in order to preserve and promote together for the benefit of all men, ‘peace, liberty, social justice and moral values’ as the Council calls upon us to do (Nostra Aetate 3).

“Faith in God, professed by the spiritual descendants of Abraham–Christians, Muslims and Jews–when it is lived sincerely, when it penetrates life, is a certain foundation of the dignity, brotherhood and freedom of men and a principle of uprightness for moral conduct and life in society. And there is more: as a result of this faith in God the Creator and transcendent, one man finds himself at the summit of creation. He was created, the Bible teaches, ‘in the image and likeness of God’ (Gn 1:27); for the Qur’an, the sacred book of the Muslims, although man is made of dust, ‘God breathed into him his spirit and endowed him with hearing, sight and heart,’ that is, intelligence (Surah 32.8).

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

That is Pope John Paul II saying that when Faith in God is professed sincerely by Jews, Muslims and or Christians…that it is* a principle of uprightness for moral conduct and life in society.* There have been other Popes, Catholic Bishops, Priests, and laymen who have throughout the years(even during the middle ages) said similar things in comparison to what Pope JPII said and what Pope Francis says today.

 

[RACJ]

Well, let’s assume that monsters are strained from the stew. Still, the question cries out, is it irrelevant whether we become part of an organized Christian church, or whether we become a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or wiccan, as long as we live according to some acceptable moral code? Would it matter if everyone in the world regarded Christ’s resurrection as a pleasant myth?
Christ would have died for billions who give him less reverence than Spider Man. To me, something is tragically wrong with that picture. uch:

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Well, let’s assume that monsters are strained from the stew. Still, the question cries out, is it irrelevant whether we become part of an organized Christian church, or whether we become a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or wiccan, as long as we live according to some acceptable moral code? Would it matter if everyone in the world regarded Christ’s resurrection as a pleasant myth?
Christ would have died for billions who give him less reverence than Spider Man. To me, something is tragically wrong with that picture. uch:

I hear you buddy loud and clear.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

who is to say that he did not choose people to be Muslims also?

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.” -God the Son

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Well, that answer won’t do at all. There’s a reason they put that statement in the document and if we wish to know the mind of the Church, then we should investigate the reason. I’m not comfortable with the mindset of some Catholics who say they believe something the Church teaches just because they have to while privately having misgivings about it. It’s intellectually dishonest. If the Church told you to jump off a cliff, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t do it

Not saying you believe because you clearly said you didn’t. confusion avoided.

I should clarify that the reason I won’t speculate is because I would be judging the interior motives of the council fathers in chosing to include a non-authoritative statement, with an often overlooked footnote that says it’s not binding, in a document as important as a Dogmatic Constituion, that will be read all over the world for centuries. A non-binding statement is not necessarily the mind of the Church, but potentially just the mind of whichever member(s) of our beloved hierarchy made the statement, and can be influenced by circumstances specific to that time and place.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Yes, beautiful. All of the natural virtues can be obtained through human reason, and all people are capable of growing in natural virtues if they perform naturally virtuous acts. However, natural virtue is not how we get to heaven. As you saw in my post, the specific notion I was responding to was “who is to say that he did not choose people to be Muslims also?” Surely the capacity for non-believers to practice natural virtues cannot be said to support the idea that we shouldn’t pray for Muslims to convert because maybe God chose for them to be Muslim and wants to keep it that way.

Sidebar: Isn’t it fun reading the word of God? Even in a friendly debate, it’s great.