In-laws baptized our children without permission

[masuwerte]

Formal defection from Catholicism is no longer allowed. They changed that a few years back, I think it was about 2010. There were some threads on here about that.

 

[Elizium23]

I’m not talking about suing the church. The church/priest are not responsible in any way for this. This is the grandparents. However, it is perfectly understandable why they would not want their child’s name put on the official records of an organization that they have severe moral disagreements with. The Mormon church still does baptisms for the dead, but they have been sued to remove names of posthumously baptized people from their membership records. An attorney may be able to get involved and without litigation or any sort of legal proceedings, convince the grandparents via a strongly worded letter that pursuing the baptism issue further will result in charges of harassment, or convince the priest that the consequences of dying on the hill of keeping the OP’s baby on baptismal records isn’t worth the fight. (It’s been my experience that many of the issues that lawyers sort our are solved with simple letterhead. People simply don’t want to fight an attorney who sounds committed to pursuing the issue if they have to.)

But the pastor of the parish is legally obligated to record the sacrament. It is not a question of “membership records” but merely a question of the fact that it has been performed. The pastor is not going to canonically have the authority to leave the record off without an OK from his bishop and possibly even from Rome. So your lawyers may need to be prepared for quite a long fight if they wish to pursue it. It is not a matter that can be settled locally.

And of course, this is a last resort. Talking to the grandparents, and then the priest, and then trying to file a formal defection should all come first.

As has already been pointed out, formal defections no longer have any legal effect (see Omnium in mentem, 2009) and furthermore, it is not possible for an adult to force an infant to formally defect against his/her will.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not talking about suing the church. The church/priest are not responsible in any way for this. This is the grandparents. However, it is perfectly understandable why they would not want their child’s name put on the official records of an organization that they have severe moral disagreements with. The Mormon church still does baptisms for the dead, but they have been sued to remove names of posthumously baptized people from their membership records. An attorney may be able to get involved and without litigation or any sort of legal proceedings, convince the grandparents via a strongly worded letter that pursuing the baptism issue further will result in charges of harassment, or convince the priest that the consequences of dying on the hill of keeping the OP’s baby on baptismal records isn’t worth the fight. (It’s been my experience that many of the issues that lawyers sort our are solved with simple letterhead. People simply don’t want to fight an attorney who sounds committed to pursuing the issue if they have to.)

You never know, of course, but it’s certainly an option he can try.

And of course, this is a last resort. Talking to the grandparents, and then the priest, and then trying to file a formal defection should all come first.

It is fairly rare (though not unknown) for it to be a good idea to pay an attorney to write a letter to your mother. Besides, the likelihood is that it will not occur to the grandparents to disclose their transgression to their pastor. If no one says anything, no record will be made. If the OP does not want this recorded, then, that is probably best accomplished by letting sleeping dogs lie, and saying nothing about it to the grandparents. In any event, no attorney in the world can undo a baptism.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It is fairly rare (though not unknown) for it to be a good idea to pay an attorney to write a letter to your mother. Besides, the likelihood is that it will not occur to the grandparents to disclose their transgression to their pastor. If no one says anything, no record will be made. If the OP does not want this recorded, then, that is probably best accomplished by letting sleeping dogs lie, and saying nothing about it to the grandparents. In any event, no attorney in the world can undo a baptism.

It’s fairly rare for it to be a good idea to commandeer the religious upbringing of your grandchildren. But that ship has sailed.

 

[BettyBoop416]

As has already been pointed out, formal defections no longer have any legal effect (see Omnium in mentem, 2009) and furthermore, it is not possible for an adult to force an infant to formally defect against his/her will.

Yet, it’s possible for an adult to force an infant to become a baptized member of the Church “against his/her will?”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

But the pastor of the parish is legally obligated to record the sacrament. It is not a question of “membership records” but merely a question of the fact that it has been performed. The pastor is not going to canonically have the authority to leave the record off without an OK from his bishop and possibly even from Rome. So your lawyers may need to be prepared for quite a long fight if they wish to pursue it. It is not a matter that can be settled locally.

As has already been pointed out, formal defections no longer have any legal effect (see Omnium in mentem, 2009) and furthermore, it is not possible for an adult to force an infant to formally defect against his/her will.

That’s too bad. But I would still fight tooth and nail to keep my child’s name off of church records. I don’t like that an organization that I’m so opposed to would try to use my child’s name and count them among their members. That’s not a fight I would give up. Win or lose, I would fight for my child.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yet, it’s possible for an adult to force an infant to become a baptized member of the Church “against his/her will?”

I saw the irony there too.

 

[EasterJoy]

It’s fairly rare for it to be a good idea to commandeer the religious upbringing of your grandchildren. But that ship has sailed.

My sense is that the OP is satisfied knowing that his in-laws did not have the blessing of the Church to do such a thing, that their pastor could have told them it was a violation of their trust. That he has Church law on his side is what he wanted to know; civil law is probably a heavier club than he or his wife were interested in wielding.

 

[EasterJoy]

That’s too bad. But I would still fight tooth and nail to keep my child’s name off of church records. I don’t like that an organization that I’m so opposed to would try to use my child’s name and count them among their members. That’s not a fight I would give up. Win or lose, I would fight for my child.

It may be easier to win the battle by staying out of the fight. If that is their objective, their best chance to keep this out of Church records is to keep quiet and hope the grandparents say nothing. That doesn’t make any difference concerning what happened–to record the event is more accurate, because the children were baptized on such and such a day in such a such parish, and that cannot be undone–but in practical terms the best way to avoid official recognition of the event is to say nothing about recording it and say nothing to the grandparent’s pastor. From my standpoint, I can’t advise that, but it is the truth. Making a big fuss and stirring the pot is more likely to get the event into the official record than to say nothing.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

I’m sorry… but there is a great qualitative difference between having water sprinkled on a child’s head, and performing surgery. If the Grandparents start carving off body parts, for whatever reason, that’s a different story altogether.
You have committed a category error here.

But that’s right that this is not about the religion, it’s about the control. Maybe I’m too easy going, but even in the first post, I felt like the real issue was ego.
These parents are gonna have a very hard time of it if they think they have complete control of their children, even as infants or toddlers. I bet those Grandparents know a thing or two about that. Oh wait…

If its better to sow family discord over something that caused no harm whatsoever, if its better to create tension between a mother and her parents, if its better to marginalise a set of Grandparents who obviously love their grandchildren, all in the name of who is in complete control of what - even when the children in question have no comprehension of the issue…

Knock yourselves out.

If its better or more constructive to let it go and save the righteous anger for something that really matters, forgive and move on.

In fact, I’m gonna take my own advice, and move on.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It may be easier to win the battle by staying out of the fight. If that is their objective, their best chance to keep this out of Church records is to keep quiet and hope the grandparents say nothing. That doesn’t make any difference concerning what happened–to record the event is more accurate, because the children were baptized on such and such a day in such a such parish, and that cannot be undone–but in practical terms the best way to avoid official recognition of the event is to say nothing about recording it and say nothing to the grandparent’s pastor. From my standpoint, I can’t advise that, but it is the truth. Making a big fuss and stirring the pot is more likely to get the event into the official record than to say nothing.

Oh, I completely agree. My suggestions were in case the grandparents were planning on registering. Frankly, if they didn’t know that it was wrong for them to do it, I can’t imagine that they know to register it.

 

[severus68]

Gosh! I am very surprised at the responses to the OP.

The Grandparents are believers. You are not.
The Grandparents believe your children need to be cleansed of the consequences of Original Sin. If the children die without that happening, the Grandparents believe the children will suffer some very negative consequences. To a believer this is not about things being easier later on if the children want to join a church. This is not mere paperwork. To the Grandparents, as believers, it is about life and death. Literally.

Out of love they baptised the children in what sounds like a small, surreptitious, private act.
They did this because they believe in the good of baptism. The children don’t even know what happened, they do not understand either the Grandparent’s beliefs or anything about what to be baptised means to any church or organisation.

The parents do not believe. The fact that their children are baptised should have NO importance to them at all, since the act is meaningless to them. They were not asked to participate, nor required to believe. They are not being asked to reaffirm the Catholic Church’s teaching on baptism, or to bring their children up as anything, much less Catholic.

Now the parents are furious and intend to jeopardise the relationship between the children and the Grandparents. This will have far reaching consequences on the well being of the children, and the family in general. Lack of connection and respect to others especially to those of older generations is a major problem in today’s society for both the young and the old. The children are being denied the love and warmth and wisdom of their Grandparents because of petulant anger on the parents part.

The near severing of relations between the children and the Grandparents will also deprive the Grandparents a natural and healthy connection to family. This can only serve to strain relations between the daughter (the mother) and her parents, and may reverberate to other siblings and family members.

The righteous indignation of the parents is causing a lot of hurt, pain and anger over what was only a loving act. The parent’s beliefs or non beliefs where not compromised either to themselves, nor to the children. As far as they are concerned, they only got their hair washed. No harm of any sort was perpetrated to anyone, except the parent’s egos. The children will grow up wondering what is wrong with Grandma and Grandpa. And it will foster a disrespect for the elderly.

The Grandparents are not telling anyone how to raise their kids. (Although when the going gets tough those estranged parents might do well to ask advice from the Grandparents who have done it all before…). They are not insisting the kids grow up in the Church. They sprinkled a little water on the heads of the very much loved children because they thought the children would benefit.

In my humble opinion, the Grandparents acted out of a deep abiding love for their Grandchildren. And I think the family should be grateful to have such loving people in their midst. Even if the execution was a bit unconventional.

I would say, talk to the Grandparents, express disappointment at the fact they did something they knew the parents would not approve of. But also express that it was done in love and concern. Tell them don’t do anything like that again, and let it go. Just let it go.

When you are their age you will realise that you made mistakes too without meaning to. You will not be a perfect parent, nor a perfect Grandparent.

FORGIVE THEM. Just like the many, many times they forgave you in growing up. They love you and they love your children. Be thankful for that as there are millions of other families out there that would kill to have such a loving family. I know whereof I speak.

You have all the time in the world to indoctrinate your children anyway you want. Having Grandparents that are faithful will not harm them. Creating tension, or separating them from their Grandparents will harm them.

Go get that Doctorate knowing that your children are in the best of all possible circumstances. Do a good job learning so you can cure others (restoring your patient’s families as you restored your own) instead of ruining your life and the relationship you have with your children because of the hassle and uncertainty of paid child care. This decision to estrange your family affects more people than you imagine.

Give your children the gift of their Grandparents. Give the Grandparents the gift of forgiveness, and understanding. Give yourself the gift of experienced, loving and free child care.

What if the grandparents had been Muslims? Would you feel the same?
The OP and his wife are not breaking off from the grandparents, the grandparents will not apologise for their serious breach of trust.

 

[severus68]

One cannot be saved without baptism. Yes it’s possible that we can’t limit God to the sacraments, but this idea that baptism of desire is the case of everyone not baptized will be saved through baptism of desire is an abuse of the term. The grandparents likely grew up prior to Vatican II when there was a strong emphasis that the grace received through baptism would lead the person to the Catholic faith later in life (Which does happen, btw). This is a conflict which still exists today if you talk to priests from traditional orders such as the FSSP.

On a side note, while I don’t agree with what the grandparents did, I have to say the parents ought to be ashamed of themselves for being so petty. As Catholics, it is your grave responsibility to raise your children in the Catholic faith, including having them baptized within the first few weeks of their birth. They neglected their duties towards their children, and the grandparents, concerned about the salvation of their grandchildren, took matters into their own hands. The parents have nobody to blame but themselves.

This kind of post is unlikely to bring the parents back to the Church and may just push them away further.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’m sorry… but there is a great qualitative difference between having water sprinkled on a child’s head, and performing surgery. If the Grandparents start carving off body parts, for whatever reason, that’s a different story altogether.
You have committed a category error here.

But that’s right that this is not about the religion, it’s about the control. Maybe I’m too easy going, but even in the first post, I felt like the real issue was ego.
These parents are gonna have a very hard time of it if they think they have complete control of their children, even as infants or toddlers. I bet those Grandparents know a thing or two about that. Oh wait…

If its better to sow family discord over something that caused no harm whatsoever, if its better to create tension between a mother and her parents, if its better to marginalise a set of Grandparents who obviously love their grandchildren, all in the name of who is in complete control of what - even when the children in question have no comprehension of the issue…

Knock yourselves out.

If its better or more constructive to let it go and save the righteous anger for something that really matters, forgive and move on.

In fact, I’m gonna take my own advice, and move on.

Sure. I’ll register your kid with planned parenthood. For the rest of your child’s life, PP will consider him to be one of them, and he will be counted in their numbers. If someday he should fail to live up to PP’s ideals, everyone involved with it will be encouraged to not go to his wedding or visit his home, regardless of how close they are.

And, if you as your son’s parent do your job well and impart your values, he’ll reject PP and everything they stand for, but yet, he’ll always be associated with them against his will.

What the grandparents did is inhumane.

 

[severus68]

I do not see that the issue here is that the children were baptized. The issue, to me, is primarily that the GPs did it WITHOUT CONSENT. ANYONE who tries to do something to my child secretly or without consent does not get to be around my child - whether that is baptizing my child surreptitiously, giving my child food I don’t want them to have, or anything else.

The GPs decision, while founded on good intentions, was: a) illicit, and b) a serious breach of trust. There is no founded hope that the children will be raised in the faith. A more appropriate approach is to pray for the conversion of the parents and the children, and to broach the topic with the children when they are adults. It was NOT the GPs place to make that decision. Ultimately, the issue here is that the GPs have overstepped their authority as GPs. They are NOT the parents of the children and NOT the ones who bear responsibility for their spiritual upbringing.

Yes.

 

[severus68]

I’m sorry… but there is a great qualitative difference between having water sprinkled on a child’s head, and performing surgery. If the Grandparents start carving off body parts, for whatever reason, that’s a different story altogether.
You have committed a category error here.

But that’s right that this is not about the religion, it’s about the control. Maybe I’m too easy going, but even in the first post, I felt like the real issue was ego.
These parents are gonna have a very hard time of it if they think they have complete control of their children, even as infants or toddlers. I bet those Grandparents know a thing or two about that. Oh wait…

If its better to sow family discord over something that caused no harm whatsoever, if its better to create tension between a mother and her parents, if its better to marginalise a set of Grandparents who obviously love their grandchildren, all in the name of who is in complete control of what - even when the children in question have no comprehension of the issue…

Knock yourselves out.

If its better or more constructive to let it go and save the righteous anger for something that really matters, forgive and move on.

In fact, I’m gonna take my own advice, and move on.

I assume then that you would have no problem with a relative converting your children to another religion, say Islam?

 

[David011]

My sense is that the OP is satisfied knowing that his in-laws did not have the blessing of the Church to do such a thing, that their pastor could have told them it was a violation of their trust. That he has Church law on his side is what he wanted to know; civil law is probably a heavier club than he or his wife were interested in wielding.

Yes, thank you. Although what they did certainly annoyed my wife and I, all we want is for them to back off. The reason we’re not completely angry with them is pretty simple; they’re old and catholic. We cannot change the way they think, this is something that has been instilled into them since birth and they really don’t see where they went wrong. They feel they did more good than bad. I can’t change that but I can certainly limit their “good” doings.

Neither is it about controlling our children, of course we can’t control them! But we can certainly control what others do to them and around them. Nonetheless, I thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut, even those who I did not agree with. It just let me take a peep into what might be going on in my in-laws’ heads. Which can diffidently come in handy with reasoning with them in the future!

 

[BettyBoop416]

I’m sorry… but there is a great qualitative difference between having water sprinkled on a child’s head, and performing surgery. If the Grandparents start carving off body parts, for whatever reason, that’s a different story altogether.
You have committed a category error here.

I have read on this forum that “baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul.” If you really believe that, then isn’t baptism a much bigger deal than “carving off body parts?” The point is, these parents did not want that for their child.

But that’s right that this is not about the religion, it’s about the control. Maybe I’m too easy going, but even in the first post, I felt like the real issue was ego.
These parents are gonna have a very hard time of it if they think they have complete control of their children, even as infants or toddlers. I bet those Grandparents know a thing or two about that.

Yeah…they know how to grab it when the child’s parents aren’t looking.

 

[BettyBoop416]

Sure. I’ll register your kid with planned parenthood. For the rest of your child’s life, PP will consider him to be one of them, and he will be counted in their numbers. If someday he should fail to live up to PP’s ideals, everyone involved with it will be encouraged to not go to his wedding or visit his home, regardless of how close they are.

And, if you as your son’s parent do your job well and impart your values, he’ll reject PP and everything they stand for, but yet, he’ll always be associated with them against his will.

 

[David011]

First off, OP, I commend you for handling this so well. My biggest shortcoming is my temper, and if I were in your position, my anger problem would be visible to everyone involved in this. I think it shows a lot of love, patience, and character that you are still willing to allow your in-laws to have as much access to your children as they want. I’m not sure that I’m that forgiving, at least not when faced with people who would be so willing to trample all over me as a parent when it comes to my own children, and then refuse to acknowledge that they were wrong.

This is a basic safety issue. I don’t care if they thought it was the right thing, they knew that you were against it. What else would they be willing to do behind your back believing that they know better than you do? Furthermore, the lack of respect that they have shown you and your wife is astounding.

In your position, my first concern would be keeping the child’s grandparents at bay. My second concern would be keeping my child’s name off of church documents. If they intend to report the baptism and you don’t want them to, talk to them, then talk to the priest, and then talk to an attorney. I really don’t know if you have legal recourse, but it can’t hurt to look into it. I can’t imagine that its just ok for a religious organization to count your son among them against the wishes of the parents. If nothing else, a strongly worded letter from a lawyer may do the trick. I did a quick google, it looks like there is a way to formally defect from the church. I don’t know if you can do that on behalf of your minor son, but if all else fails, it might be worth a shot.

I am so sorry this happened to you. What a blatant violation of your family.

Thank you very much! I’ve had to deal with them since the moment I asked my wife on our first date so I guess you could say I’m used to it. But I certainly have my limits, especially when it comes to my children. This baptism doesn’t mean much to us in regards to religion, we’re just trying to get a point across to their grandparents. I don’t mind their names going on church documents, my wife and I are on their too, this will just add to their number of non practicing Catholics in their books. Of course we won’t be taking any steps to make it more official either. Also I’m not sure my in-laws are aware of having to record it if done illicitly.

By the way, I’ll just go ahead and say, from all the crazy conservative points of views on all these threads and forums, you’re one of the few people I always agree with.