In-laws baptized our children without permission

[josh987654321]

There are ways to draw people into the faith, but Our Lord himself was very clear on many occasions that nagging is not it.

St. Paul, too, was content to plant the seed and then let go:

I agree. I’m not advocating nagging in the least, but I’m also not advocating doing nothing and I also completely agree with the concept of planting the seed and shaking the dust from your feet. But I believe the problem lies in whether or not the seed has been sacttered properly or not, if the seed is poorly sacttered than there are many more that will land on rocky ground, if the message is poorly preached, than there are many more who will reject it.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[David011]

Good point. Being “gentle but firm” hasn’t exactly gone well for you.

I’m a pretty shy, timid person. I try to be as kind as possible. But at the point you’re at, my temper would be roaring and I wouldn’t be able to hold back anymore.

I feel very bad for you and I hope that my in-laws don’t start behaving like this when I have kids.

Can I ask, were you married in the church? If not, how did they take that? It seems to me that some of these issues should have been hashed out already. At least with us, announcing our plans to marry opened up the door for a lot of difficult conversations that no one wanted to have.

No we did not marry in the church. At first they were in denial about it, then angry and threatened not to attend, to which we simply responded ok, fine. It’s not like we can make them nor do we want someone who didn’t to be at our wedding, at our wedding. My wife is their only child so of course they couldn’t resist and ended up coming. My parents are what people here would call “cafeteria Catholics”. They have supported and encouraged us through pretty much our whole marriage since we married right out of college and were broke as heck so they offered to pay for the wedding.

We don’t mind talking and discussing things with my in-laws but whatever we say in regards to not being Catholic just goes in one ear and out the other. Most of what we say falls along the lines of “please respect our decisions we KNOW what INFORMED decision we’re making”. But still no use. Now after this whole baptism thing, we’re trying our hardest to find reasons not to be angry with them but they are making things very difficult.

 

[josh987654321]

To pray for their children and grandchildren I should think.

I agree, but I would also tell them “yes, pray to God, but row for the shore too.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[mek42]

Is not quiet, graceful obedience the greatest witness?

It sounds like the OP’s in-laws are more interested in controlling the OP’s family than in honest, effective evangelism. My grandparent tried to buy me to confirm with money when my grandfather died. I refused the cash and am now a lapsed, unconfirmed cradle Catholic. Faith is something that cannot be externally imposed. One can go through the motions, and utter the party line when oppressed, but that is like getting ketchup when you asked for mustard on your burger.

The problem is likely that they do not believe that their efforts are turning the OP and family further from the Church.

 

[David011]

The problems exist with the grand parents David, because of YOUR problems with the church. Perhaps this is an area you may care to discuss via another thread.
Seeking submissions on how to frustrate the grand parents further is poor form, when it is obvious they love you all very much.

This thread was a good one and very informative, however based on your intent; you are now asking for the wrong advice from a Catholic forum IMO.

I wonder what we would be advising the grand parents if they were on here with their side of the story?

We’re not looking to frustrate them, if anything we want to make their lives easier without compromising our own beliefs. I don’t see how this would be wrong advice to ask because all their nagging (unless you believe this is the proper way to evangelize) is honestly just making us resent Catholicism more. I think it’s great to ask a catholic because perhaps you would have ways to reach them that I don’t. I’m not asking how to get them to stop “evangelizing” I want them to stop nagging and butting in. There is definitely a difference between the two.

Although I think you might be right on the thread comment. I’m not aware of the rules regarding a question that’s off the subject. Do I need a new thread?

 

[Rau]

We’re not looking to frustrate them, if anything we want to make their lives easier without compromising our own beliefs.

Just in passing, keep in mind that “your own beliefs” might be self-made and thus may not be owed a debt of loyalty!

 

[David011]

Just in passing, keep in mind that “your own beliefs” might be self-made and thus may not be owed a debt of loyalty!

To clarify, I meant without actually becoming catholic. And regardless of loyalty, I still think they deserve respect.

 

[EasterJoy]

To clarify, I meant without actually becoming catholic. And regardless of loyalty, I still think they deserve respect.

Well, do realize that this is a real area of difficulty: that is, how to balance the other person’s right to conscience without pretending relativism. We can’t say it doesn’t matter to us what you believe, because we can’t practice our faith without caring. We can decide The only thing to do is to leave you alone about it, but we can’t stop caring about you.

The problem that Catholics have with non-believers is not unlike the problem democracies have in accommodating politician parties that are anti-democratic in philosophy. You have to allow freedom of thought and freedom of association, and yet some lines of political thinking are incompatible with your whole world view. Not a great analogy, but I think you see what I mean. This is fundamentally different than an inconsequential difference of opinion.

Forbearance all around is the only way it can work. It’s the reality of the situation.

 

[HandyAndy]

David, you mentioned before that your decision to move away from the church was an “INFORMED” decision. I trust that this is not the case and perhaps you simply believe you are truly informed. Despite the exterior warts of the church which are rightly exposed in the media…all of those warts are man made. They are not of God.
God doesn’t make mistakes and this is the church he established, with all of its sacraments, so that it might act as a conduit where he comes to us through them. A truly present Christ in the Eucharist. In every Catholic Church and in every tabernacle. He waits there every hour of every day for his children…For a heart felt visit or a single sign of their love for him…He waits. He is real and he is present.

I understand the uninformed and why they find it easy to mock the church and find no interest in it. But to know …your decision carries much weight.

If you are seeking to lesson the nagging…I would suggest you give them small wins with a preface that if they don’t mention what ever again…you’ll do that small thing that brings them piece.
Understand…you knew they had issues before the wedding. It was always going to be give and take for it to work.

 

[EasterJoy]

David, you mentioned before that your decision to move away from the church was an “INFORMED” decision. I trust that this is not the case and perhaps you simply believe you are truly informed. Despite the exterior warts of the church which are rightly exposed in the media…all of those warts are man made. They are not of God.
God doesn’t make mistakes and this is the church he established, with all of its sacraments, so that it might act as a conduit where he comes to us through them. A truly present Christ in the Eucharist. In every Catholic Church and in every tabernacle. He waits there every hour of every day for his children…For a heart felt visit or a single sign of their love for him…He waits. He is real and he is present.

I understand the uninformed and why they find it easy to mock the church and find no interest in it. But to know …your decision carries much weight.

If you are seeking to lesson the nagging…I would suggest you give them small wins with a preface that if they don’t mention what ever again…you’ll do that small thing that brings them piece.
Understand…you knew they had issues before the wedding. It was always going to be give and take for it to work.

Having said that, if you lose your faith, intellect alone will not bring it back. There have been experts on comparative religion who have no faith to call their own; even among the people who heard and saw the Lord in person, some people saw and heard and believed, and others standing next to them, having their ears hear the same words and their eyes see the same thoughts, did not believe. There have been intellectual giants among the saints, yes, but it was not intellect that made their faith. It was their faith that made their intellect.

 

[David011]

If you are seeking to lesson the nagging…I would suggest you give them small wins with a preface that if they don’t mention what ever again…you’ll do that small thing that brings them piece.
Understand…you knew they had issues before the wedding. It was always going to be give and take for it to work.

They have been incessantly asking us to go to mass with them and we did in hopes of it stopping but that just gives them more “hope”. I don’t know how rewarding them will make them stop.

 

[HandyAndy]

Don’t forget to add the preface. If they stop the nagging…you’ll attend mass with them from time to time, or what ever. If they continue to nag…you will stop altogether. Ask them for a holy card from time to time or a medal, or ask where you can get some Rosary beads. If they start to nag…fain a lack of interest & hand them back. They must see that the nagging drives you away…and they are rewarded when they stop. Basic human nature. The reward will dictate the behavior and reinforce it. You must teach them a method of dealing with these issues that yield a positive response for them, in order to change their behavior. The harder you pull away…the harder their endeavors will become.
You will create the behavior you want with a positive response, rather then a negative one.

Just like me, your grand parents and others on this forum…the tone shifts when we sense their is hope. They will replace the nagging…and cling to the hope.

 

[MJJean]

Don’t forget to add the preface. If they stop the nagging…you’ll attend mass with them from time to time, or what ever. If they continue to nag…you will stop altogether. Ask them for a holy card from time to time or a medal, or ask where you can get some Rosary beads. If they start to nag…fain a lack of interest & hand them back. They must see that the nagging drives you away…and they are rewarded when they stop. Basic human nature. The reward will dictate the behavior and reinforce it. You must teach them a method of dealing with these issues that yield a positive response for them, in order to change their behavior. The harder you pull away…the harder their endeavors will become.
You will create the behavior you want with a positive response, rather then a negative one.

Just like me, your grand parents and others on this forum…the tone shifts when we sense their is hope. They will replace the nagging…and cling to the hope.

Asking for prayer cards, attending Mass, or asking about rosaries will only give the parents more false hope. I’d be tempted to treat them the same way I learned to treat a mouthing or jumping puppy. (No insult intended, I am the Crazy Dog Lady)

If you have a pup jumping or mouthing you and you give it any attention at all it will continue because it has learned that those behaviors get a reaction. If you completely ignore the pup and then resume giving it attention when it is behaving the pup quickly learns that good behavior is the only way to get attention.

Translating that to parents, I’d simply calmly and quietly get up, gather my things, kiss them on the cheek or something, and leave each and every time they began to nag about religion. Eventually, they’ll figure it out

 

[EasterJoy]

Asking for prayer cards, attending Mass, or asking about rosaries will only give the parents more false hope. I’d be tempted to treat them the same way I learned to treat a mouthing or jumping puppy. (No insult intended, I am the Crazy Dog Lady)

If you have a pup jumping or mouthing you and you give it any attention at all it will continue because it has learned that those behaviors get a reaction. If you completely ignore the pup and then resume giving it attention when it is behaving the pup quickly learns that good behavior is the only way to get attention.

Translating that to parents, I’d simply calmly and quietly get up, gather my things, kiss them on the cheek or something, and leave each and every time they began to nag about religion. Eventually, they’ll figure it out

Let’s not forget which side we are on, here, and let us hope the grandparents’ hopes are eventually proven true, and not false. The best outcome would be to have these sheep back in the fold! They cannot be had back in by force, though, so it hurts nothing to teach them how to resist attempts to strong-arm them back. (I’m hoping that this is only a clarification of what you were in fact saying.)

If the OP or his wife is feeling resentful of the invitations, then they ought to gently turn the invitations away, and ask that the would-be evangelists devote themselves to prayer, instead. If not, then by all means of course ask for things which are offered and hold such interest. IOW, insist that they be appropriate in their efforts, not pushing where Our Lord bid us not to push.

Be ready, too, OP, for your children to have an interest in their grandparent’s religion in any event. This is as it usually is, whether the child has grandparents who are Catholic or belong to some other faith practiced by the family for generations before the parents decided against it.

That is only natural! By doing this, the grandchildren kill two birds with one stone, exerting an identity both separate from their parents and yet connected to their ancestors! Even if the grandmother never said a word to entice her grandchildren to her religion, they will want to know about it if she has ways as a grandmother (or their grandfather has ways as a grandfather) that gain their affection.

My sense of the OP and his wife, though, is that they understand very well that their children might have an interest in Catholicism, and don’t hold unrealistic hopes that the children will not choose it on their own. They simply want to maintain their parental rights in the meantime.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Don’t forget to add the preface. If they stop the nagging…you’ll attend mass with them from time to time, or what ever. If they continue to nag…you will stop altogether. Ask them for a holy card from time to time or a medal, or ask where you can get some Rosary beads. If they start to nag…fain a lack of interest & hand them back. They must see that the nagging drives you away…and they are rewarded when they stop. Basic human nature. The reward will dictate the behavior and reinforce it. You must teach them a method of dealing with these issues that yield a positive response for them, in order to change their behavior. The harder you pull away…the harder their endeavors will become.
You will create the behavior you want with a positive response, rather then a negative one.

Just like me, your grand parents and others on this forum…the tone shifts when we sense their is hope. They will replace the nagging…and cling to the hope.

I wouldn’t do this. It’s cruel to toy with the in-laws emotions like that. Giving them false hope to make them happy and then yanking it away when they inevitably cross a line is a cruel and unnecessary game. Especially since giving them those glimmers of hope will be what motivates them to cross a line that they don’t know is there.

Furthermore, the OP isn’t obligated to fake an interest in religion to keep his in-laws from nagging. They need to be adult enough to respect basic boundaries.

 

[MJJean]

Let’s not forget which side we are on, here, and let us hope the grandparents’ hopes are eventually proven true, and not false. The best outcome would be to have these sheep back in the fold! They cannot be had back in by force, though, so it hurts nothing to teach them how to resist attempts to strong-arm them back. (I’m hoping that this is only a clarification of what you were in fact saying.)

Of course the absolute best outcome from the Catholic point of view is the parents come back to the Church and bring the kids. And, of course, they will be less likely to come back if they are nagged.

My husband was away for over 20 years. He came back and brought me and the kids with him. The oldest chose to be Baptist, but since she was not Christian at all before we started taking her to Mass I am not complaining. Our middle child is being Baptized and Confirmed this Easter Vigil. The youngest is a die hard Atheist, but we’re setting and example and praying for him.

Now, why did my husband come back to the Church with us trailing behind? Because not a single person nagged him! His father set an example by never missing Sunday or Holy Day Masses and when my husband felt a call to spirituality in general and Catholicism in particular he did not feel a need to dig in and refuse it out of sheer stubbornness brought on by parental nagging.

 

[EasterJoy]

I wouldn’t do this. It’s cruel to toy with the in-laws emotions like that. Giving them false hope to make them happy and then yanking it away when they inevitably cross a line is a cruel and unnecessary game. Especially since giving them those glimmers of hope will be what motivates them to cross a line that they don’t know is there.

Furthermore, the OP isn’t obligated to fake an interest in religion to keep his in-laws from nagging. They need to be adult enough to respect basic boundaries.

Yes. Besides, my impression of the OP is that he is a straight-forward person who is not interested in placating his in-laws with false pretenses. He’ll do much better by guiding them to continue being devout Catholics (which they will do in any event), but in a way that lets him, his wife, and their family follow their own sense of the truth in their own time.

To answer his original question, such a request is totally in keeping with the Church’s understanding of how evangelism happens, even evangelization of your own family.

 

[HandyAndy]

If you completely ignore the pup and then resume giving it attention when it is behaving the pup quickly learns that good behavior is the only way to get attention.

So how did you reward the puppy so as to get the result you were after? That’s right. “Resume giving it attention” or in other words…it receives a reward for good behavior.

Because we’re not dealing directly with the grand parents here…David is the only person who can influence the grand parents behavior. The grand parents love his family very much. They are not prepared to see them lost. The goal here is to change the grand parents approach to what they are trying to achieve.

In the writings of Catalina Rivas, which carry the Imprimatur of the church…Jesus states that the battle for souls has begun. His sacrifice on the cross has been lost on his children. His love for them rejected and in doing so…he suffers the trails of his persecution all over again. Whilst he hung on the cross for all of mankind…he recounts how the very people he had come to save had deserted him. Roman soldiers laughed and gambled at the foot of the cross.
Our Blessed Mother has stated that the Eucharist is the new Noah’s Ark and time is short.

The writings of Catalina Rivas are for the most part…well…heart felt. Then there are others that are heavy, and in fact when we say “He will come in glory to judge the living and the dead” …it may be closer then many of us realistically would like to think.

When he says that time is short…I’m hoping that it is measured in his time and not ours.

How many of us would be truly ready???

A good read David…but for your own sanity…keep them away from your grand parents.

 

[David011]

Asking for prayer cards, attending Mass, or asking about rosaries will only give the parents more false hope. I’d be tempted to treat them the same way I learned to treat a mouthing or jumping puppy. (No insult intended, I am the Crazy Dog Lady)

If you have a pup jumping or mouthing you and you give it any attention at all it will continue because it has learned that those behaviors get a reaction. If you completely ignore the pup and then resume giving it attention when it is behaving the pup quickly learns that good behavior is the only way to get attention.

Translating that to parents, I’d simply calmly and quietly get up, gather my things, kiss them on the cheek or something, and leave each and every time they began to nag about religion. Eventually, they’ll figure it out

I agree. I don’t feel comfortable pretending I’m interested in a religion I’m not and I feel like I would just be dangling false hope in front of my in-laws. I really don’t see how it would be less frustrating for them to believe I’m taking interest and then just pulling that away. Also, I feel like I wouldn’t be respecting their faith if I’m pretending to take objects that really don’t mean much to me. As much as I wish I could just get them to stop by just asking them, I think some space is going to have to be necessary.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I agree. I don’t feel comfortable pretending I’m interested in a religion I’m not and I feel like I would just be dangling false hope in front of my in-laws. I really don’t see how it would be less frustrating for them to believe I’m taking interest and then just pulling that away. Also, I feel like I wouldn’t be respecting their faith if I’m pretending to take objects that really don’t mean much to me. As much as I wish I could just get them to stop by just asking them, I think some space is going to have to be necessary.

Taking religious items is a dangerous path to go down. My MIL gave my husband a holy packet, two scapulars, and a ton of holy medals before we even met. To this day they are all tucked away safely in my jewelry box because every 6 months or so when she visits she gets a very concerned look on her face and asks if we still have them. I show them to her to prove that we still have them and they are still in good condition.

It isn’t an annoyance so much as a quirk. That said, we don’t continue to accept things or I’d have a trunk of religious items that I couldn’t get rid of before I turn 35.