in love with a muslim

[pro_universal]

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:

Going through collections of work that are literally tens of thousands of pages long, and grabbing out discrete sentences is a completely useless method of analyzing text. What matters for determining what Muslims believe isn’t what you think it means, it’s is how these texts are interpreted by Muslims. So your method of searching vast collections and then presenting a single sentence (with no analysis or context) doesn’t really get us anywhere.

I suppose you mean that your evidence is this “Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife.”

Well, I did quote that in my post.

I take the point that she can have a pre-nuptial contract specifying this; that she will not have any co-wives for her husband. However, if she’s not taken up that as a pre-nup, then she can not refuse. It’s not an absolute. I guess you didn’t want to state that. She is not an equal partner in the relationship. She can’t ‘veto’ this if she’s not already done a contract.

Read the article. Yes she can. Mutual consent means mutual consent, as is made clear if you read the article.

Divorce rips families apart.
A death of a spouse can do that.
A child running away from home.
Which of these also deserve a punishment?

Well, considering that punishment only attaches to those who act willfully and who are of age to be held responsible, I’d say your examples of children and death are irrelevant.

Maybe you should deal with the case at hand, destruction of families through infidelity, instead of comparing that to totally different situations. Do you or do you not think that choosing to destroy a family through infidelity is something that should be punished?

The facts say he’s allowed to beat her within certain limits; ie. using his hand. She’s also to be cursed if she doesn’t give him sex when he desires it; something you’ve decided to skip past a second time.

No they do not. Again, read the article. I don’t see how it could be any more clear on this point.

No, you just cited a site that says beating other than use by the hand is expressly forbidden.

I quoted the site directly on this point for you, so no, this is not true. You clearly have not read the article. Reading the articles that Muslims write is key to understanding what Muslims believe.

Your next list of accusations are new, but a quick search of Islamic rulings on these subjects would’ve shown you that your accusations are completely wrong, in addition to being apparently an attempt to levy new charges now that your old ones were debunked:

Other abuses are allowed upon a woman, such as female genital mutilation. And again Muhammad ‘moderates’ that, by saying don’t ‘cut’ too ‘severely’.

You might have read recently in the Australian press about the Al Azhar ruling: theage.com.au/news/world/muslim-scholars-rule-female-circumcision-unislamic/2006/11/24/1163871589618.html

A Egyptian conference of Muslim scholars from around the world declared female circumcision to be contrary to Islam and an attack on women, and called today for those who practice it to be punished.

You’re allowed to curb the practice of her faith (if she’s Christian). There’s heaps of things that you can do to hinder her.

Wrong again. The wife is absolutely guaranteed the right to practice her religion in Islam. Next time you give an accusation like this, try to provide an Islamic source that supports the claim.

You would be allowed to kill your wife if she becomes an apostate.

No you wouldn’t. The death penalty for apostasy is absolutely forbidden in all circumstances except for that of treason against an Islamic state; ie, if someone becomes an apostate in order to spread chaos or rebellion and violence. On an individual basis, there is no such penalty. That has been explained repeatedly on this very forum.

You have segregated worship

As do many Jewish communities and traditional Christian communities. What’s wrong with it?

Moslems also think a woman is less intelligent than a male

Again, totally false: qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1497&CATE=89#Advice%20for

Read the ruling on the status of wives…they even enter Heaven before their husbands in Islamic teaching.

Overall, I really find this post just more of the same…you’re attacking a religion without bothering to find out what it teaches, and moreso, you’re choosing to focus on issues which are most appropriately and effectively dealt with in your own community first.

 

[pro_universal]

You went on about Australia this, Australia that, and then said that I should go back to my own countrymen and stop them abusing people. My countrymen INCLUDE MOSLEMS, so you missed that point.

You missed the point. You should address these problems in a way where you reach those closest to you: ie, reach people on the level of their being Australian or Christian. You aren’t reaching anyone by bashing Islam; you’re just alienating Muslims because it’s obvious to them that you don’t know anything about their religion.

And, I note that your ‘scholar’ is but one opinion. Most interpret it as ‘beat’.

This is truly odd. First of all, the fatwa was comprehensive, ie, based on an interpretation of a broad range of texts and rulings in Islam. Second, the article you just posted says specifically:

To those of us who know Islam and the Quran, violence against women is so antithetical to the teachings of Islam that we look at those who use our religion against us as misguided, misinformed or malevolent.

Your claim that this article somehow supports interpreting Islam as permitting a beating is just baffling. Read the title of the piece, even.

Look what happens when a woman goes to Muhammad and claims she was beaten. Is the husband admonished?
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:

Again, cruising thousands of pages of stories from texts that are of varying quality and with lots of different stories is worthless as a method of figuring out what Islam teaches. All this practice of yours tells you is what your own extremely limited understanding of Islamic texts is; it does not tell you what Muslims think their religion requires.

Check out this article
memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area%20=sr&ID=SR2704

I don’t waste my time reading anything at MEMRI. It’s a propaganda organization created and run by Israeli intelligence officials, (that’s not an exaggeration or a rumor or hyperbole-that’s a black and white factual account of the organization) and its distortions and mistranslations are well documented. I don’t think you can find a single Arabic speaker who thinks MEMRI is a good source to go to for information on the Arabic world. Here’s an article about why you shouldn’t waste your time with MEMRI: guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

And another:

sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Issues_of_reliability_and_veracity

Citing MEMRI on this thread is the equivalent of citing Hamas pamphlets for an authoritative account of what Jewish people really believe.

 

[jonfan]

You missed the point. You should address these problems in a way where you reach those closest to you: ie, reach people on the level of their being Australian or Christian. You aren’t reaching anyone by bashing Islam; you’re just alienating Muslims because it’s obvious to them that you don’t know anything about their religion.

This is truly odd. First of all, the fatwa was comprehensive, ie, based on an interpretation of a broad range of texts and rulings in Islam. Second, the article you just posted says specifically:

Your claim that this article somehow supports interpreting Islam as permitting a beating is just baffling. Read the title of the piece, even.

Again, cruising thousands of pages of stories from texts that are of varying quality and with lots of different stories is worthless as a method of figuring out what Islam teaches. All this practice of yours tells you is what your own extremely limited understanding of Islamic texts is; it does not tell you what Muslims think their religion requires.

I don’t waste my time reading anything at MEMRI. It’s a propaganda organization created and run by Israeli intelligence officials, (that’s not an exaggeration or a rumor or hyperbole-that’s a black and white factual account of the organization) and its distortions and mistranslations are well documented. I don’t think you can find a single Arabic speaker who thinks MEMRI is a good source to go to for information on the Arabic world. Here’s an article about why you shouldn’t waste your time with MEMRI: guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

And another:

sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Issues_of_reliability_and_veracity

Citing MEMRI on this thread is the equivalent of citing Hamas pamphlets for an authoritative account of what Jewish people really believe.

There is nothing wrong with MEMRI Pro. They speak truth. It is not an equivilant to Hamas. They point out the anti-semetism that is exposed on Hamas TV. MEMRI is a good organization.

 

[pro_universal]

There is nothing wrong with MEMRI Pro. They speak truth. It is not an equivilant to Hamas. They point out the anti-semetism that is exposed on Hamas TV. MEMRI is a good organization.

You need to read the articles I linked.

MEMRI is not a “truth seeking” organization. It is a propaganda tool founded by Israeli intelligence officers, designed to present a distorted view of Arab media.

The Israeli intelligence officials’ organization does two things that are wrong:

1. They selectively report only articles that give the impression that all Arab media is rabid and bad

and

1. They consistently mistranslate academic and editorial pieces in Arabic in order to make the work appear anti-semitic when it is not.

There are plenty of sources you can read to confirm this point. Ask yourself this: If you wouldn’t believe what Hamas says about Jewish beliefs, why would you believe what Israeli intelligence officers (who have been exposed in the Israeli press in the past for planting false articles as part of a “psychological warfare” strategy in the Arab-Israeli conflict) have to say?

 

[Montalban]

"Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different. "
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1105&ln=eng

pro_universal:

Going through collections of work that are literally tens of thousands of pages long, and grabbing out discrete sentences is a completely useless method of analysing text.

Then why do you do that?
You have cited a Moslem apologist site that says that the interpretation is to tap lightly. I have cited evidence from your scriptures (Hadith) that show Muhammad allowed beating.
Sure, he said it’s better if you don’t. But that’s just logical. The ‘best’ generals are often the ones loved by their men, rather than those that drive their men on by their iron will. However this does not mean that some are in fact allowed to do that. So it is with your wives. The ‘best’ husbands can get their wives to obey without resorting to violence; probably reminding them that al-lah created them inferior, and that they will be cursed if they are defiant.

However Moslem men are allowed to hit their wives; limited to their hands.

Sure, you can interpret this as ‘tap lightly’, but as I noted, most don’t. Why? Because it’s totally impractical. Islam sees itself as a practical religion.The purpose of the admonishment is to get compliance. It would be quite pointless a man just standing there tapping away lightly on her arm to get her to do what he wants her to do. How’s she supposed to ‘submit’ by him doing that? It’s you advocating that instead of Islam being brutal, it’s ridiculous!

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal:

What matters for determining what Muslims believe isn’t what you think it means, it’s is how these texts are interpreted by Muslims. So your method of searching vast collections and then presenting a single sentence (with no analysis or context) doesn’t really get us anywhere.

And I addressed this by quoting Moslems who state that most Moslems interpret it the way I present it.

pro_universal:

Well, I did quote that in my post.

Indeed, and as noted you didn’t give context. Only if she’s made a pre-nup contract can she do that. It’s not a universal right to ‘veto’, as you presented it.

pro_universal:

Maybe you should deal with the case at hand, destruction of families through infidelity, instead of comparing that to totally different situations. Do you or do you not think that choosing to destroy a family through infidelity is something that should be punished?

You argued for something that rips families apart. Divorce does that. Even your faith allows it.

 

[Montalban]

Montalban:

Other abuses are allowed upon a woman, such as female genital mutilation. And again Muhammad ‘moderates’ that, by saying don’t ‘cut’ too ‘severely’.

pro_universal:

You might have read recently in the Australian press about the Al Azhar ruling: theage.com.au/news/world/…871589618.html

"The final statement of the conference was: “The conference appeals to all Muslims to stop practicing this habit, according to Islam’s teachings which prohibit inflicting harm on any human being.”

This is good news, to a point. It will take more than one edict to outlaw the practice in Islam, which appears to be more prevalent amongst Sunni Muslims. But Al-Azhar is the highest Sunni body, and in Egypt and neighbouring countries, the decision will be taken seriously by some Muslims."

westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003406.html

Great, an ‘opinion’ given not binding on all Moslems that was sponsored by a secularist human rights group who like you mis-represent ‘facts’. They state that female genital mutilation is outside of the Koran. True, but the practice of it is not dependent on Koranic omission, but the words Muhammad in the Hadith, who says “Don’t cut too severely”. To me this is as much about deceit as if they had actually told a lie.

FYI TARGET was founded by Rüdiger Nehberg, also known as ‘Sir Vival’, he’s into ‘survival training’.
ruediger-nehberg.de/

And for the record I don’t argue that this deplorable event is peculiar to Islam. Only Islam supports it in their holy books. But I congratulate Al Azhar for moving beyond this, it only tool them 600 years to do this.

Sheikh al-Badri is an Islamic proponent of female genital mutilation. The Haddiths give some indication that it is approved; certainly it is not condemned even though it was a practice at the time of Muhammad.
Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

Apologist sites such as islamawareness.net/Circumcision/fgm.html claim most Moslems have never heard of it… but then also claim that it’s been in practice in Egypt since the time of the Pharaohs; i.e… it’s long-standing.

"In 2000, a study found 80% of women aged 15 to 49 had undergone FGM. UNICEF claims that 3 million females, varying in age from childhood to maturity, undergo FGM each year. An estimated 130 million women around the globe have been subjected to the procedure. Most of these are Africans.

pro_universal:

Wrong again. The wife is absolutely guaranteed the right to practice her religion in Islam. Next time you give an accusation like this, try to provide an Islamic source that supports the claim

I didn’t say SHE CAN’T PRACTICE her religion. I said the husband had the right to CURB (that is ‘restrict’) her practice of her religion.
Here’s one opinion on it
Muslim forbidding his non-Muslim wife to celebrate her religious festivals
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=70177&ln=eng

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal:

As do many Jewish communities and traditional Christian communities. What’s wrong with it?

You do it because women are seen as inferior, and at certain times of the year, dirty (un-clean)

Your own site again goes for out-of-context bites

Montalban:

Moslems also think a woman is less intelligent than a male

pro_universal:

Again, totally false

The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle.

And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=70177&ln=eng

Read the ruling on the status of wives…they even enter Heaven before their husbands in Islamic teaching.
Sure, to prepare it for their husbands. Some men will get a bevy of ‘houri’, the wife gets to tend to her husband.

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal:

Overall, I really find this post just more of the same…you’re attacking a religion without bothering to find out what it teaches, and moreso, you’re choosing to focus on issues which are most appropriately and effectively dealt with in your own community first.

What I find is you willing to portray apologist out-of-context bites of information as the whole truth most disturbing. I expect you direct your kuffir associates to such sites when they ask.

Your own site…
The Best women
Abu Huraira (radhiallaho anho) told that when Allah’s messenger was asked which woman was best, he replied, “The one who fills [her husband] with joy when he sees her, obeys him when he directs and does not oppose him by displeasing him regarding her person or property.” (Mishkat)
qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1497&CATE=89#Advice%20for

She must obey him and ‘please him’. This means to satisfy his lusts. For if she doesn’t she’s admonished.
It is clear that Muhammad had a special place for women, he kept nine wives and numerous concubines. But is this love? What did he invoke his followers to do? “Omar reported from the Holy Prophet (Muhammad) who said, ‘No man shall be questioned for beating his wife.’” (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215)

“The prophet said: ‘When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.’”(Sahih hadith, chapter 558) . This notion that a woman is to give herself over to her husband’s desires is further reinforced… “The prophet of Allah said: When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven.” Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section ‘Duties of husband and wife’, Hadith No. 61. Not only that, she is admonished for not doing so; “The prophet said: ‘When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.’”(Sahih hadith, chapter 558).

Women are generally deemed inferior…
“The Prophet (Muhammad) said: ‘I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.’ It was asked, ‘Do they disbelieve in Allah?’ (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, 'They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favours and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.’” (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 1:2:28)

What you want to do is pretend that ‘equal obligation’ is equality. It is not. The difference is akin to where a master and a slave both must live by laws of governance in their relationship towards each other.
“Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Muhammad was talking to a group of women when he said, ‘… I see the majority of you will go to Hell.’ The women asked why, to which Muhammad responded, ‘You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions.’ He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, ‘How?’ Muhammad answered, ‘Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man’s? And that is on account of her short intelligence.’”(Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137) (The irony of this is Muhammad’s view is proven by an earlier statement of his about women’s testimony).

"Allah’s Apostle once said to a group of women : ‘I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked: ‘O Allah’s Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?’ They replied in the affirmative. He said: ‘This is the deficiency of your intelligence’ … ‘Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women replied in the affirmative. He said: ‘This is the deficiency in your religion.’?Sahih Bukhari, Arabic-English translation, 1 Hadith No. 301. See also vol. 3, Hadith No. 826.

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal:

You missed the point. You should address these problems in a way where you reach those closest to you: i.e., reach people on the level of their being Australian or Christian. You aren’t reaching anyone by bashing Islam; you’re just alienating Muslims because it’s obvious to them that you don’t know anything about their religion.

I didn’t miss the point. You did. You claim I should berate my country-men to do something. My country-men include Moslems. Moslems who are my country-men believe in this inequality. I am urging them not to. You yourself said that this attitude of violence wasn’t peculiar to the rest of Australia, so as Moslems are encouraged to believe in the inferiority of women, this leaves me urging my fellow country-men (who are Moslem) not to.

pro_universal:

This is truly odd. First of all, the fatwa was comprehensive, i.e., based on an interpretation of a broad range of texts and rulings in Islam. Second, the article you just posted says specifically:

I accept that this site has come to this conclusion, however as noted earlier, it’s impractical as a means of admonishing her, and it’s not widely accepted that ‘beat lightly’ is the best interpretation. You just keep skipping past that, pretending that it is me alone telling Moslems how it should be interpreted.

pro_universal:

I don’t waste my time reading anything at MEMRI. It’s a propaganda organization created and run by Israeli intelligence officials

For those upset with the accuracy of MEMRI, here are mere links to Islamic opinion that they give. One can look at the ‘opinion’ without fear of MEMRI editorialising. And, for the record, the Israeli Intelligence network is first-rate. Which is why Israel’s still there

From the MEMRI site…
(I hope the links work)
The following are individual segments from Arab TV on the issue:
Clip No. 556 - Al-Azhar Sheik Farhat Al-Munji Explains Wife-Beating in Islam
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=556

Clip No. 509 - Discussion on Wife-Beating: Ten Toothpick Blows Do Not Cause Much Pain
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=509

Clip No. 455 - A Discussion on Wife Beating in Islam
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=455

Clip No. 443 - Saudi Cleric Sliman Al-Odeh on How and Why Prophet Muhammad Beat His Wife
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=443

Clip No. 440 - Egyptian TV Discussion on Wife Beating
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=440

Clip No. 392 - Sheik Al-Qaradhawi: Wife Beating Yes, Homosexuality No
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=392

Clip No. 287 - Debate on Wife Beating on Qatar TV
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=287

Clip No. 265 - Egyptian Cleric Yousuf Al-Badri on Wife-Beating and Women’s Role in Islam
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=265
Clip No. 264 - Egyptian Al-Azhar Professor Sabri Abd Al-Rauf Explains Wife-Beating in Islam
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=264
Clip No. 226 - Sermon on Qatar TV: With Some Women, Life is Impossible Unless You Carry a Rod
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=226
Clip No. 184 - Battered Saudi TV Host and Abusive Husband’s Televised Interviews
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=184
Clip No. 173 - Sheik Abd Al-Hamid Al-Muhajir Explains Wife-Beating in Islam
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=173
Clip No. 102 - Al-Azhar Sheikh, Muhammad Al-Mussayyer, on Wife-Beating in Islam
memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=102

 

[pro_universal]

Then why do you do that?
You have cited a Moslem apologist site that says that the interpretation is to tap lightly. I have cited evidence from your scriptures (Hadith) that show Muhammad allowed beating.

Sunnipath is a school for Muslims that issues fatwas…for Muslims. It’s not apologetics. And as you can see from reading the actual Muslims’ own rulings on the subject, your interpretation and use of the religious texts is wrong. Maybe if there were a new religion called “Montalbanism”, where Montalban gets the final say over what the texts require, your points would be valid. Since this is Islam, what Muslim scholars say is what constitutes the beliefs of Muslims.

Sure, you can interpret this as ‘tap lightly’, but as I noted, most don’t. Why? Because it’s totally impractical. Islam sees itself as a practical religion

Strange that you say this, because both your citation and mine claim that the Quran forbids beating, of anyone, wife, child, or anyone else. You have not cited a single Muslim source that agrees with your claim that Islam permits beating-all you have is your say so and some snippets of religious text, analyzed not in the framework of Muslim theology, but rather…by Montalban’s google work. Not really much more to say on that point, is there?

You argued for something that rips families apart. Divorce does that. Even your faith allows it.

Notice that you’re not answering the question or addressing the issue.

But I congratulate Al Azhar for moving beyond this, it only tool them 600 years to do this.

Read the article. You seem to be backtracking on this issue anyway, acknowledging that “Sunni muslims” outlaw the practice. That’s 80 percent of Islam. This isn’t practiced in Shia regions of the world…so can you find any sect at all in Islam, even one, that says it’s permissible? If you can’t, you’re going to have to conclude that this claim of yours was false.

I didn’t say SHE CAN’T PRACTICE her religion. I said the husband had the right to CURB (that is ‘restrict’) her practice of her religion.
Here’s one opinion on it

Well, I’m noticing one consistent thing in your claims finally: the only website that supports them is “islamqa.com.” If you cruise all the major Islamic websites, it will be easy for you to see why relying on that one particular website for generalizations about Islam is silly.

You do it because women are seen as inferior, and at certain times of the year, dirty (un-clean)

Your own site again goes for out-of-context bites

My citation is to Muslim scholarship. That’s where you have to look if you want to know what Muslims believe. Like I said before, if you want to invent your own religion, feel free…but you can’t invent your own claims based on a few quotes of text, and then demand that other people recognize it as Islamic teaching.

What I find is you willing to portray apologist out-of-context bites of information as the whole truth most disturbing. I expect you direct your kuffir associates to such sites when they ask.

References to the statements of Islamic scholars on a particular issue are not “out of context bites.” That’s the very definition of what it is to find out what Muslims believe-to refer to Muslim authorities.

 

[pro_universal]

I didn’t miss the point. You did. You claim I should berate my country-men to do something. My country-men include Moslems. Moslems who are my country-men believe in this inequality.

Well, I guarantee you that with your parodies of the religion and apparent total lack of instruction in Islamic teaching, your claims about Islam will have you laughed out of the room for most. As a Christian who presumably knows something about Christianity, your labor is going to bear more fruit reaching out to those closest to you. You just might be able to start a dialogue with those thousands of misguided Christians who are involved in domestic violence and other sorts of abuse, but you aren’t going to succeed with Muslims because you can’t seem to understand the basics of their faith.

I accept that this site has come to this conclusion, however as noted earlier, it’s impractical as a means of admonishing her, and it’s not widely accepted that ‘beat lightly’ is the best interpretation. You just keep skipping past that, pretending that it is me alone telling Moslems how it should be interpreted.

Well, you haven’t provided a single Muslim authority that says “beating” is permitted. That should be a sign to you in itself as to the popularity of this belief.

For those upset with the accuracy of MEMRI, here are mere links to Islamic opinion that they give. One can look at the ‘opinion’ without fear of MEMRI editorialising. And, for the record, the Israeli Intelligence network is first-rate. Which is why Israel’s still there

Well, I posted two good articles for you to read on it. If you want to ignore the facts, no one can stop you, but your confidence in MEMRI and Israeli intelligence agencies won’t make MEMRI a good source for accurate translation and presentation of Arab media.

For the record, the Israeli intelligence network has failed in almost every single Israeli crisis since 1967. They’re much better at public relation than intelligence gathering-as the 1973 surprise attack, disastrous 1982 Beirut occupation, embarrassing captures in 2006, tenacity of Hizbullah in the 2006 war, and the inability to even stop Al Manar television demonstrated. But that all risks going off topic…if you want to debate the merits of Israeli intelligence networks, feel free to PM me.

 

[Montalban]

This Hadith indicates that a woman has shortcomings by nature.
1 It is the nature of a woman to make great materialistic demands.
2 She nags for her demands.
3 She is obstinate.
Although the Hadith is indicative to her shortcomings, the husband is indirectly addressed to condition the brain and attitude to be tolerant and
accept the shortcomings as her natural instinct.
islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=3885
"Therefore, the Quran allows beating one’s wife as the final stage of punishment, in the event of unreasonable behaviour of a woman with regard to the sexual desires of her husband
…
A man, however, is not permitted to surpass the prescribed limit and resort to oppression. Men are reminded of the following:

(a) The aim of physical punishment of one’s wife should be a way of education and not that of taking revenge.
(b) Hitting should be done by hand or by using a thin and light wooden stick.
al-islam.org/marriageandfamily/55.htm

Sunnipath is a school for Muslims that issues fatwas…for Muslims. It’s not apologetics. And as you can see from reading the actual Muslims’ own rulings on the subject, your interpretation and use of the religious texts is wrong. Maybe if there were a new religion called “Montalbanism”, where Montalban gets the final say over what the texts require, your points would be valid. Since this is Islam, what Muslim scholars say is what constitutes the beliefs of Muslims.

I know it’s so hard for you to deal with facts because this is yet another time in this one thread where you reduce the evidence FROM MOSLEMS that I present, and pretend it’s MY INTERPRETATION.

Strange that you say this, because both your citation and mine claim that the Quran forbids beating, of anyone, wife, child, or anyone else. You have not cited a single Muslim source that agrees with your claim that Islam permits beating-all you have is your say so and some snippets of religious text, analyzed not in the framework of Muslim theology, but rather…by Montalban’s google work. Not really much more to say on that point, is there?

No. Your quote says not beating except within limits, i.e. with a hand. And again you downplay this as my interpretation. I guess presenting you with evidence just won’t do the trick

You must even re-work Muhammed allowing beating to the point of bruising a woman.

You’ve not dealt with how does one admonish a woman by just tapping her lightly.

Notice that you’re not answering the question or addressing the issue.

I note you’ve not addressed the issue of ‘punishment for the breakup of families’ must include divorce.

Well, you haven’t provided a single Muslim authority that says “beating” is permitted. That should be a sign to you in itself as to the popularity of this belief.

That’s simply false. All the MEMRI links show this. You simply wish to re-work ‘beating with a hand’ to ‘beating’ per se. It’s one thing to say you don’t agree with it, but a total falsity to say it’s not been presented.

As you seem to have given up addressing evidence by Moslems by Moslems I move on, for the benefit of anyone else actually interested in the subject.

Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2142
"Abu Dawud’s notes on 2141 are: “This shows that wives should obey their husbands…”. On 2142: “This means that a man tries his best to correct his wife, but he fails to do so, he is allowed to beat her as a last resort. This tradition never means that a husband should beat his wife without any valid reason”.
answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

 

[Montalban]

Here’s some more on the ‘moderation’ of Islamic beating, note it doesn’t say “Don’t beat your wife”, just “Don’t beat your wife as you would your slave”.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam’a:
The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?” And Hisham said, “As he beats his slave”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.068

Book 1, Number 0142:

Narrated Laqit ibn Sabirah:

I was the leader of the delegation of Banu al-Muntafiq or (the narrator doubted) I was among the delegation of Banu al-Muntafiq that came to the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When we reached the Prophet, we did not find him in his house. We found there Aisha, the Mother of the Believers. She ordered that a dish called Khazirah should be prepared for us. It was then prepared. A tray containing dates was then presented to us. (The narrator Qutaybah did not mention the word qina’, tray).

Then the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came. He asked: Has anything been served to you or ordered for you? We replied: Yes, Messenger of Allah. While we were sitting in the company of the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) we suddenly saw that a shepherd was driving a herd of sheep to their fold. He had with him a newly-born lamb that was crying.

He (the Prophet) asked him: What did it bear, O so and so? He replied: A ewe. He then said: Slaughter for us in its place a sheep. Do not think that we are slaughtering it for you. We have one hundred sheep and we do not want their number to increase. Whenever a ewe is born, we slaughter a sheep in its place.

(The narrator says that the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used the word la tahsabanna, do not think).

I (the narrator Laqit) then said: Messenger of Allah, I have a wife who has something (wrong) in her tongue, i.e. she is insolent. He said: Then divorce her. I said: Messenger of Allah, she had company with me and I have children from her. He said: Then ask her (to obey you). If there is something good in her, she will do so (obey); and do not beat your wife as you beat your slave-girl.

I said: Messenger of Allah, tell me about ablution. He said: Perform ablution in full and make the fingers go through the beard and snuff with water well except when you are fasting.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/001.sat.html#001.0142

And talk about strange circumstances…
Book 30, Number 30.2.13:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I waswith him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, ‘A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ‘I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!’ Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.’ "
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/030.mmt.html#030.30.2.13

Here’s some more authorities

SUPERIORITY
According to the authentic Tafaseer, prior to the creation of Aadam (Álayhis salaam), the Malaaikah (angels) entertained the opinion that Allah Taãla will not create any being superior to them. Allah Taãla negates this opinion of the Malaaikah by creating Aadam (Álayhis salaam) and making him a manifestation of divine attributes. To illustrate Insaan’s superiority over all pecies of creation, Allah Taãla commanded the Malaaikah to make Sajdah (prostration) to him (Nabi Aadam (Álayhis salaam). The superiority of man is well emphasised by the statement of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam): ‘Allah created Aadam in His (Allah’s) form.’ Insha Allah, this Hadith will be explained in greater detail in some future issue of ‘the Majlis’. Here it is sufficient to mention the interpretation of the authorities intelligence, sight, hearing, etc. These lofty attributes are located in that part of the human body called head. It is for this reason that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) forbade striking or slapping the face of any human being or even an animal. In the Tafseer of the Qurãnic Aayat which permits husbands to beat wives in cases of necessity, it is said: ‘The face shall not be slapped’. Explaining the reason for the prohibition of slapping the face, Imaam Nawawi (RA) says in his Sharhul Muslim, ‘Because the face is the embodiment of man’s beauty in addition to it being of sublime nature.’
islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=8124
Note again, this opinion doesn’t stop beating, per se, but limits to where a woman can be beaten

 

[pro_universal]

Montalban,

The first link to the South African site confirms my posts. Your highlighting that it has ideas about the nature of women only serves to show you how similar biblical and quranic views of the female nature are, and does not address the prohibition on beating one’s wife in Islam.

The second site, the only one thus far you’ve give to support your claim, is a Shia site. So already by definition, it doesn’t represent anything like a majority (less than 20 percent) in Islam, and on top of that, it’s hard to say how many Shia find it credible.

You’ve not dealt with how does one admonish a woman by just tapping her lightly.

What is there to deal with? Your own source, the very first link from islam.tc, proves that this is all that is permitted. There’s nothing more to say: you’ve listed your own sources now (two) that say beating is prohibited in Islam.

I note you’ve not addressed the issue of ‘punishment for the breakup of families’ must include divorce.

Divorce is a regulated process that results from wrongful conduct in a marriage. You’re creating a false dilemma here: one need not believe that divorce must be prohibited to believe that infidelity should be punished. The two issues are unrelated, except insofar as infidelity is a common cause of divorce.

That’s simply false. All the MEMRI links show this. You simply wish to re-work ‘beating with a hand’ to ‘beating’ per se. It’s one thing to say you don’t agree with it, but a total falsity to say it’s not been presented.

Well, if Israeli intelligence officers are your source for an “unbiased, accurately translated” picture of Arab media, and you find this acceptable…it’s hard to imagine how you could possibly be fair in evaluating the religion. You have the information proving that it is a propaganda organization in front of you. Ignore it if you want, but repeating yourself won’t make you right.

Here’s some more on the ‘moderation’ of Islamic beating, note it doesn’t say “Don’t beat your wife”, just “Don’t beat your wife as you would your slave”.

What that is, is more of you scouring huge collections of text and picking out pieces you want to make your own view of Islam. Many people do the same with the bible in order to discredit it, the “bring my enemies before me!” quote from Jesus being one common example.

I will repeat: your own idea of what texts are authoritative, how they should be interpreted, and what lessons can be drawn from them is utterly worthless as a measure of establishing what Muslims believe.

You can quote your own ideas about what the religious texts teach until the cows come home, and you will have written precisely zero about what Muslims believe. If you want to know what Muslims believe about these texts, you have to read their analysis and scholarship.

 

[inJESUS]

Much ado about nothing. a Muslim man has the right to beat his disobediant wife. Those who want to change the meaning of “idrib” into “light pat” are only showing their attempt to put the commandment into a “better light” and proving that something is wrong wth the “commandment”. A Muslim can marry up to 4 and he can divorce her easily and he must raise his children as Muslim. These must be taken into consideration before a non-Muslim marries a Muslim. Period.

 

[Montalban]

Montalban,

The first link to the South African site confirms my posts. Your highlighting that it has ideas about the nature of women only serves to show you how similar biblical and quranic views of the female nature are, and does not address the prohibition on beating one’s wife in Islam.

The Bible doesn’t think that women are intellectually inferior.

The second site, the only one thus far you’ve give to support your claim, is a Shia site. So already by definition, it doesn’t represent anything like a majority (less than 20 percent) in Islam, and on top of that, it’s hard to say how many Shia find it credible.

This is you again repeating your false claim about lack of evidence. The Islam.tc site says that they can be hit, just not their faces slapped.

You want to re-work this to a demand for evidence that I’ve already presented, you simply do discredit before all who read your posts.

 

[Montalban]

Much ado about nothing. a Muslim man has the right to beat his disobediant wife. Those who want to change the meaning of “idrib” into “light pat” are only showing their attempt to put the commandment into a “better light” and proving that something is wrong wth the “commandment”. A Muslim can marry up to 4 and he can divorce her easily and he must raise his children as Muslim. These must be taken into consideration before a non-Muslim marries a Muslim. Period.

Exactly. It is illogical to say that he can demand obedience from her by admonishing a light tap. Why not a tickle? “If your wives still defy you, you may tickle them”

Despite the fact I cited a Moslem (women’s) site that says most Moslems interpret this as a ‘hit’, and in fact I then cite two sites that say she can be hit (one Sunni, one Shi’a) I find one person here continually demanding evidence that this is so.

You are correct. Moslem men can hit their wives. Just not in the face, nor as hard as they hit their camels and slave-girls.

 

[inJESUS]

Exactly. It is illogical to say that he can demand obedience from her by admonishing a light tap. Why not a tickle? “If your wives still defy you, you may tickle them”

yea as if Allah had no other choice but to use the verb “beat” he used in 8:12

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: **smite **ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

The verb used for “smite” is the same one used for beating women. Did Allah run out of words?

You are correct. Moslem men can hit their wives. Just not in the face, nor as hard as they hit their camels and slave-girls

 

[cleobanzj]

Hello cleobanzj!

I admire your steadfast faith in Jesus.

I am wondering, does your son ever get confused or torn that his parents are practicing different religions?

Its sad, I think, that something untoward has to keep on happening for you and your child to practice your faith. Is your husband aware that you are bringing your child to Church or does everything have to be done surreptiously?

Also, does your husband ever insist on raising his child Muslim?

I’ve heard that intermarriage to a Muslim is fraught with difficulty, but I’ve never heard it from someone who is really living such a marriage.

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I think you are a very brave woman.

God bless!

Thanks for asking Ma. Eugenia. My son and I go to mass with the full knowledge of my husband. There was a time when my son was 5 years old, my husband wanted him to attend quranic school. At this point in my life, however, I had read so much about islam that I discussed point after point as to why I believe that going to quranic school would affect my son’s attitude towards others. You see, my son loves and respects everyone. During these discussions, I specifically point out the fact that in these quranic schools, they teach the children to “dislike” more like hate 1) the jews and 2) others who are non muslims. These are not taught in words, but in “deeds.” You see, action speaks louder than words. I see this hatred forming in the minds and actions of my husband’s friends’ children. It is quite subtle, but destructive. The children have this fear of interacting with people who call themselves “jews” or “nonmuslims.” It is more pronounced in children of conservative muslims.

One such time, we went to SFO along with my husband’s friend and his son. We went for a walk. During the walk, we saw different types of people, there were the homeless, sleeping on the street covered only with a cardboard box, men holding hands, women in their miniskirts and high heels, and others just out enjoying themselves. When I looked at my husband’s friend’s child, he had such a look of horror, hatred and disgust at everything that he saw that he vowed never to go back to SFO ever again. Other children may be scared at what they see, but there is no sense of hatred or disgust. I was taken aback by this child’s response to the surroundings. It was pure hatred.

Intermarriage is fraught with the greatest difficulty especially when the muslim husband’s family is around because there is this sense of others backing up the muslim belief. I believe that if I ever go back to Pakistan, I will not get back to the US alive, especially if they found out that I raised my son Christian, irrespective whether my husband allowed me to.