In major address to Italian Catholic convention, Pope explains his vision of 'Christian humanism' [CC]

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Pope Francis sketched out his vision of “practical Christian humanism” in a major address to the 5th National Ecclesiastical Congress in Florence, Italy, on November 10. The Pope spoke to …

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I hate to say it, but Pope Francis’ speeches are some of the most confusing gobbledygook I have ever read, and I am pretty good at deciphering confusing statements. This article is no exception. :confused: I am torn between liking him for his kindness and personality, and being off-put by his homilies and other statements. I was never confused by Pope Benedict’s statements.
 
I wonder whether there is any value in any form of humanism.

The worst thing the church could do is accept the idea of constant change, other than in an ascetical and spiritual sense. It seems like the church is in a constant state of change. The words of our fathers aren’t good enough for us. Vatican ii is outdated already with its language. You have to wonder, if our words are constantly changing do we believe any of what we say? It is the same thing that has destroyed the concept of the family in western society. It is a never ending revolution in which the young are rising up against their own parents and rejecting what they taught them. No one is faithful anymore; not to family and not to church. The question is, do we believe anything, or is it just a revolution against our parents?
 
boomerang said:
I hate to say it, but Pope Francis’ speeches are some of the most confusing gobbledygook I have ever read, and I am pretty good at deciphering confusing statements. This article is no exception. :confused: I am torn between liking him for his kindness and personality, and being off-put by his homilies and other statements. I was never confused by Pope Benedict’s statements.
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The address is perhaps not easily understood, but it is not gobbledygook by any means.
 
I recall there being a lot of discussion of Christian humanism before Vatican II. The idea of humanism from a Christian perspective was not in contradiction to Catholic teaching. However, in a few decades, secular humanism won out in most educational establishments and Christian humanism was forgotten.
 
JimG said:
Are you saying that morality is mostly a matter of psychology? We no longer need manuals of morality or examinations of conscience, because a therapist will suffice?

But since you mention psychology, there is this.
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No, I am not saying morality is mostly a matter of psychology or of psychology at all. I was referring to a personality type.
 
If Google Translate is accurate, this was an interesting comment Pope Francis made…Discuss together, dare I say get angry together, think about the best solutions for all.
 
Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally.

I think what he’s saying here is that reliving the 70s through the liturgical music of the St. Louis Jesuits must be abandoned immediately.

Hopefully the USCCB will take decisive action on this right away.
 
And Pope Francis continues to make the conservative Catholics squirm. . . .
 
I figure the Friday Night Pizza with pepperoni and sausage will still cause eternal heartburn absent sincere repentence. :highprayer:
 
boomerang said:
I hate to say it, but Pope Francis’ speeches are some of the most confusing gobbledygook I have ever read, and I am pretty good at deciphering confusing statements. This article is no exception. :confused: I am torn between liking him for his kindness and personality, and being off-put by his homilies and other statements. I was never confused by Pope Benedict’s statements.
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The problem is that these news sources don't bother to provide/explain the context adequately enough. Pope Francis is saying the Church needs to change here mentality and not doctrines. Particularly, he is concerned about a siege mentality in which the Church ceases to go forth as an agent of the Gospel in the world and instead, retreats from the world. In this mentality, the Church views structures and doctrines as ends in themselves and not as instruments in communicating the gospel effectively. He is opposed to a navel gazing Church. Posters need to stop seeing this as a Conservative Catholic vs. Liberal Catholic issue. It is not. Also, what are guests reading these kinds of posts supposed to think? When people turn this into a liberal vs conservative issue, people think that the Catholic Church is divided just like very other religion.
 
Jon_Mallory said:
The problem is that these news sources don’t bother to provide/explain the context adequately enough. Pope Francis is saying the Church needs to change here mentality and not doctrines. Particularly, he is concerned about a siege mentality in which the Church ceases to go forth as an agent of the Gospel in the world and instead, retreats from the world. In this mentality, the Church views structures and doctrines as ends in themselves and not as instruments in communicating the gospel effectively. He is opposed to a navel gazing Church. Posters need to stop seeing this as a Conservative Catholic vs. Liberal Catholic issue. It is not. Also, what are guests reading these kinds of posts supposed to think? When people turn this into a liberal vs conservative issue, people think that the Catholic Church is divided just like very other religion.
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I do not believe that traditional or orthodox Catholicism and conservatism/fundamentalism are at all the same thing, and I would very much doubt Pope Francis does either. There is the clear comment concerning conservatism/fundamentalism in his address to the Italian convention, and I don’t think it should be ignored or explained away.
 
philipl said:
Please explain what it means, its all gobbledygook to me.
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I only understand what I do of it. While it is not for me to attempt to explain a papal address, I know that it is complex and not gobbledygook. I think in part Pope Francis’s comments are often intentionally meant to elicit confrontation and discussion of issues that have been made silent.

“The pontiff also warned against two temptations that Christians commonly encounter: the temptations toward Pelagianism and Gnosticism. Pelagianism, he explained, centers the faith in ‘structures, in organizations, in plans that are perfect because they are abstract.’ Gnosticism, on the other hand, trusts in logical and clear reasoning–which however loses the tenderness of the flesh.”

Here is a bit of how I understood the address (and it is not to say it is what Pope Francis meant to say in his address to the Italian Church:

The Church of course is a structure, an organization, and Pelagianism would center the faith in the structure or organization in an abstract way–as an idea or concept. Gnosticism trusts in logic, reason and the intellect. But faith is of the ‘flesh’, which is to say of the heart. Reducing spirituality to the abstract idea of an organization (e.g., doctrine) is a disconnect from what is genuinely spiritual.

I believe that though the address is complex, it is not gobbledygook. Pope Francis is very consistent in what he says. There are terms and categories employed that are commonly understood in philosophy, but they are not explained in any academic way. It become too technical, I think, for an address. Some may ‘get it’ and others might not, but it results in discussion rather than silence.
 
Catholic_Press said:
Pope Francis sketched out his vision of “practical Christian humanism” in a major address to the 5th National Ecclesiastical Congress in Florence, Italy, on November 10. The Pope spoke to …

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Humanism, whether Christian or non-Christian, emphasizes the inherent worth and dignity of each individual human being. The concept is connected to that of “humanitas” and dates back to Ancient Greece. The meaning of humanism evolved throughout the Italian, French, and English Renaissance and the concept has further changed during the modern era. However, its original and lasting focus on human dignity (humanitas) is something that both Christians and non-Christians can agree on.
 
“Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally”.
Now what exactly is meant by outdated forms ?
 
Seamus_L said:
“Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally”.

Now what exactly is meant by outdated forms ?
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‘Form’ is a big word in this context, but Pelagianism and Gnosticism would be two examples. Practical Christian humanism would not be a form, and it should not rely on political clout or public influence either (surrogates of power, image and money).
 
Seamus_L said:
“Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally”.
Code: 
                                      Now what exactly is meant by outdated forms ?
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A good question. What outdated forms? What outdated conduct?
And the Church has dealt with both Pelagianism and with Gnosticism before, so it’s not as though we are addressing some new problem.
 
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