In major address to Italian Catholic convention, Pope explains his vision of 'Christian humanism' [CC]

[Paganus]

“Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally”.

                                      Now what exactly is meant by outdated forms ?

Definitely Mass in the vernacular. It’s a small world and we should no longer be divided by our many languages - we need to pray Una Voce. It was a nice experiment, but it is an outdated form and needs to be retired.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Definitely Mass in the vernacular. It’s a small world and we should no longer be divided by our many languages - we need to pray Una Voce. It was a nice experiment, but it is an outdated form and needs to be retired.

That is not what Pope Francis is talking about. Do not derail the thread.

 

[LongingSoul]

“Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally”.

                                      Now what exactly is meant by outdated forms ?

For me these words invoke the spirit of the far flung saints. Those who had very little access to theological literature to live the Gospel. They had the bible, their missal and prayers. Maybe little biographies of saints that inspire their own faith.

Those are the Catholic characters who experienced the gospel truths that the doctrines and canons facilitate. They trusted in humble conscience examination for non gospel attitudes and closed hearts, rather than googled the official document that spelled things out.

There are just too many people oozing hate and judgement “in the name of Catholic teaching” around today. It would shock the saints of old to see how much power is given to forms and structures that absolve people of looking inside themselves.

 

[LongingSoul]

I also find it appealing how Pope Francis refers to ‘the Italian Church’ in same way we speak of the Australian Church, the American Church, the African Church. The Italian Church has always come over as synonymous with the Vatican which had become synonymous with the seat of Peter. When Rome became the new Jerusalem the world as they new it was a very small place. The Pope equally belongs to all of us.

 

[Thomas_White]

A good question. What outdated forms? What outdated conduct?
And the Church has dealt with both Pelagianism and with Gnosticism before, so it’s not as though we are addressing some new problem.

But Pelagianism and Gnosticism have not disappeared, and this could be understood as explained in comment #15 (and of course by what Pope Francis said in his address).

And I agree that an exclusive focus on doctrines and canons that suffocates an interior spirituality is an insidious aberration that too often reflects a “closed heart” and a judgmental attitude.

That Pope Francis speaks to the Italian bishops as the Bishop of Rome is not without great significance.

 

[philipl]

I only understand what I do of it. While it is not for me to attempt to explain a papal address, I know that it is complex and not gobbledygook. I think in part Pope Francis’s comments are often intentionally meant to elicit confrontation and discussion of issues that have been made silent.

“The pontiff also warned against two temptations that Christians commonly encounter: the temptations toward Pelagianism and Gnosticism. Pelagianism, he explained, centers the faith in ‘structures, in organizations, in plans that are perfect because they are abstract.’ Gnosticism, on the other hand, trusts in logical and clear reasoning–which however loses the tenderness of the flesh.”

Here is a bit of how I understood the address (and it is not to say it is what Pope Francis meant to say in his address to the Italian Church:

The Church of course is a structure, an organization, and Pelagianism would center the faith in the structure or organization in an abstract way–as an idea or concept. Gnosticism trusts in logic, reason and the intellect. But faith is of the ‘flesh’, which is to say of the heart. Reducing spirituality to the abstract idea of an organization (e.g., doctrine) is a disconnect from what is genuinely spiritual.

I believe that though the address is complex, it is not gobbledygook. Pope Francis is very consistent in what he says. There are terms and categories employed that are commonly understood in philosophy, but they are not explained in any academic way. It become too technical, I think, for an address. Some may ‘get it’ and others might not, but it results in discussion rather than silence.

So youre answer about me understanding it as gobbledygook, sounds to me like jibberjabber. So the faith has become so complicated that now the common person can not understand it?

 

[Thomas_White]

It is described in the OP as a major address to the 5th National Eccelesiastical Congress (the Italian Catholic Convention). Maybe they understood what you think is gobbledygook. :takeoff:

 

[Thomas_White]

So youre answer about me understanding it as gobbledygook, sounds to me like jibberjabber. So the faith has become so complicated that now the common person can not understand it?

It is described in the OP as a major address to the 5th National Eccelesiastical Congress (the Italian Catholic Convention). Maybe they understood what you think is gobbledygook. :bluelite:

 

[graciew]

So youre answer about me understanding it as gobbledygook, sounds to me like jibberjabber. So the faith has become so complicated that now the common person can not understand it?

No panic buttons! Yes,it may sound a bit …we say Chinese…
I do not intend to get into the conference only grab the blower and disperse some dust.
There are books in my bookshelves that may help.
Christian Humanism. We can go to Jacques Maritain.
Recall Aristotelian- Thomistic philosophy.
Some of Hillaire Belloc…

And this is John Paul II I found googling the Aristotelian Thomistic which we were immersed at the Catholic University back then in my late seventies. I studied Political Science back then so understand this in the context,please.
Christian worldview.
Here is John Paul II. ( please someone help me translate it…I cannot copy paste the translation)Francis is now explaining his practical vision of it.
Hope it helps and ,breathe…
aciprensa.com/noticias/para-el-humanismo-cristiano-el-hombre-viene-de-dios-y-a-el-debe-volver-dice-el-papa/

I d say Spes Salvi too does help a lot . That is Benedict. Sorry I do not have much time to quote right now.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Faced with the ills or the problems of the Church, it is useless to seek solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism, in the restoration of outdated forms and conduct that have no capacity for meaning, even culturally.

I think what he’s saying here is that reliving the 70s through the liturgical music of the St. Louis Jesuits must be abandoned immediately.
.

The Pope isn’t even close to saying this.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And Pope Francis continues to make the conservative Catholics squirm. . . .

Which has its own entertainment value.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Definitely Mass in the vernacular. It’s a small world and we should no longer be divided by our many languages - we need to pray Una Voce. It was a nice experiment, but it is an outdated form and needs to be retired.

Actually what you’re calling for is precisely what Pope Francis is speaking against.

Jim

 

[Thomas_White]

Which has its own entertainment value.

Jim

This is surely a redeeming value. What is interesting it that it seems many millions of souls around the world at least intuitively understand Pope Francis while others apparently cannot understand him at all. :frighten: