In Marian Apparitions, did she ever say

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the Hatter said:
*“Can someone help me with this? I don’t understand devotion to Mary very well at all. I do believe in her intercession, but the above confuses me. Why do we cry out to Mary? Why do we need confidence in her (like, for what really?), How is Mary the fountain of life? Why are we under her shadow and protection? Crossing of arms?”

*That’s almost precisely what I was going to ask. I do most definitely believe in praying to Mary for her intercession, and in honoring her, and that she was the mother of Jesus and never sinned—but this seems excessive. We Catholics keep on saying that we do not worship Mary–we venerate her–but I am seeing more and more stuff that is seeming like worship, and it kinda scares me. I’m not trying to start a flame fest here, I’d just like some answers.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but let me try offering a couple. One answer, which is really a question first, is what constitutes an act of worship. In my far Protestant (Baptist) days I noticed that our church services consisted largely of hymns, prayers, and a sermon; thus I tend to associate these actions with worship. In the Catholic Church, we worship God by offering the sacrifice of the Mass. In the Old Testament as well, worshipping was usually done by sacrifice. We do not offer sacrifices to Mary or any of the other saints. The question at hand, then, is whether hymns and prayers constitute worship.

A second difference between actions towards God and towards the saints (including Mary) deals with the nature of our prayers. Petitions to Mary are always “please intercede with God on our behalf.” In the litanies, the response addressed to Mary and the other saints is always “pray for us;” the response addressed to God is “have mercy on us.” We never ask Mary to have mercy on us and we never ask God to pray for us.

Why would we want to be under Mary’s protection and care? If the alternative is not to be under her protection and care, all other things being equal, the answer is obvious. If the alternative is to be under Jesus’ protection and care directly, the answer is not so obvious. I would note that in most families the mother is the nurturer and the father is the enforcer of the rules, so it would stand to reason that many people are more comfortable with a mother figure than a father figure. But I am getting in way over my head here.
  • Liberian
 
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DavidB:
Let’s rephrase this to make it more realistic . . .

Internet DSL service . . . . . $29

Holy Scripture which points us to Jesus alone . . . priceless

Look on Scott’s face when he gets to Heaven and realizes that Marian apparitions were demonic counterfeits that led many to devote their prayers and allegiance to Mary instead of the rightful Lord Jesus . . . tragic

I read too many quotes from these so-called apparitions to believe it could really be Mary. I believe they are demonic counterfeits. My opinion is not in any way intended as a slight against the mother of Jesus. It’s just a proper judgement that actually agrees with a number of Catholic bishops who’ve expressed similar misgivings over many of these apparitions. I mean, Medjagurie is so obviously a demonic fake that it practically screams satan as it’s source . . . to actually claim that all religions lead to God and that books such as the Poem of the Man God is good . . . hmm, it’s not hard to discern the source of that.

David
Please tell us which appartitions you have studied so we can get a better understanding of where you are comng from. Remember, you might feel whatever apparitions you have studied are demonic because they do not agree with "Protestant theolgy" which many of us feel is equally demonic (sorry to step on toes) but that is how I feel. Now, there are only a few church approved apparitions, which ones have you studied? I cannot think of any modern day seers who have the approval of the church can any one else? Most of it in my opinion is false and misleading but that is another topic. Thanks…

P.S - Did not mean to come across as harsh David and I am sorry if I did, I actually agree with you on *Medjagurie *which strays from the church approved apparitions…
 
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DavidB:
…I read too many quotes from these so-called apparitions to believe it could really be Mary. I believe they are demonic counterfeits. My opinion is not in any way intended as a slight against the mother of Jesus. It’s just a proper judgement that actually agrees with a number of Catholic bishops who’ve expressed similar misgivings over many of these apparitions. I mean, Medjagurie [sp] is so obviously a demonic fake that it practically screams satan as it’s source . . . to actually claim that all religions lead to God and that books such as the Poem of the Man God is good . . . hmm, it’s not hard to discern the source of that.

David
Good for you for being cautious and skeptical, that’s exactly the policy the Catholic Church follows regarding claimed Marian or other apparitions.

Some claimed apparitions are in fact false. Some may be intentional lies by people with axes to grind against the Church, others are perhaps not intentionally false, by people who mistakenly believe they are receiving a special message from God. One thing we know is that God will never allow any apparition to contradict anything definitively held true by the Catholic Church (and that Mary and all other saints and holy angels would never desire to do such a thing anyway), so any claimed apparition which is found to do so upon investigation by competent authorities is condemned by the Church.

On the other hand, the entire history of our faith is a continuous story of God communicating with His people, sometimes directly, sometimes through the mediation of human prophets, and sometimes through the agency of angels or other heavenly messengers. The Catholic Church does not take the position that God may no longer do in the present what we believe as articles of our Faith that He has done in the past. Some claimed apparitions, after being thoroughly investigated, pass muster as not being in any way contrary to the Faith. These apparitions may be approved by the Church, especially if other corroborating evidence exists, such as the miraculous healings at Lourdes, the Roses at Tepeyac, or the image on St Juan Diego’s tilma. It must also be noted, though, that even when such apparitions are approved by the Church, they still remain within the realm of private revelation and all Christians, exercising their own good judgement are free to believe them or not. They are not Dogma.

And finally, many, possibly most claimed apparitions have been neither approved nor condemned. This may be because the claimed apparition, while not known to be in any way contrary to the faith is still an ongoing phenomenon, or it may be for other reasons. Apparitions that have been neither approved nor condemned likewise fall within the realm of private revelation.

Medjugorje is still an ongoing phenomenon, so it can not be approved at this time (although if competent authorities determine that it is contrary to the Faith it certainly can be condemned while ongoing.) While there is certainly a wide range of opinion on Medjugorje, this writer does not specify what he thinks is “so obviously a demonic fake” about it, so it is not possible to answer his objection. I have never been to Medjugorje, but I know many who have, and who have, as a result become much stronger in their Faith. If “by their fruits you shall know them” is a reliable guide, I would have to say that those fruits of Medjugorje with which I am familiar all seem to be good.

I have not read Poem of the Man God so I can not comment on it.
 
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DavidB:
Let’s rephrase this to make it more realistic . . .

Internet DSL service . . . . . $29

Holy Scripture which points us to Jesus alone . . . priceless

Look on Scott’s face when he gets to Heaven and realizes that Marian apparitions were demonic counterfeits that led many to devote their prayers and allegiance to Mary instead of the rightful Lord Jesus . . . tragic

I read too many quotes from these so-called apparitions to believe it could really be Mary. I believe they are demonic counterfeits. My opinion is not in any way intended as a slight against the mother of Jesus. It’s just a proper judgement that actually agrees with a number of Catholic bishops who’ve expressed similar misgivings over many of these apparitions. I mean, Medjagurie is so obviously a demonic fake that it practically screams satan as it’s source . . . to actually claim that all religions lead to God and that books such as the Poem of the Man God is good . . . hmm, it’s not hard to discern the source of that.

David
David,

Please be careful to distinguish between Marian apparitions that have been approved by the Church, supposed Marian apparitions that have been disapproved by the Church, and possible Marian apparitions on which the Church has not passed final judgement. Guadeloupe, Lourdes, and Fatima fall into the first category; Garabandal, Medjugorje (I think), and Clearwater fall into the third category. Most supposed apparitions that fall into the second category disappear into well-deserved obscurity very quickly so I don’t know about any of them except a vague memory of something in Denver ten or twenty years ago. Also, the Church never passes final judgement on a lot of supposed apparitions that really are fakes because there is no call for her to.

Probably some supposed Marian apparitions in the second and third categories are demonic in origin. I would be very hesitant before saying the same about approved apparitions (see Mark 3:28-30).

Regarding Medjugorje specifically, the Bishop of Mostar very quickly issued a statement to the effect that the supposed apparitions were fake. I read a commentary on this to the effect that it is rare that a bishop has been in such a win-win situation. If the supposed apparition is indeed a fake, then he has saved the Church a good bit of embarrassment. If the supposed apparition is eventually approved, well, one of the titles of Our Lady is “Mother of Mercy,” and a few laps around his rosary will put things right.

The question of “allegiance to Mary” makes it sound like there is a power struggle going on in Heaven between Jesus and His mother. There isn’t. Mary points to her Son as she did in John 2:5–“Do whatever he tells you.”

People have also argued that we should devote all our attentions to God and not to anybody else. This is not practical; for example, are we not to pay any attention to our earthly spouses and parents? I know Jesus said the “he who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me,” but that is not the same thing. We are never called to make a choice between serving God and serving Mary; to serve Mary is to serve God.
  • Liberian
 
Keeping in mind:
1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Is it possible that satan, filled with an all-consuming hatred, can pronounce Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Wouldn’t it be prudent to reflect on the words of Jesus:

Mark 3:25
And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Can satan’s cause be forwarded by praising Jesus?

Satan may have the ability to appear as “an angel of light”, but can he tell us:
‘When you pray the Rosary, say after each mystery: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are most in need.’
It appears that the Pharisees still remain.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
Fascinating…
We have a thread that is both for and against… Very much like scripture itself. (Catholic vs. Protestant interpretation)
What do i mean by that? Scripture is a compilation of contradictions from the beginning written by people who we are to believe that are on fire with the Holy Spirit of God, and therefore are “inerrant” in what they have to say in their writings… (Inerrant = Infallible.)

(No wonder there are protestants!)

How can anyone believe what the scripture says for sure when it’s so full of conflicting verses that it makes your head spin after reading it?

The Gospel of John is embraced by Catholics because of “The Bread of Life Discourse” in chapter 6. (Which i very much believe in from experience… I’ve experienced the divine love of Christ from the sacrament of reconciliation and recieving the Eucharist - even as a clueless Catholic! - not even knowing what the church taught at the time! Go figure?)

Prior to chapter 6 is the famous John 3:16 verse with “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who BELIEVES in HIM might not perish but have eternal life.”

Later in John it gets even more descriptive:
Jn 12:44-50
"Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. And if ANYONE who hears my words and DOES NOT observe them, I DO NOT CONDEMN HIM, FOR I DID NOT COME TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD!

Interesting?

What does that have to do with Marian Apparitions? Nothing… That’s the problem for me…

How does Mary the mother of Jesus Christ (The savior of the world) become: “*the Mother of all who love ME, of those who cry to ME, of those who have confidence in ME.” *

So in other words, she is ONLY the mother of all who love HER, cry to HER and have confidence in HER?

That don’t sound right, reguardless of what message she brings.

There were many martyrs in the early church who died for the love of Jesus Christ and what he did for them on the cross.

I spent 2 years of reciting the Rosary after a major conversion experience back in 1996. In that time i went to 10 consecutive first saturdaya of the month masses. (only 5 required so i guess i’m good to go?) and look where i’m at.

Anyway, what i’m trying to say is that i can see both sides of the issue. I know how Protestants feel and can understand how they can feel the way they do… At the same time, I very much believe in the sacraments (especially the sacrament of Reconciliation, and Eucharist) so what in the world are we as Christians suppose to believe for sure? How does anyone know for sure what to believe?

I question the Infallability of the Church’s teachings, so out of respect of their position, i haven’t been to the Sacraments for the past 8-9 months… 😦

Help??
 
Oh yeah, and finally…

Is Tess from Calvalry a modern day internet martyr for Jesus Christ?

I guess we’ll find out, right?..

I don’t pretend to know anything for sure… all i have is a million confusing questions with insufficient answers. 😦
 
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Caldera:
How does Mary the mother of Jesus Christ (The savior of the world) become: “*the Mother of all who love ME, of those who cry to ME, of those who have confidence in ME.” *

So in other words, she is ONLY the mother of all who love HER, cry to HER and have confidence in HER?

That don’t sound right, reguardless of what message she brings.
Jesus gave Mary to all Christians as their mother in three ways.
  1. To John, from the cross.
  2. By adopting Christians as His brothers
  3. In making Christians part of His Body.
However it is possible to reject that gift. All who truly acknowledge Jesus as Saviour and Brother, and who are part of the body of the Lord, WILL have confidence that Mary is their mother too. Those who reject the promises will also suffer a comparative loss. If people reject Mary, it makes it more difficult for her to help them.
I question the Infallability of the Church’s teachings, so out of respect of their position, i haven’t been to the Sacraments for the past 8-9 months… 😦
Why is it that you question the infallibility of the Church’s teachings?

Do you not believe that Jesus gave the Church teaching authority? After all, He promised to be with the Church until the end of the age, and declared that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He told the Church to teach all nations. So why do you think the Church He founded and to which He gave these promises would then go astray?
 
Joseph Bilodeau:
It’s very simple, really. Devotion is nothing more and nothing less than love, and we love Mary because she is our Mama. Jesus is our eldest brother, His father, God the the Father, is our Abba, our Daddy, and His Mama, Mary, is our Mama.

All little children cry out to their mamas when they’re hurt, or frightened, or even just happy to see them.

I’m not sure how to answer this. It’s like asking why I need confidence in my mother who gave me birth. I suppose it could be argued that I don’t need confidence in her, but that thought just seems so… unthinkable. I know my Mama loves me and prays for me and watches out for me, and I know this for my Blessed Mother just as firmly as I do for my birth mother. That’s confidence. Maybe I don’t really need it, but I can’t imagine living without it.

A fountain is the source from which somthing else procedes. Mary, by her fiat mihi, let it be done unto me according to your word, became the source by which the Word who is Life became flesh and dwelt among us.

Naturally, much of this is poetic language. We aren’t really under her shadow in the sense that we might be in the shadow of a shade tree, for example. Try to remember that Mary is our Mama and think of how little children are when they need protection. They run to their mama and stand close to them, often positioning themselves such that their mamas are positioned between them and whatever threatens. In their mama’s shadow, relative to the threat, as it were. Crossing of arms refers to the way a mother lovingly holds her child.

Don’t worry about it. I didn’t get much of it myself before I had children of my own.
Thank you for this, that really helps, especially about the fountain part…it helps to get a different perspective.
 
STIOFÁN:
So who do you think was at the foot of the Cross ?
“Woman Behold thy Son, Son Behold thy Mother”.
Do you say that John was the brother of Jesus ?
If you believe that he was ,then who do you think Jesus was talking too, Himself ?
Wouldn’t Mary have already known that John was Her Son, why would Mary have to be told that John was Her son ?
Wouldn’t Mary have already known that John was Her son, without Jesus stating it.
Obviously John wasn’t Marys Son, :ehh:
I’m sure you had good intentions here, but…HUH? :confused:
 
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