In this video...

[ljubim]

What do the rubrics for adoration say about the priests gestures?

What’s that have to do with it?

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by Puritanism – not because I’m unaware of the Puritans, but because it’s a term that’s applied broadly and means different things to people. You’ll have to explain what you think is problematic with what I wrote there. I tried to look at it from a different perspective, but I’m not seeing the borderline heresy.

Just the idea of removing all elements of beauty from the liturgy and simplifying it to banality. I read the phrase elsewhere, but the people who think this way are ones who disdain cathedrals, sacred music and would prefer a meeting hall. They will distort history, for example the account of the Last Supper, and try to change things in the Church based on their incorrect historical understandings.

Drat. I was hoping that the force of my logic would instantly win you over to my perspective

haha

Me too. Apparently we have different faithful or a different area, because I have seen positive results.

What kind of results have you seen from the Christian pop music/Lifeteen stuff, in the long term?

What I’ve seen short term is good, as in being caught in the moment with the music, being temporarily moved emotionally. In the long term, total misunderstanding of and irreverence toward the Real Presence(not just my opinion of irreverence either), disregard for the sacraments(specifically confession!!!), disassociation with the rest of the faithful, being more ready/willing to show off, carelessness/casualness towards the Mass, breaking of the rubrics and the encouragement of liturgical abuse, receding away from traditional prayers in favor of the “personal relationship” stuff so many Protestants talk about, and disregard towards educating oneself about the faith.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that they are there for the music. As a church musician involved in youth ministry for a number of years, I can say that, compared to what goes on at secular concerts, the music isn’t that entertaining. I include my own work in that assessment, although I haven’t exactly been striving to make it entertaining, since I am well aware that it isn’t the point. Catholic pop music pales in comparison to generic Christian pop music, which in turn doesn’t compare well with secular pop music.

I agree it’s pretty bad, but after the adoration party we had one time :banghead: people were shouting out requests for songs. They’d been holding this in all adoration (as the band played). (Btw the music is rousing I guess… it’s really loud and has a fast, really penetrating beat - because of the volume )

Having been a part of charismatic groups, both protestant and Catholic (I’m a convert), I am well aware of a tendency towards emotional hype. The answer isn’t to suppress emotions altogether. Instead, we ought to be teaching our children and youth how to discern what is occurring in their hearts, and train them in the virtues so that they can keep their emotions rightly ordered.

I totally agree! This doesn’t happen where I’m from though

Young adult chaperone.

Ok, right between The adults definitely see things differently in my area, compared to our perspective.

 

[Prometheum_x]

What’s that have to do with it?

Namely, in adoration, the stretching out of one’s hands towards the Blessed Sacrament is not an imitation of any specified priestly action, and therefore, I think there is very little risk of anyone thinking they are somehow being priest-like. I have certainly never made that connection.

Just the idea of removing all elements of beauty from the liturgy and simplifying it to banality.

I am certainly not advocating that. I was trying to state the logical extreme of an anti-emotion position – an anti-emotion position would be against all beauty too, since beauty can powerfully affect the emotions.

What kind of results have you seen from the Christian pop music/Lifeteen stuff, in the long term?

What I’ve seen short term is good, as in being caught in the moment with the music, being temporarily moved emotionally. In the long term, total misunderstanding of and irreverence toward the Real Presence(not just my opinion of irreverence either), disregard for the sacraments(specifically confession!!!), disassociation with the rest of the faithful, being more ready/willing to show off, carelessness/casualness towards the Mass, breaking of the rubrics and the encouragement of liturgical abuse, receding away from traditional prayers in favor of the “personal relationship” stuff so many Protestants talk about, and disregard towards educating oneself about the faith.

In the long term, a countable result that I have seen is a number of vocations to the priesthood and religious life. Not at all discounting what you have witnessed, my personal experience has been the opposite of everything you listed above. This leads me to an important point – music in and of itself does not have the power to cause all of this. If a youth program thinks that they can just play a certain style of music and achieve certain results, they will see all of the above problems (or others). The music can only assist or frustrate what is already happening in the spiritual life of the parish. My experience has been that within these different styles of music there are good and bad ways of playing the music (as well as good and bad songs).

I’ve also known people that love traditional music and who suffer from a pharisaical pride that masquerades as reverence and liturgical propriety. I’m not sure which extreme is more damaging, spiritually speaking.

I agree it’s pretty bad, but after the adoration party we had one time :banghead: people were shouting out requests for songs. They’d been holding this in all adoration (as the band played). (Btw the music is rousing I guess… it’s really loud and has a fast, really penetrating beat - because of the volume )

Adoration party? Yeah, that’s a little odd [understatement]. As for rousing music, some of that is ok – it’s a problem when it’s used to the extent that it dulls the brain. Rousing music to lift the spirits: good. Rousing music to the point of emotional inebriation: bad.

 

[ljubim]

Namely, in adoration, the stretching out of one’s hands towards the Blessed Sacrament is not an imitation of any specified priestly action, and therefore, I think there is very little risk of anyone thinking they are somehow being priest-like. I have certainly never made that connection.

But that’s where the reaching arms out came from originally… I’m thinking of this posture in general.

I’ve also known people that love traditional music and who suffer from a pharisaical pride that masquerades as reverence and liturgical propriety. I’m not sure which extreme is more damaging, spiritually speaking.

Good point, I think that can be a huge temptation with traditionals sometimes. Also some people who are disturbed by things they have seen in the Church will close off and will lash out just because of the pain they’re in. This isn’t the right way to go at all

Adoration party? Yeah, that’s a little odd [understatement]. As for rousing music, some of that is ok – it’s a problem when it’s used to the extent that it dulls the brain. Rousing music to lift the spirits: good. Rousing music to the point of emotional inebriation: bad.

I know I put in a question about it to AAA just to make sure I was correct and not judging based on my taste, because people around me didn’t see anything wrong with it. I guess the problem I have with this kind of music being used rather than the tried and true hymns (like they had an edited Tantum Ergo ) is that it seems to accompany hand-in-hand experimentation with the rubrics. The very nature of trying to depart from the teaching of the Church with regards to music (as set out in Musicam Sacram and other documents) is the indication of a certain mindset that has no problem breaking or stretching rules. So once you mess around with music, odds are high that you’ll mess around with something else too.

Plus, once the faithful have been confused enough, they have no set norms to base right from wrong (in the Church) off of, and then you can make any sort of change and they will instantly give excuses of why this is ok, because they have precedents from the past to justify departing from the norms, and no precedent to base liturgical obedience on.

I really see the charismatic hands and contemporary Catholic rock/pop as just another product of liturgical innovation that the Church HAS spoken against, when it’s used in the liturgical setting. But just as in other cases, people don’t want to listen.