In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

[ringil]

In order for Evolution to occur, death must occur. But death did not come into the world until original sin (this is Church doctrine), therefore Evolution (if it did occur) could not occur until after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Your statement is biblical literalism which isn’t characteristic of Catholic study of Sacred Scripture.

What has led to you reading the Bible in this literal way?

 

[grannymh]

Hi, Grannymh,

The CCC provides a good answer - here is a link: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm Take a look at #374.

In #376, the Catechism states:

“By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy…”

Now, maybe I jumped the gun here when I said Perfect Happiness - but, I did not mean the Beatific Vision. Before sin, Adam and Eve lived in Paradise (which really seems like a very happy place to be). Before sin, the only request for something that Adam found lacking (we now see this may not have been ‘Perfect’ Happiness) was he needed a helpmate like himself. God provided Eve - and Adam seems to be quite happy.

All I am addressing is the state of Adam and Eve before sin. They lived very happy lives with all of nature in harmony.

God bless

What I am trying to point out is that it is important to go into the depth of pre-Fall existence. For example. To understand the limits of Adam’s happiness, one needs to study CCC 396. The glitch comes when one tries to tie CCC 355- 421 together to form the actual reality of Adam’s life.

The reality of Adam’s life appears beyond human comprehension once one studies CCC 404. Here the Catholic Church deals with the “unity of the human race” and the mystery of the transmission of Original Sin. Footnote 294 cites Council of Trent: DS 1511-1512 in this matter. As you know, Council declarations of Divine Revelation are protected by the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit – as promised by Jesus Christ in Chapter 14, Gospel of John.

I am starting to think that one of the problems on this thread could be that people are not sure how natural science discoveries relate or not relate to Catholic doctrines when some figurative language is used in regard to the reality of human origin and the real event of Original Sin. (Off line, I am involved in editing/writing about the Catholic theological reality of Adam in the midst of 21st century evolution models.)

My apology. Due to some commitments, I cannot explore what is left of the original 46% until much later.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Your statement is biblical literalism which isn’t characteristic of Catholic study of Sacred Scripture.

What has led to you reading the Bible in this literal way?

When did death come into the world? and why did death come into the world?

 

[Robertanthony]

Your statement is biblical literalism which isn’t characteristic of Catholic study of Sacred Scripture.

What has led to you reading the Bible in this literal way?

What is it? Death didn’t enter the world until they sinned. What is that supposed to mean, why does it have to be so complicated. Are we talking spiritual death, the end of friendship with God, that being so dinosaurs could still have roamed the Earth millions of years before a handful of earth was turned into Adam and gone extinct without contradicting the “death entered the world” passage. If life was a given and death was out of the equation, why was there a Tree of Life (guarded by cherubs with flaming swords) to begin with?

 

[vz71]

If the earth is millions of years old (or billions as they suggest), but no animal could die before the fall of Adam and Eve, either the world filled with animals before Adam and Eve, or they did not reproduce. Either that or Adam and Eve and humanity must have lived just as long as the animals. and Natural Selection couldn’t have worked before the Fall because it needed death, which could not exist until Sin came into the world.

Or perhaps the animals lived and died as usual and Adam and Eve did not until the fall.

And also consider that perhaps natural selection was not the driving force.

 

[grannymh]

The Catholic statement on creation is that humans could have evolved from lower species. I feel this is a politically correct view. I also believe it borders on cowardice. How dare any man water down the gospels?

Briefly, the problem here is that the Catholic definition of human does not coincide with the “evolutionary” term homo (man). This discrepancy is in research papers and appears in “evolution” displays, for example the Natural History Museum in London.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Or perhaps the animals lived and died as usual and Adam and Eve did not until the fall.

And also consider that perhaps natural selection was not the driving force.

but according to Tradition, death did not come into the world until the Fall of Man. All the earth was affected by original sin, not just man. Earth was paradise for a reason. Death is not supposed to happen at all.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Or perhaps the animals lived and died as usual and Adam and Eve did not until the fall.

And also consider that perhaps natural selection was not the driving force.

How could animals evolve without natural selection? The mutations would happen, but without death none of these mutations would be favored enough to replace the original population.

 

[Robertanthony]

Your statement is biblical literalism which isn’t characteristic of Catholic study of Sacred Scripture.

What has led to you reading the Bible in this literal way?

“Adam lived to be 950 (or whatever it was) years and died”. Why should I doubt a statememnt like that. Why can’t we take a mention of someone’s age at face value. Why would someone write in a God-inspired book a mundane fact (the length of someone’s life) that is not factually true. Then someone will try to explain that back in those days people lived much longer because there hadn’t been many genetic alterations/deterioration yet, another one will come and say that 950 was probably more like 95 and could mean anything from 75 to 120. Consanguinity is a huge problem now but it was not when Adam’s brotheres and sisters married each other and procreated?

 

[Not_Sure_1]

What is it? Death didn’t enter the world until they sinned. What is that supposed to mean, why does it have to be so complicated. Are we talking spiritual death, the end of friendship with God, that being so dinosaurs could still have roamed the Earth millions of years before a handful of earth was turned into Adam and gone extinct without contradicting the “death entered the world” passage. If life was a given and death was out of the equation, why was there a Tree of Life (guarded by cherubs with flaming swords) to begin with?

Death is death. There was no death before the Fall. The Fall changed everything.
The Tree of Life was our promise. We were supposed to partake of it, but we did not because we fell. We rejected the Lord and so we were cast from the Tree of Life. If we had listened to God and then partook of the Tree of Life, we would have fulfilled our purpose and become partakers in the divinity (glorified bodies, just like in heaven).

 

[Not_Sure_1]

“Adam lived to be 950 (or whatever it was) years and died”. Why should I doubt a statememnt like that. Why can’t we take a mention of someone’s age at face value. Why would someone write in a God-inspired book a mundane fact (the length of someone’s life) that is not factually true. Then someone will try to explain that back in those days people lived much longer because there hadn’t been many genetic alterations/deterioration yet, another one will come and say that 950 was probably more like 95 and could mean anything from 75 to 120.

Genesis chapter 5 was all about the ages of man. I don’t see any metaphor or allegory in that passage.

 

[vz71]

but according to Tradition, death did not come into the world until the Fall of Man. All the earth was affected by original sin, not just man. Earth was paradise for a reason. Death is not supposed to happen at all.

What death are we speaking of?
Spritual death? Physical death? Both? Neither?

 

[grannymh]

Could there be death before sin? No (that is doctrine)

Please double check your source for that doctrine. I am very interested in how it is actually worded.

It is my understanding that as long as he remained in God’s friendship, Adam would not have to suffer or die. However, Adam being created, he would also be mortal like other creatures. Even though man’s nature is mortal, God had destined Adam not to die. Adam would be immune to bodily death had he not sinned.

 

[vz71]

How could animals evolve without natural selection? The mutations would happen, but without death none of these mutations would be favored enough to replace the original population.

That is the basis for my question.
How do we know natural selection was really the driving force behind all of these species changes?
Perhaps it is not at all, and we need to consider something else causing it all.

 

[grannymh]

Death is death. There was no death before the Fall. The Fall changed everything.
The Tree of Life was our promise. We were supposed to partake of it, but we did not because we fell. We rejected the Lord and so we were cast from the Tree of Life. If we had listened to God and then partook of the Tree of Life, we would have fulfilled our purpose and become partakers in the divinity (glorified bodies, just like in heaven).

Very small comment. The above would be clearer if Adam was named as the person who "fell’.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

What death are we speaking of?
Spritual death? Physical death? Both? Neither?

We are all eternal. There is only one true death and that is spiritual death, the separation of a human from heaven. When death is spoken of in the bible I take it they are referring to that primary definition. This also applies to life, e.g. “You will not have life within you” should not be interpreted as you immediately stroke out

 

[ringil]

When did death come into the world? and why did death come into the world?

Living things die. They have always died. Ameobas die.

From the beginning everything died except Angels, and Demons.

Again, how did you come to read the Bible in this rather un-orthodox way?

 

[ringil]

but according to Tradition, death did not come into the world until the Fall of Man. All the earth was affected by original sin, not just man. Earth was paradise for a reason. Death is not supposed to happen at all.

What is Death in the context of Scripture?

 

[vz71]

Living things die.

Correction…
Many living things die.

Our souls are immortal, therefore we can continue beyond physical death.

 

[ringil]

Correction…
Many living things die.

Our souls are immortal, therefore we can continue beyond physical death.

OK corporeal things die.