In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

[MichaelTDoyle]

Belief in the supernatural is one thing. Believing our world is something out of a cliched, Christian Fantasy RPG is another. And on that note, much of the Pentateuch violates everything from the laws of physics to chemistry.

Wake me up when you can turn a staff into a snake.

You don’t think David Copperfield can “turn a staff into a snake”?

You should really get that book I suggested. Biblical exegesis is NOT a simple field. You don’t strike me as more learned than the Pope and he has been meditating, studying and striving to get a deeper understanding of this material for his whole life.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What fantastical elements?

1. The fact that all matter in the seas and in the sky suddenly transfigured into breathing organisms (e.g. water turning into fish, air turning into birds, plants just sprouting out of raw dirt).
2. The stars in the sky aren’t in space but in a big dome.
3. That the ocean is in fact one large basin. (Oh and on that point, geography says hi.)
4. The stars are not really in space but dotted in a dome over a flat earth. (Astronomy says hi too.)
5. That H2O can suddenly develop hemoglobin, iron, plasma, and all other properties of red blood.

Every day we hear about fantastical stories… like that offspring of one species emerge a different species; like that everything came out of nothing; like that in all areas of existence order must be maintained but that when it comes to existence itself, the order just *is; *like that there are bookcases’ full of information in *one *tiny cell, but that this just comes about through random chance;…

See my profile? It says Catholic. I’m not contesting God’s existence or His hand in our creation. What I am contesting is the absurdity of Bible literalism. The randomness of atheistic evolution is a philosophical position. Not a scientific one.

I am not any particular type of creationist: i simply believe that God created the world, that He created however He wanted to, and that we don’t know and won’t find out in this life how He did it. It may have been through His guided evolution; it may have been exactly as recounted in Sacred Scripture; what does it matter?

It matters because it violates what mankind knows for certain about the way the very fabric of reality works. Again, we live in a world that’s moved by the laws of science, not magic!

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Again, we live in a world that’s moved by the laws of science, not magic!

What, besides magic, can explain the “laws” which science describes?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You don’t think David Copperfield can “turn a staff into a snake”?

You should really get that book I suggested. Biblical exegesis is NOT a simple field. You don’t strike me as more learned than the Pope and he has been meditating, studying and striving to get a deeper understanding of this material for his whole life.

Look, I don’t care if your explanation is some sleigh-o-hand magic trick. It just proves my point. What we read in myths, the actual, literal images we read in stories like in Genesis are all simply impossible!

Anything less than what’s literal means you’re already on the slope.

 

[ringil]

Belief in the supernatural is one thing. Believing our world is something out of a cliched, Christian Fantasy RPG is another. And on that note, much of the Pentateuch violates everything from the laws of physics to chemistry.

Wake me up when you can turn a staff into a snake.

St. Michael, equipped with a flame sword +1 drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden.

 

[exnihilo]

I’m not contesting God’s existence or His hand in our creation. What I am contesting is the absurdity of Bible literalism…

1. The fact that all matter in the seas and in the sky suddenly transfigured into breathing organisms (e.g. water turning into fish, air turning into birds, plants just sprouting out of raw dirt).
2. The stars in the sky aren’t in space but in a big dome.
3. That the ocean is in fact one large basin. (Oh and on that point, geography says hi.)
4. The stars are not really in space but dotted in a dome over a flat earth. (Astronomy says hi too.)
5. That H2O can suddenly develop hemoglobin, iron, plasma, and all other properties of red blood.

I’m really confused. You are pointing out what you call the absurdity of Biblical literalism and your first point is:

‘The fact that all matter in the seas and in the sky suddenly transfigured into breathing organisms (e.g. water turning into fish, air turning into birds, plants just sprouting out of raw dirt)’

That is exactly what evolution says. Inanimate matter was animated. I guess you are saying that is absurd if it happens in a second but perfectly reasonable if it happens over some arbitrary length of time you have proscribe as being reasonable. Actually the absurdity is solely in it happening at all absent God. To limit the eternal Creator to working within your idea of a reasonable time is wholly unreasonable.

 

[St_Francis]

1. The fact that all matter in the seas and in the sky suddenly transfigured into breathing organisms (e.g. water turning into fish, air turning into birds, plants just sprouting out of raw dirt).

Ditto post above I was scratching my head there for this one!

1. That the ocean is in fact one large basin. (Oh and on that point, geography says hi.)

Check out the Mediterreanean

1. The stars in the sky aren’t in space but in a big dome.

1. The stars are not really in space but dotted in a dome over a flat earth. (Astronomy says hi too.)

Just as we are limited by language, so sometimes is God. I don’t think that there are people who believe that outer space doesn’t exist and that there is an actual dome…

1. That H2O can suddenly develop hemoglobin, iron, plasma, and all other properties of red blood.

Are you saying that you don’t believe in miracles?

See my profile? It says Catholic. I’m not contesting God’s existence or His hand in our creation. What I am contesting is the absurdity of Bible literalism. The randomness of atheistic evolution is a philosophical position. Not a scientific one.

Oh, ok, we half-agree then

It matters because it violates what mankind knows for certain about the way the very fabric of reality works. Again, we live in a world that’s moved by the laws of science, not magic!

Again, miracles?

 

[Petergee]

I’ve never met a Catholic who doesn’t acknowledge the basic tenets of evolution.

I have never met a Catholic who believes that man walked with dinosaurs.

I have never met a Catholic who believes the world is 6000 years old.

Frankly, it’s embarrassing.

Me neither.

Then again, I’ve never visited the USA.

 

[Petergee]

1. That the ocean is in fact one large basin. (Oh and on that point, geography says hi.)

Yes it does. All of the oceans and seas in the world join up with each other to form what we all (yes including all modern geographers, and even you) call the ocean or the sea.

1. The stars are not really in space but dotted in a dome over a flat earth. (Astronomy says hi too.)

What verse of the Bible says this, even metaphorically? If you mean the reference to “the four corners of the earth” this does not mean that the earth is a plane quadrilateral. Check the Hebrew word translated as “corners”. More like we speak of the “quarters” of a city (there may be more or fewer than four of them, and the city is not a plane quadrilateral). In fact the Bible speaks of the earth as a “globe” i.e. a sphere.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Actually the absurdity is solely in it happening at all absent God. To limit the eternal Creator to working within your idea of a reasonable time is wholly unreasonable.

Where did I say God was absent? Again, evolution is all about the how. It doesn’t see who or why. Just how.

In the same manner, Bible literalists have to prove HOW Ancient Egyptian pagans performed what sounds like blood magic straight out Dragon Age.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Again, miracles?

Again, Egyptian pagans?
You don’t seriously expect me to believe that the stuff in The Mummy is actually possible?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Yes it does. All of the oceans and seas in the world join up with each other to form what we all (yes including all modern geographers, and even you) call the ocean or the sea.

I meant a literal basin. You know, like this?

What verse of the Bible says this, even metaphorically? If you mean the reference to “the four corners of the earth” this does not mean that the earth is a plane quadrilateral. Check the Hebrew word translated as “corners”. More like we speak of the “quarters” of a city (there may be more or fewer than four of them, and the city is not a plane quadrilateral). In fact the Bible speaks of the earth as a “globe” i.e. a sphere.

Even so, Christian Europeans believed in a Flat Earth. That says a lot. Furthermore, I was focusing more on the fact that all celestial bodies are apparently contained in a big magic dome.

 

[Nec5]

Again, Egyptian pagans?
You don’t seriously expect me to believe that the stuff in The Mummy is actually possible?

What about magically multiplying loaves of bread or turning water to wine with but a gesture? I think we had this debate before and it was locked?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What about magically multiplying loaves of bread or turning water to wine with but a gesture? I think we had this debate before and it was locked?

That’s Jesus you’re talking about. Remember?

 

[samiam1611]

A most excellent post; among a number of excellent posts in this thread. But on re-reading it, I come to understand why threads on evolution are banned in some places. Surely those who want to reject science would at least read a couple of Wikipedia articles?

Yeah I think people don’t like to think of us as being extra-smart animals, you know, we’re a “special creation” and whatnot. We are all equals in Nature’s eyes though (so to speak).

Nope. Not valid. As a designer, I would use the same instructions to build similar creatures with similar body plans. No common ancestor, just a designer. I suggest you read how after millions of years, something that was not necessary, existed. It’s all about switches, not pathways.

Yeah that probably got switched on due to the environment and those whose switch got turned on passed their already on switch to their offspring.

I suggest you read how after millions of years, something that was not necessary, existed.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110711151453.htm

Thank you for pointing me to this new information.
To the right of your article is 8 articles about common descent-natural selection-evolution. I suggest you read those.

All the data was loaded in the beginning.

All the data?

 

[Petergee]

I meant a literal basin. You know, like this?

Where does the Bible say that the ocean is a ceramic basin? Even metaphorically?

Even so,

I take it you mean “there is no such verse saying the earth is flat, I just pretended that there was to make my argument sound more dramatic”

Christian Europeans believed in a Flat Earth. That says a lot.

They absolutely did not! Even in the Old Testament the earth is described as a sphere. All educated people (probably even the uneducated people) in the western world knew that the earth is a sphere since before there was any such thing as Christianity. The fact that you would recycle this myth which was invented by the 19th century anti-Catholic propagandist Washington Irving, says a lot.

Furthermore, I was focusing more on the fact that all celestial bodies are apparently contained in a big magic dome.

“apparently”? You mean that the Bible does not actually literally say that, it is something you made up based on your interpretation of something in the Bible.

 

[St_Francis]

… would at least read a couple of Wikipedia articles?

Good advice for all

Even so, Christian Europeans believed in a Flat Earth…

Link to Wikipedia article on the mythological “medieval belief in a flat earth.”

 

[St_Francis]

Yeah I think people don’t like to think of us as being extra-smart animals, you know, we’re a “special creation” and whatnot. We are all equals in Nature’s eyes though (so to speak).

Yeah, there’s nothing differentiating us from animals…

Yeah that probably got switched on due to the environment and those whose switch got turned on passed their already on switch to their offspring.

Oh, have they found a switch, or is this also a made-up idea?

 

[St_Francis]

Again, Egyptian pagans?
You don’t seriously expect me to believe that the stuff in The Mummy is actually possible?

Who knows why God allowed that to happen, but He seems to have done so.

You know, CS Lewis talks about people doing what you are doing (which is called a strawman argument). He says people say regarding the Devil, Oh, you expect me to believe in a man with red tights and a tail? Give me a break! (OK, Lewis put it *much *more elegantly!) with the result that people stop believing in the Devil, which is a very dangerous thing to do.

St Mattthew 7:22, 23: Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

 

[samiam1611]

Yeah, there’s nothing differentiating us from animals…

There are many differences between us and our animal friends. but our similarities are undeniable and I believe evolution (common descent) explains these similarities quite well.

Oh, have they found a switch, or is this also a made-up idea?

See Ed’s link.