In what do atheists have Hope?

[JDaniel]

A little background: I have been through the stages. As a kid, I was expected to attend Mass with my family. Through grade school and high school, I had no deep thoughts about the possibility of beyond life. In college - a Catholic college, at that - I began to doubt life after death and the existence of God.

So, in my freshman year, I decided that I was an agnostic. I believed that there were no valid reasons to support an affirmation of God. By my junior year, I had become a full-fledged atheist. My atheism carried on out into the world of life, work, marriage, kids, etc.

When I graduated college, I was a Philosophy major and a Chemistry minor.

Then, I had a personal revelation that I could not (and still cannot) describe as anything less than that I was given a glimpse into the supernatural. I took up Aquinas again, and began re-reading him. The logic of the “5 ways” convinced me that I had been wrong. Not only was there God, but also, there had to be God.

During my lifetime, I have been a millionaire, a father to three wonderful children, all of whom I love dearly, a relatively devoted husband , a business owner, the owner of fast, expensive cars, possessing the capability of going anywhere at any time, and, generally, became that person that has so much that he’s impossible to buy a gift for. For all of this, there persisted a hole right in the middle of me. All of this stuff didn’t amount to a gnat, as I mentioned in another thread. It left me unquenched. It left me with nothing that I could reasonably define as “hope”.

As time went along, I was slowly becoming a lazy Catholic. I did not press my kids to go to Church, I did not press that my wife convert from Lutheranism, I skipped Mass due to work and time constraints - I became the epitome of a pseudo-religious materialist. However, the certainty that Aquinas’ proofs gave to me never left me.

When I came out of my atheism stage, the idea of Hope made perfect sense. What we call the higher (or, theological) form of hope had secure grounding in the inescapable truths from Aquinas" proofs. God existed, for me, so it was easy to position him as the object of good that I hoped to achieve by the end of my life. That idea gave me comfort, faith and a continuously growing hope.

It was not until I became aware, through my joining CAF, that there was a world of people out there who, at most, vehemently hated God (the “idea” of God), therefore he doesn’t exist, or, at the least, disbelieve that the god was the Catholic God. In reading the posts of these people, there did not appear to be any sense of “longing”, or missing something. Maybe a little hostility, but, I explained that away by thinking that they must have come from another forum where anger was a persistent mantra.

I have a question that requires seriousness and absolute honesty. It is not directed at those members who are “churched”, but, rather it is aimed at the agnostics, atheists and non-theists. Here it is:

If the “good” that is God is not the object of hope for you, what is?

Life itself is not doing it for me. The universe does not do it for me. The grand pursuit of pleasure does not do it for me. There are others, none of which do it for me. I believe that any honest agnostic, atheist, or non-theist would have to agree, if these questions were asked silently, in themselves, and answered with sublime honest-ness.

I need your help. You are, obviously, persevering. What causes you to persevere? What keeps you from giving it up to the sea, as the three football players just did? Or, what would cause you to give up on striving?

jd

 

[crowonsnow]

I need your help. You are, obviously, persevering. What causes you to persevere? What keeps you from giving it up to the sea, as the three football players just did? Or, what would cause you to give up on striving?

I cannot think of any situation in life that as you say would cause me to “give up.”

I have children too. I love them. That’s reason enough to have hope by my reckoning. Even when I was young and taught to practice god belief I still loved those around me more than I could ever feel an attachment to some invisible concept. So my kids and family always came first.

Beyond that I feel an attachment to my ancestors and descendants both generally and personally. In essence I’m them and they are me. There’s a mountain of strength there when, as you say, the sea of life gets rough. To “give up” is to betray an unbreakable bond and kinship. A lot of lives have come and gone so that I can live. “Giving up” is just not an option.

And someone who doesn’t think Yahweh is real isn’t a Yahweh hater. That’s pretty weird. Kids don’t stop practicing Santa belief because they become Santa haters. People don’t stop practicing religion because they become religion haters. Your own religious genealogy is probably pretty interesting. Everyone’s is.

 

[JDaniel]

I cannot think of any situation in life that as you say would cause me to “give up.”

I have children too. I love them. That’s reason enough to have hope by my reckoning. Even when I was young and taught to practice god belief I still loved those around me more than I could ever feel an attachment to some invisible concept. So my kids and family always came first.

Beyond that I feel an attachment to my ancestors and descendants both generally and personally. In essence I’m them and they are me. There’s a mountain of strength there when, as you say, the sea of life gets rough. To “give up” is to betray an unbreakable bond and kinship. A lot of lives have come and gone so that I can live. “Giving up” is just not an option.

And someone who doesn’t think Yahweh is real isn’t a Yahweh hater. That’s pretty weird. Kids don’t stop practicing Santa belief because they become Santa haters. People don’t stop practicing religion because they become religion haters. Your own religious genealogy is probably pretty interesting. Everyone’s is.

Crow:

Thank you. An excellent reply. I need to ponder it for a while. Then I might have more questions.

Sincerely,
jd

 

[MindOverMatter]

To “give up” is to betray an unbreakable bond and kinship. A lot of lives have come and gone so that I can live. “Giving up” is just not an option.

I hope you don’t mind me entering the conversation with a few questions. I mean no disrespect by these questions. I am honestly interested in your motivations for existing.

You said that you would be betraying those who came before you. This is a moral statement, as if to say that you would feel wrong for committing suicide. Where does this sense of loyalty come from? Is this purely a subjective idea that you have, or do you think it is a objective moral “truth” that you ought to fulfill? Is it something you just feel, or is it a principle that you made up and live by in order to give your life a sense of meaning? Why do you think that you owe them something?

If you admit that these feelings of loyalty are just prideful ethical invention of the human imagination, then why favor such fantasies over a God that will provide you with the positive realities of an objective purpose, moral value, meaning and the promise of eternal perfection?

You also spoke of children. Children can give us a sense of purpose and duty; its one of a few things in this life worth living for. But do you feel justified for bringing them into a Godless existence fall of potential horror, despair and the cold and lonely inevitability of death, just so that we can feel as if our lives have a meaning and purpose? And if so, why? Wouldn’t it not be more loving and reasonable for the human race to become sterile so that future generations won’t have to suffer the objective meaninglessness and disparity of existence? Why give future generations up to the genetic slavery of survival, just because we enjoy having sexual relationships?

Personally, if there is no God, i find it hard to have much respect for my Father.

Peace.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I have hope in making a difference in somebody’s life… So far, so good.

I have even bigger hopes in having a decent impact on the world through writing. It would be great to become the next JK Rowling-- or perhaps I should say the next Christopher Hitchens.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[Charlemagne_II]

crowonsnow

And someone who doesn’t think Yahweh is real isn’t a Yahweh hater. That’s pretty weird.

Yes it is weird, but still true that many atheists are virulently angry in their comments about God. They are also quite often contemptuous of people who believe in God. If you don’t think so, read Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, two of the most hateful atheists of our time.

I say this by way of an honest search for the truth in this matter, not by way of starting an argument, so this will be my last first and last visit to this thread.

What do I hope for? That atheists will find their hope in God.

 

[JDaniel]

crowonsnow

And someone who doesn’t think Yahweh is real isn’t a Yahweh hater. That’s pretty weird.

Yes it is weird, but still true that many atheists are virulently angry in their comments about God. They are also quite often contemptuous of people who believe in God. If you don’t think so, read Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, two of the most hateful atheists of our time.

I say this by way of an honest search for the truth in this matter, not by way of starting an argument, so this will be my last first and last visit to this thread.

What do I hope for? That atheists will find their hope in God.

Charlemagne II:

Don’t leave the thread altogether. Read it, then selectively participate. Your declared hope is interesting in that it does presuppose that God is true existence. So, it’s a sub-hope of the hope for God. Right?

jd

 

[Spock]

Not much to add to what crowonsnow said. (Great name, BTW! Schwarzaufweiss )

Life is wonderful and complex. Great experiences and sometime bad things happen. Usually, for most people, the good is significantly more than the bad. Right now, I am looking forward to travel to Europe by a transatlantic cruise and will stay with my grandson (and the other members of my family) for many months. Isn’t that a great reason to be happy?

As for hoping to have some form of afterlife: it would be great not to be confined to a few decades of existence. I would prefer life here, but if there is a continuation, I would welcome that, too. I would be more than happy, if I could meet my parents, and tell them again, how much I love them. (Fortunately I did it when they were alive). I just cannot believe that there is.

Of course, there is no hate in me toward believers. They are free to conduct their life as they see it best. Moreover, I know that they have something I don’t have. They have the feeling of unity with their respective deity, and they may experience religious rapture, which - as I was told - is a wonderful thing to have. Of course something akin to that can be achieved by intense meditation, or taking some drugs, too.

None of the so-called philosophical “proofs” for God are even remotely convincing to me. (The 5 proof of Aquinas were adequately refuted by Kant.) They are all based upon invalid premises, undefined and undefinable basic assumptions. In other words, they are the equivalents of asking the question: “what resides to the north from the North Pole?”. Invalid questions, without a possibility of answers.

Let me ask you something. You believe that the natural universe needs some explanation for its existence, or the existence of some of its attributes. For you the answer: “it is just what it is, without need of explanation” is insufficient. Yet, if the same question would be directed toward God’s existence, you would easily accept that God needs no explanation for his existence, God just exists. So you entertain the same principle (as we do) that there is something final, without need for explanation, which just “is”. Why are you surprised that for us, atheists, the final existence is the natural universe? It needs no “external” cause, it needs no explanation, it just “is”.

I am not even invoking the principle of Occam’s razor, though it is tempting. The problem is that you substitute something which clearly exists (the natural universe) with something for what there is absolutely no proof. (You may say that there is “evidence”, but that evidence is clearly insufficient for the atheists.) And in this process you invoke “magic”. Just how did God create the universe? He “willed” it? How is that different from magic? How is that an explanation? How does that clarify the process?

Sorry, if I said stuff beyond the intent of this thread. Please disregard this post if Idid. Best wishes.

 

[crowonsnow]

You said that you would be betraying those who came before you. This is a moral statement, as if to say that you would feel wrong for committing suicide. Where does this sense of loyalty come from? Is this purely a subjective idea that you have, or do you think it is a objective moral “truth” that you ought to fulfill? Is it something you just feel, or is it a principle that you made up and live by in order to give your life a sense of meaning? Why do you think that you owe them something?

Loyalty is a behavior that has been selected for. The object of that loyalty differs person to person but the behavior is the same. So that’s a question for anyone, and the answers will be very similar, probably identical. I can see how someone could claim that my perceived kinship with my ancestors is just my pretending as much. And of course the claim can be made that religious people are just pretending that they really have these spirits all around them.

If you admit that these feelings of loyalty are just prideful ethical invention of the human imagination, then why favor such fantasies over a God that will provide you with the positive realities of an objective purpose, moral value, meaning and the promise of eternal perfection?

They’re not my inventions. They are behaviors that have been selected for. As for favoring one object over another, that’s a personal decision.

You also spoke of children. Children can give us a sense of purpose and duty; its one of a few things in this life worth living for. But do you feel justified for bringing them into a Godless existence fall of potential horror, despair and the cold and lonely inevitability of death, just so that we can feel as if our lives have a meaning and purpose? And if so, why? Wouldn’t it not be more loving and reasonable for the human race to become sterile so that future generations won’t have to suffer the objective meaninglessness and disparity of existence? Why give future generations up to the genetic slavery of survival, just because we enjoy having sexual relationships?

Personally, if there is no God, i find it hard to have much respect for my Father.

I can honestly say I don’t identify with any of those presumptions or conclusions. Maybe I just came from a loving family. I never asked my parents if I was more important to them than their religion but if their actions were any indication they always put the welfare of their kids first. So did I.

And even though I was schooled to practice religious belief I never associated that religious belief with being necessary to love someone. You’d have to be pretty cold to tell someone “I cannot love you if there is no god.”

The catholic religion should welcome persons who know that gods are not real. That would obviously necessitate everyone being very mature, informed, and secure in their personal beliefs. It would be like a workplace where people have a common loyalty that is above religious and cultural differences. I can certainly imagine that happening one day.

 

[MindOverMatter]

L

The catholic religion should welcome persons who know that gods are not real.

There is no such thing as somebody who knows that God doesn’t exist.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Loyalty is a behavior that has been selected for.

So you are loyal, not because you choose, but because you have been naturally selected to be loyal. This is not a surprising response.

The object of that loyalty differs person to person but the behavior is the same. So that’s a question for anyone, and the answers will be very similar, probably identical. I can see how someone could claim that my perceived kinship with my ancestors is just my pretending as much. And of course the claim can be made that religious people are just pretending that they really have these spirits all around them.

There is a big difference between believing something one knows to be fantasy, and putting ones hope into something one does not know to be untrue. There is a possibility that God is real; and so far as the existence of God provides an objective purpose, meaning and value to our existence, anybody that is willing to put their wellbeing over pleasure and self glorification is likely to put there hope in God. You would unfortunately fit into the first category of believers

They’re not my inventions. They are behaviors that have been selected for.

Denial doesn’t bring as any closer to truth.

As for favoring one object over another, that’s a personal decision.

Precisely

I can honestly say I don’t identify with any of those presumptions or conclusions.

Its not surprising. But none of them are presumptions. They are all facts that follow necessarily from the non-existence of God.

Maybe I just came from a loving family. I never asked my parents if I was more important to them than their religion but if their actions were any indication they always put the welfare of their kids first. So did I.

They put there children first because they believe thats the right thing to do. They believe that they owe something to your existence. They think that you are their child whom they “ought” to love. They have beliefs, that they have been taught; that they have put first before they have chosen to act in any manner toward you as a living entity. Biological love has never been enough to ensure the healthy development of any child. Religion has always played an important role in terms of promoting the intrinsic value of a person in so far as they are creations of God; creations of an objective love. In the west, Atheistic families have grown up in a largely Christian culture, and they pick up much of their values from religion despite their knowledge or disbelief of that fact.

And even though I was schooled to practice religious belief I never associated that religious belief with being necessary to love someone.

Your right that you don’t have to believe in God to love some one. But if there is no God, then there is nothing wrong with being selfish.

You’d have to be pretty cold to tell someone “I cannot love you if there is no god.”

This is no different then saying that you don’t like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Its a matter of taste; not moral truth. The fact that you don’t like something, is not good enough reason for somebody to feel ashamed or guilty. On the other hand, I never said that one cannot love somebody. But in any case, the only reason that you love somebody is because its been selected for.

It would be like a workplace where people have a common loyalty that is above religious and cultural differences. I can certainly imagine that happening one day.

Although this is a nice fantasy, people have no moral obligation to be loyal or to respect religious and cultural differences, outside the existence of God.

 

[Namesake]

During my lifetime, I have been a millionaire, a father to three wonderful children, all of whom I love dearly, a relatively devoted husband , a business owner, the owner of fast, expensive cars, possessing the capability of going anywhere at any time, and, generally, became that person that has so much that he’s impossible to buy a gift for. For all of this, there persisted a hole right in the middle of me. All of this stuff didn’t amount to a gnat, as I mentioned in another thread. It left me unquenched. It left me with nothing that I could reasonably define as “hope”.

Hope for what?

 

[JDaniel]

Not much to add to what crowonsnow said. (
Sorry, if I said stuff beyond the intent of this thread. Please disregard this post if Idid. Best wishes.

Not a problem, Spockmeister! I don’t believe that life is wonderful. You are looking forward to what should be a great trip abroad. I’ve done that many times. So many times, in fact, that travel holds no interest for me any more. but, you are right: seeing a grandchild is a great reason to be happy. But, it doesn’t add anything to hope. I always hope so see my grandchild. But, that’s a different sort of hope, don’t you think? And, it is relatively easy to achieve. I define hope as the longing after something which is conceived as a good. It presupposes the recognition of a difficulty, or difficulties, that must be overcome.

I also recognize that there is at the least a prospect of a struggle. I don’t back down from a fight, as you have no doubt noticed. So, hope like this should excite me. I also recognize that the good that I am fighting for is attainable. Of course, this could be applied to any and all hoped for mundane goods. Money, travel, seeing the kids, a new BMW. But, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about those things hoped for that are more ultimate than these. You intimated some of them in your third paragraph. Your third paragraph I would rate a 10 on a scale of 10. You see, that’s what I want to do as well.

Paragraph number four is good, too. You are still expressing substantive hope. Unity with the deity, etc. I don’t do drugs, never and have never will, except for the occasional glass of good ruby port together with the amino acids of a good piece of tenderloin cooked by infrared.

As far as the next paragraph is concerned, here’s where we could debate for days. I don’t think Kant was intelligent enough to defrock St. Thomas’ proofs. But, this is neither the time nor the place. Perhaps another thread.

Actually, your next paragraph seems to be putting words into my mouth. Some of your assertions really make no sense. To think that the universe needs no external cause is to furiously deny causality. And, the atheist arguments for the denial of causality are the lamest excuses for argument I have ever read. It’s interesting. I could be swayed. I am vulnerable to that at this very moment, but, the basis of going back over to atheism for me will have to be much more powerful than the silly arguments that have heretofore been provided within the pages of CAF.

Finally, your last paragraph starts with a faulty premise. You state that I “substitute something which clearly exists (the natural universe) with something for what there is absolutely no proof.” that’s not the case at all. I place that which I believe to exist there, at that precise place, where science knows nothing at all. So, you see, I cannot believe that what you assert is what atheists believe. It has no gravitas, so to speak. It is mere irrational assertion, and, you know it. Give me something that will change the views I have, that are hanging on by threads.

I will be humbly attentive. I really appreciate your concern for my well being. Also, I will hope for your safe travel to and safe return.

Sincerely,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Loyalty is a behavior that has been selected for.

crow:

What does this mean?

jd

 

[JDaniel]

Hope for what?

For something beyond this life.

jd

 

[Namesake]

For something beyond this life.

jd

Why do you want more?

 

[crowonsnow]

What does this mean?

I mean that we have emotions. We naturally feel attached, devoted, bonded to things. We form kinships.

 

[JDaniel]

I mean that we have emotions. We naturally feel attached, devoted, bonded to things. We form kinships.

Perfect. Thanks.

jd

 

[JDaniel]

Why do you want more?

More of what?

jd

 

[Namesake]

More of what?

jd

More beyond this life.