Inappropriate T-Shirt in Mass

[He_Man]

Anyone?

No one will bite, I already tried. They stated a position of celebrating diversity and embracing sinners, but when called on it with an uncomfortable situation, they can’t defend it.

It is easy to defend homosexuality and atheism under the guise of charity, but no one wants to have the same attitude for rapists and pedophiles, who are equally as disturbed in the head. That’s why the notion of defending this tripe with the diversity flag is simply ridiculous.

 

[Catherine_W]

originally posted by Enoch: The OP said the t-shirt read “embrace IT”. What is the “IT” we are supposed to be embracing? People are not “its” but sins are.

I agree with Enoch. It seems the debate here is if the shirt is saying to embrace and love these people or to embrace these sins.

I take it to mean embrace the sins. If a shirt clearly promoted embracing people I would not get angry, maybe some of those words and may be inappropriate for mass, but the message may not be bad. However, I think this message takes on the attitude that there is no right and no wrong and that we need to embrace everything, including sinful behaviors. I don’t agree with the idea that there is no absolute right or wrong and everything is ok.

Like many of you have said, we do not know this persons specific situation and it would be best to talk to him with kindness, I like the inviting him to lunch idea to get to know him better and understand where he is coming from.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

If you were to say something, I’d say something like “well, I guess we got two sermons for the price of one today… one from the priest then a different one from reading your shirt”



Edit: I have to warn you though, people often have no idea what I’m trying to say, so take this advice with a grain of salt

I was hoping you all could tell me what would be the appropriate course of action in this situation. Today during Mass (the mass of the Lords Supper), the man sitting next to me had a t-shirt that said something like:

“Atheist, Catholic, Fat, Tall, Homosexual, Immigrant, Bisexual, Transgender, Hispanic, Black” …. And lots of other things…

Then below the list it said “We are all different Embrace it”

Do you think this is an appropriate shirt for Mass?
Should I have said something politely to him? And if so what should I have said? Should I say it out of concern for his soul or out of concern for other people at mass or out of concern for the Holy Eucharist? Would it be wrong to say something like “I do not think that shirt is appropriate for mass”? If some anger was evident in our voices would that be wrong?

My husband wanted to say something to him after mass, I said we should not say anything (I was worried that it would come across in anger). We didn’t say anything, but now we are wondering if we should have.

Thank you so much for your advice.

 

[rlg94086]

No one will bite, I already tried. They stated a position of celebrating diversity and embracing sinners, but when called on it with an uncomfortable situation, they can’t defend it.

It is easy to defend homosexuality and atheism under the guise of charity, but no one wants to have the same attitude for rapists and pedophiles, who are equally as disturbed in the head. That’s why the notion of defending this tripe with the diversity flag is simply ridiculous.

Actually, I don’t even think you have to take it that far, because it’s easy to say…“rape and pedophilia” are terrible crimes, not just sin.

So, let’s make it simpler. A skinhead is in the pew in front of you with a t-shirt that has “white pride world wide” on it. Is this okay? Diversity and all that? I mean, the shirt doesn’t say you should embrace the sin of racism, so why not join the loving parishioner in his call for “white pride?”

 

[TemplarKnight]

I’ll bite

Why even have sins?

If we’re supposed to accept sins, live with sins, not mind being around sins, not mind performing sins, then why do we have sins? You want to play the game but when the rules are explained, you don’t want to play by the rules. Then you want everyone to play the game they were happy playing by your rules. Then cry and moan when everyone puts up a fuss.

Are we supposed to embrace others…without a doubt. When those individuals want help, want to walk with the Lord, and want to repent.

 

[He_Man]

Actually, I don’t even think you have to take it that far, because it’s easy to say…“rape and pedophilia” are terrible crimes, not just sin.

So, let’s make it simpler. A skinhead is in the pew in front of you with a t-shirt that has “white pride world wide” on it. Is this okay? Diversity and all that? I mean, the shirt doesn’t say you should embrace the sin of racism, so why not join the loving parishioner in his call for “white pride?”

Agreed, I was just taking that silly notion to its logical end, since criminals are sinners too.

But yes, a white pride t-shirt, or even a race hating t-shirt that wasn’t illegal should supposedly be welcomed with open arms, in a garden of flowers, serenaded by the second movement of Beethovens Symphony No. 3 in E flat major, *Eroica. *

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hugs posters in topic

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, I *can *pick and choose which messages I find appropriate. I have the mental capacity and - I would say - even a moral obligation to do so.

In my opinion, I think that man’s T-shirt ought to be the official doctrine of the church. I wish the church was more open to people of all minorities.

We do embrace all minorities. We don’t embrace sin. And I have never met an immigrant or person of colour who thought that sexual sin was “okay with Jesus.” In fact I think they’d be the first to point out that these things are from Satan.

 

[Enoch]

Homosexual
Bisexual
Transgender
Pedophile
Porn Addict
Adulterer
Fornicator
Alcoholic
Drug Addict
Mental Illness
Mental Disability
Physical Disability

We are all different indeed, thus we all have different crosses to bear, obviously. It’s our job to embrace our unique cross, personally unite it with Christ’s suffering, and use it as a means of attaining heaven, not as a license or excuse to reject Christ’s teachings and indulge.

It’s the job of the Church (Body of Christ) to lift all of God’s children up, to teach, encourage and give them the means of grace to turn their own cross into a symbol of victory over sin, not defeat by sin, just as our Lord did.

 

[holdencaulfield]

A t-shirt alone is not appropriate for Mass. Someone should have said something.

 

[aboverubies]

Where is this T-shirt? I want to buy it. It sounds fantastic.

When do you get to the bit about “Go and sin no more”? On the back?

 

[Swan]

Also, it seems that most of the folks on this thread automatically assumed the T-shirt guy meant he supported sin, not that he embraced the sinner. Why is everyone so eager to interpret his stance in a negative way? His shirt said we should embrace everybody, no discrimination. This is a pretty Christian sentiment. But you’ve jumped to a negative conclusion. You have no idea how the guy feels so why not give him the beneift of the doubt? Why assume the worst? How about a little charity? I’ve seen a shirt that says “God Bless Everybody” - would you find that offensive too? There is a bit difference between this guy’s shirt, which really says “love everybody” to wearing something obscene. No one is condoning the latter.

I asked this earlier and no one said anything (though someone did comment on a separate part of the post which I didn’t copy here and which is really irrelevant to the question above).

So, I ask again, why is everyone so quick to assume the worst of this guy? It has been admitted that (1) the shirt could be interpreted in different ways, and (2) that you don’t know what the guy meant because no one asked him. Given these facts, you are guessing/assuming based on what??? Why can’t you give this guy the benefit of Christian charity?

 

[Schultzz]

I cannot read a man’s heart unless, of course, he is wearing it on his sleeve for the world to see.

Pascal is not a Saint or a Dr. of the Church, however, St. Theresa of Avila is. I suggest you read “The Way of Perfection” and you may understand what I’m talking about.

The OP said the t-shirt read “embrace IT”. What is the “IT” we are supposed to be embracing? People are not “its” but sins are.

Whenever you point your finger at someone there is ALWAYS three pointing back at you. Didn’t Jesus say something about the log in our eye? I could be mistaken but I sense some righteous indignation in your response. Could it be false pride? Saints are great models for us to strive toward. Yet “many are called but few are chosen”. Saints were not normal everyday people. I believe Jesus calls us to be the best we can for Him, but most great saints were chosen, and not everyone is chosen to lead that kind of lifestyle.
That’s not to say that God doesn’t have a plan for us. I know that He does. Some of us get lost in trying too hard to be something that we are not called to be. We ARE called to conversion from sin to holiness. I believe in prayer, frequent confession and communion, praying for the knowledge and willingness of God’s plan for me, and seeking intercession from the Blessed Mother and Her Saints. Yet I know what my calling is and that is what I am doing.
You couldn’t read a man’s heart if it were on his sleeve or in print right in front of you, and neither do you have the right to. Sins are not “its” either. They are past choices and wrong ones at that. I think Jesus meant us to obey the law, but also to live in the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. You cannot be perfect but you certainly can strive toward wholeness of spirit, body and mind and God’s will in your life.

 

[Enoch]

Whenever you point your finger at someone there is ALWAYS three pointing back at you. Didn’t Jesus say something about the log in our eye? I could be mistaken but I sense some righteous indignation in your response. Could it be false pride? Saints are great models for us to strive toward. Yet “many are called but few are chosen”. Saints were not normal everyday people. I believe Jesus calls us to be the best we can for Him, but most great saints were chosen, and not everyone is chosen to lead that kind of lifestyle.
That’s not to say that God doesn’t have a plan for us. I know that He does. Some of us get lost in trying too hard to be something that we are not called to be. We ARE called to conversion from sin to holiness. I believe in prayer, frequent confession and communion, praying for the knowledge and willingness of God’s plan for me, and seeking intercession from the Blessed Mother and Her Saints. Yet I know what my calling is and that is what I am doing.
You couldn’t read a man’s heart if it were on his sleeve or in print right in front of you, and neither do you have the right to. Sins are not “its” either. They are past choices and wrong ones at that. I think Jesus meant us to obey the law, but also to live in the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. You cannot be perfect but you certainly can strive toward wholeness of spirit, body and mind and God’s will in your life.

Did you read post # 68

You couldn’t be more wrong here on several levels. You tell me I’m being personally judgmental, then turn around and accuse me of false pride. Whose being judgmental now! You seem quick to sum me up. I guess I didn’t realize preaching the Gospel and to lovingly admonish the sinner as to lead them to heaven was being judgmental

Do you even know what a saint is? It’s not just for nuns and priests. It’s every soul in heaven. We are ALL called to be saints. We are ALL called to the same level of holiness no matter what our state in life is, or what vocation we have, or what crosses we bear. Saints are indeed very ordinary people who never gave up the fight for holiness.

God does not expect anyone to be perfect here on earth. However, He does expect us to be continually working towards it. Just like when a baby bird is truing to hatch from an egg. It is the struggle to get out that makes it strong enough to fly. If it just automatically opened it would die.

So if someone tells me to embrace homosexuals and I respond, “I will embrace them as children of God, but warn them that that Jesus and the Church teaches homosexual activity is a grave sin”, am I being personally judgmental? Am I pointing a finger? No! I’m trying to show them the way to heaven. Christ is the judge here.

It isn’t the fact that someone may be inclined to be attracted to the same sex that’s the sin, it’s when someone indulges in that inclination and makes no attempt to do as Christ taught that is the sin.

 

[Schultzz]

“I guess I didn’t realize preaching the Gospel and…”

You are not qualified to preach the Gospel. Are you an ordained minister? A Priest?
You may profess the Gospel and explain the Gospel but not preach anything unless you are qualified.
I see you are a person of faith and determination but you seem to misunderstand my posts, so I leave you in peace to go your way.

 

[Enoch]

“I guess I didn’t realize preaching the Gospel and…”

You are not qualified to preach the Gospel. Are you an ordained minister? A Priest?
You may profess the Gospel and explain the Gospel but not preach anything unless you are qualified.
I see you are a person of faith and determination but you seem to misunderstand my posts, so I leave you in peace to go your way.

Oh. I guess I didn’t realize only the ordained knew the difference between right and wrong and the teaching of Jesus stop with the homily. From now on when someone asks me anything about he teachings of Christ I’ll just tell them they need to speak to a priest or deacon because I’m not smart enough or qualified to know those kinds of things. Thanks for straitening me out

 

[Schultzz]

Oh. I guess I didn’t realize only the ordained knew the difference between right and wrong and the teaching of Jesus stop with the homily. From now on when someone asks me anything about he teachings of Christ I’ll just tell them they need to speak to a priest or deacon because I’m not smart enough or qualified to know those kinds of things. Thanks for straitening me out

Shouldn’t your avatar say “Ora et Labora”?, instead of “ora and labora”?

You misunderstood what I said. I am not attacking you or trying to insult you. I am quite confident that you are smart enough to defend your beliefs and that you know the difference between right and wrong. Its just that you confuse the meaning of “preaching” with apologetics. This is most likely the last time I will respond to your posts as I can see that you are on “another page”.

 

[Eschato]

Is it though? What does that even mean? “Cafeteria” Catholics most likely make up the majority of parishoners. Do you send them away if they don’t change their views to conform to the Church? Do you tell this man in your Church that he isn’t welcome there because of his viewpoints?

Yes

 

[elvisman]

Actually, I *can *pick and choose which messages I find appropriate. I have the mental capacity and - I would say - even a moral obligation to do so.

In my opinion, I think that man’s T-shirt ought to be the official doctrine of the church. I wish the church was more open to people of all minorities.

Yes, as an atheist, you can pick and choose anything you want. That’s why the OP didn’t apply to you.
We’re talking about somebody who is practicing their faith as a Catholic and wears inappropriate – yes, inappropriate - attire to mass.

Whether or not YOU believe that homosexuality is okay – and judging by your comments on the matter in several other posts, I’d say that’s a big YES – homosexual behavior is not permitted by Christians. It is an abomination in the eyes of God. This is emphatically stated in Scripture – over and over again.

**Your opinion that the statement on the shirt should be the ****“official doctrine of the Church” **is nothing but bitterness. Apparently, you have an ax to grind with the Church and you go from thread to thread expressing it.
You act as if this is a matter of tolerance - which is probably the most overly and incorrectly applied word in the English language. Jesus had tolerance for sinners - in the hope that they would change their ways. He DIDN’T accept their sins in the name of tolerance. He usually told them to “Go and sin no more”.

Remember what G.K. Chesterton said about it:
"Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions."

 

[KCT]

Do you think this is an appropriate shirt for Mass?
Should I have said something politely to him?

No, it’s not appropriate and no you shouldn’t say anything. You have no control over what other people choose to wear.

 

[Enoch]

Shouldn’t your avatar say “Ora et Labora”?, instead of “ora and labora”?

You misunderstood what I said. I am not attacking you or trying to insult you. I am quite confident that you are smart enough to defend your beliefs and that you know the difference between right and wrong. Its just that you confuse the meaning of “preaching” with apologetics. This is most likely the last time I will respond to your posts as I can see that you are on “another page”.

I borrowed that avatar off the internet. I’ll be sure to file a complaint for the reckless mixing of an ampersand and Latin.

I can’t see what post you are on because you have that information hidden.

Didn’t St. Francis of Assisi say something about “preaching” the Gospel Daily… ?

But I digress. Perhaps he was only talking to priests and deacons

So if my validly ordained priest tells me in his homily that we are to embrace homosexuals but not embrace homosexual activity, I will assume he is “preaching”. If I then turn around and dare to repeat his words, am I then overstepping my bounds? Show me where the Church teaches that.