inclusive language

[Trident59]

Randal,

Well thats what happens when one attends a beautiful Mass as presented and celebrated at Holy Rosary in PDX.

I, too, have been spoiled by all things traditional. Communion Rails, Latin responses, pipe organ and sacred polyphony, and the occasional old rite Mass

Did you attend any of the Byrd Festival?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Randal,

Well thats what happens when one attends a beautiful Mass as presented and celebrated at Holy Rosary in PDX.

I, too, have been spoiled by all things traditional. Communion Rails, Latin responses, pipe organ and sacred polyphony, and the occasional old rite Mass

Did you attend any of the Byrd Festival?

Pax tecum!

Yes! I went to a few events for the William Byrd Festival. I went to the Tridentine High Mass on the Feast of the Assumption at St. Patrick’s with Bishop Meeking, and then to the Mass the following Sunday at Holy Rosary with Bishop Meeking. I also went to the organ recital and coral evensong at Trinity Episcopal Cathedral. Did you make it to any of those?

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

On topic however, I am troubled that we as Americans and the vast majority of Western society have forgotten that the role of women and the role of men are different in part because we no longer dress differently or rather distinctly. Many fashions are uni-sex in design with minor tailoring. I think that the lack of firm signs of these distinction of proper gender roles lends to these theological errors that are rooted in Gnosticism. The work to androgynize man has also worked to do the same violence to God.

Amen! Regarding mantillas, why is it that women have the option of wearing them in church, but men still do not have the option of wearing a hat to Mass. This is unfair! I look good in a fedora. This topic also hits on modesty, which concerns both women and men. I’m tired of being distracted by the attractive legs of a female EEM wearing a miniskirt on the altar, or of being forced to look away when an 80-year old man in shorts sits next to me.

I know many priests who have been “feminized”, either by the daily barrage from extremists in their parishes or the fact that they entered seminary with effeminate or homosexual leanings, and they really need our prayer. We call them “father” because they are entrusted with the role of spiritual fatherhood, so we need to pray for these priests that our Heavenly Father will show them how to be true priests of His Son.

I once heard a priest praying to Our Father and Mother at Mass, and I was shocked. Yes, God is neither male or female in gender, and yes, He does possess all attributes of fatherhood and motherhood since He created male and female in His image, but his RELATIONSHIP to mankind is as a Father. The Church’s relationship in our lives is as mother, as is that of Our Lady. This in no way implies inferiority of motherhood, but that they are two different, complimentary, and equally-important roles that were created by God. Jesus always called God Father. If He had called God “mother,” then I suppose we would also, but He instead clarified the Father’s relationship to mankind by giving His earthly mother Mary to be our mother.

By the way, if I may indulge in stereotypes, I am a strongly-heterosexual, occasionally cigar-smoking, target-shooting, weight-lifting seminarian who loves the Holy Father, the Bishop, Holy Mother Church, and Our Lady. I love people and want everyone in my future parish to get to heaven. This requires prayer, compassion, and plainly speaking the truth. I also find the cassock to be a noble and manly garment.

 

[CatholicNick]

I also find the cassock to be a noble and manly garment.

As do I

 

[Trident59]

Yes, we brought a group of 6 down from the Chehalis area for Bishop Meeking’s Tridentine Mass. Just got too swamped to attend any more than that though. The Cantores was beautiful as usual.

 

[Pius_X]

Oh, ok. Thanks, timolive.

 

[mosher]

Sigh. Not a feminist in any way but haven’t you noticed that there wasn’t too much difference between men and women’s dress in Christ’s time. Yes, there were differences and there still are today. It is very important, however, that men not try to be women and women not try to be men. We should embrace the differences that God gave us. I don’t agree with the idea that if I throw on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt to go hiking with my family that I am rejecting my femininity. I am embracing my motherhood and the fact that sometimes that leads me to be casual, dirty and tired!

My husband and I have talked about the pants vs. skirts issue at length and he thinks it just silly. He doesn’t think it so much what I wear as the attitude I have towards him and our children. I, for my part, think part of that attitude is to try and look pretty for him no matter what I’m wearing. It’s not that he insists on this, it’s something I do for him.

The reality of the situation is that we have to do things the way we think God wants us to do them after prayerful consideration. If I felt God wanted me in skirts 24/7 and a mantilla at Mass I’d wear one. I certainly don’t have a thing to say about the people who do or the people who don’t. It’s there choice and I have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have also prayerfully considered their situation. As always, some will be right and some will be wrong in their decisions but is it our place to decide this?

I know that you are no feminist as I am familiar with your posts. However, I think that if you don’t see the cultural problem then that is problematic. What we need to do is work to establish proper habits of dress and deportment to help establish these norms and mores once again. The Church has always done this in such methods and the mantilla and at one time requiring women to wear skirts and men to dress appropriate aswell. Such things if left up to personal conscience results in chaos.

 

[bear06]

I know that you are no feminist as I am familiar with your posts. However, I think that if you don’t see the cultural problem then that is problematic. What we need to do is work to establish proper habits of dress and deportment to help establish these norms and mores once again. The Church has always done this in such methods and the mantilla and at one time requiring women to wear skirts and men to dress appropriate aswell. Such things if left up to personal conscience results in chaos.

Sorry, Mosher. I disagree with you in this area. I don’t think that it’s the apparel but the attitude. I do think that our culture has serious problems. That said, I don’t think pants/slacks or t-shirts or any other “gender neutral” items of clothing are the problem.

 

[mdgspencer]

Several years ago one or two priests in a Texas diocese were refusing to give communion to those who kneeled when they came to receive communion. The Vatican heard about this and sent a sharp letter to the bishop insisting that this be stopped, and saying that the faithful have a fundamental right to communion that this practice violates. In the letter the bishop was told it was his responsibilty to stop this right away.
This is a serious violation of the rights of the faithful, and if I was you, I would write a letter to the bishop. Whether you would send a letter to the Vatican office responsible for the liturgy if this continued after writing the bishop would be up to you to decide.

 

[LighthouseRon]

I found this on the web from my archdiocese. It is an interpretation of the 200 GIRM. The section I’ve copied pertains to reception of communion:

*Manner of Receiving Communion
#160:2: The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and, still less, hand them to one another. The norm for the reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the USA is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head as a gesture of reverence and received the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of the communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood. *

While it does indeed state communion should not be denied, it also states proper form is to receive communion standing. Is it possible we, the faithful, may not understand the reasons for receiving Our Lord while standing? If we don’t follow our own diocese, what then?

 

[LighthouseRon]

I found this on the web from my archdiocese. It is an interpretation of the 200 GIRM. The section I’ve copied pertains to reception of communion:

2000 GIRM, sorry

 

[mosher]

Sorry, Mosher. I disagree with you in this area. I don’t think that it’s the apparel but the attitude. I do think that our culture has serious problems. That said, I don’t think pants/slacks or t-shirts or any other “gender neutral” items of clothing are the problem.

As Dr. Laura is oft to say, “action precedes attitude.” Also every study agrees with me. For instance, in sales a person who is making phone calls to clients or prospective clients is told that he will have a higher success rate if he dresses in coat and tie even though he may be at home. The numbers support this advice. Why? Well the reason is that the way in which we dress effects the way we behave in subtle or not so subtle ways. Not just the self is effected by the manner of dress but also those observing a person dressed well (properly) act differently around that person in a reflection to their manner of dress. There is an important reason why Aristotle included as one of the Categories vesture (manner of dress) and only applied it to humans.

 

[bear06]

Post 2000 GIRM:
adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

 

[bear06]

As Dr. Laura is oft to say, “action precedes attitude.” Also every study agrees with me. For instance, in sales a person who is making phone calls to clients or prospective clients is told that he will have a higher success rate if he dresses in coat and tie even though he may be at home. The numbers support this advice. Why? Well the reason is that the way in which we dress effects the way we behave in subtle or not so subtle ways. Not just the self is effected by the manner of dress but also those observing a person dressed well (properly) act differently around that person in a reflection to their manner of dress. There is an important reason why Aristotle included as one of the Categories vesture (manner of dress) and only applied it to humans.

Now you’re blurring the argument. It’s one thing to dress slovenly and it’s another thing to wear nice slacks (neutral gender I think is your definition) with a nice blouse.

Also, different dress goes for different events. For example, while I do wear a skirt or dress for Mass, I don’t wear one while camping, scrubbing the floors, excercising, etc.

While I don’t wear slacks to Mass (I simply don’t have a pair) I certainly wouldn’t think that a women who was wearing them and a nice blouse was trying to be manly in anyway. Nor would I think that those slacks would be her downfall. Now, if she was trying to act like a man, that would be a different story.

So, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go do my hair and makeup, throw on my pants, take my kids to their chant/polyphonic choir and then come home to scrub down the house! Don’t think you can be more womanly than that!

 

[LighthouseRon]

I don’t deny that Holy Communion shouldn’t be refused to a kneeling recipient. I do question however, in such a case where there is no communion rail whether kneeling to receive when it creates logistical issues is proper. I don’t think anyone will deny that kneeling to receive is very reverent. The point is we are instructed in our diocese to receive standing with a reverent bow. That’s what we should do. If everybody does what they think is the most proper based on what they think, everyone would be doing their own thing. We need to trust our archdiocese in such matters.

 

[mosher]

Now you’re blurring the argument. It’s one thing to dress slovenly and it’s another thing to wear nice slacks (neutral gender I think is your definition) with a nice blouse.

Also, different dress goes for different events. For example, while I do wear a skirt or dress for Mass, I don’t wear one while camping, scrubbing the floors, excercising, etc.

While I don’t wear slacks to Mass (I simply don’t have a pair) I certainly wouldn’t think that a women who was wearing them and a nice blouse was trying to be manly in anyway. Nor would I think that those slacks would be her downfall. Now, if she was trying to act like a man, that would be a different story.

So, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go do my hair and makeup, throw on my pants, take my kids to their chant/polyphonic choir and then come home to scrub down the house! Don’t think you can be more womanly than that!

Of course that different types of dress are appropriate for different occasions. And further, i am not at all speaking about the difference between dressing nice or slovenly. That is not my point. Rather, my point is that a persons disposition is rightly changed by their manner of dress. This is true and every study on the topic confirms this fact. Thus, it is more proper to dress appropriate to a person’s gender in reflection of their proper complimentary role. This is what I have been talking about the whole time and not some radical position that is held by some groups. Rather, I am merely advocating a return to something that was lost during the time of the so called “sexual revolution” and the “feminist movement” of recent times.

I also have been considering an earlier statement about how the manner of dress in the time of Christ was relatively the same for men and women. Nothing can be more void of understanding than such statements. There is a reason why death was proscribed under the Mosaic Law for men who would dress in he manner of a women and a woman that would dress like men. Our eyes are not trained to see the differences in dress from a culture a few thousand years ago but they could and they did even from the time of Moses. Each culture knows its own styles. So, since we know what is distinctly male and what is distinctly female in our own culture we need to be careful to not blur the line and that line needs to be formed or re-formed based on the natural compliment of man to woman. This ties into the discussion at hand because it relates directly back to the manner of dress at mass. It also relates back to this blurring the line between the masculine and the feminine in man and in God. One is the reflection of the other and so it is not just in academic catechises that this is done but also in the small things that we doe such as the manner of dress (or other such things).

 

[bear06]

On topic however, I am troubled that we as Americans and the vast majority of Western society have forgotten that the role of women and the role of men are different in part because we no longer dress differently or rather distinctly. Many fashions are uni-sex in design with minor tailoring. I think that the lack of firm signs of these distinction of proper gender roles lends to these theological errors that are rooted in Gnosticism. The work to androgynize man has also worked to do the same violence to God.

This is what you started off with. Again, if I want to wear jeans and a t-shirt to get down and dirty in my home, I am not denying my sexuality, I am embracing it.

Of course that different types of dress are appropriate for different occasions. And further, i am not at all speaking about the difference between dressing nice or slovenly. That is not my point. Rather, my point is that a persons disposition is rightly changed by their manner of dress.

I’d agree with you somewhat on this point if we were talking about wearing jeans to Mass vs. slacks. Other than that, I do not agree.

This is true and every study on the topic confirms this fact.

 

[Maureen_Fiore]

I don’t deny that Holy Communion shouldn’t be refused to a kneeling recipient. I do question however, in such a case where there is no communion rail whether kneeling to receive when it creates logistical issues is proper. I don’t think anyone will deny that kneeling to receive is very reverent. The point is we are instructed in our diocese to receive standing with a reverent bow. That’s what we should do. If everybody does what they think is the most proper based on what they think, everyone would be doing their own thing. We need to trust our archdiocese in such matters.

I totally agree with you, Lighthouse. I believe that no one should be denied communion. I take communion standing because that was how I was taught. I approach the altar and give a reverent bow and accept Jesus on the tongue. Once again, I was taught this way. My children receive in the hand and that is ok too. At our church we use to have altar railings until we received a new pastor. He is a very nice person but I was shocked to see these railing go even though I did not kneel at them.

 

[mosher]

This is what you started off with. Again, if I want to wear jeans and a t-shirt to get down and dirty in my home, I am not denying my sexuality, I am embracing it.

I’m not contradicting that.

I’d agree with you somewhat on this point if we were talking about wearing jeans to Mass vs. slacks. Other than that, I do not agree.

I am not just talking about at mass here. I am saying that we approach a person in a different way based on dress and that persons self-image is changed. This is just obvious. As a man who has worn both a military uniform and clerics I can attest to both aspects.

Again, this is blurring the argument because I doubt you’ll find studies that show that when women are wearing nice slacks are trying to act manly or take on manly characteristics because they are wearing slacks.

Of course I can … I only have to cite one name Hilary Clinton. As Rush Limbaugh likes to say “she puts her pants on one leg at a time just like every other guy.”

So, are you saying that women should only wear skirts and blouses because pants and t-shirts are too close to a man’s dress? Just want a little clarification.

No. I really don’t care how this manifests itself but just that it does.

You’ve actually just proven my point so I guess my statement wasn’t too void of understanding. Our culture knows the minor tailoring, accessorizing, etc. that differentiates men and women. Again, I’m not talking about the extremes of women who really are trying to look like men. I believe the term is “butch”. You can tell when a woman is trying to deny her complimentary nature and the clothing is a small part of the issue.

You are correct but I think you missed my point. Perhaps I am being too subtle. The manner of dress is one piece of a larger puzzle that can help fix the behavior problems of society just as uniforms in a school help fix the behavior problems in school. It does not address the whole issue but it is a part of the pie.

 

[bear06]

I’m not contradicting that.

I am not just talking about at mass here. I am saying that we approach a person in a different way based on dress and that persons self-image is changed. This is just obvious. As a man who has worn both a military uniform and clerics I can attest to both aspects.

Of course I can … I only have to cite one name Hilary Clinton. As Rush Limbaugh likes to say “she puts her pants on one leg at a time just like every other guy.”

No. I really don’t care how this manifests itself but just that it does.

You are correct but I think you missed my point. Perhaps I am being too subtle. The manner of dress is one piece of a larger puzzle that can help fix the behavior problems of society just as uniforms in a school help fix the behavior problems in school. It does not address the whole issue but it is a part of the pie.

How about this? What would your solution be? Detail would be good.