Increase of Atheists around the world, increase of crime any coincidence?

[upant]

This whole attempt to declare atheism as “immoral” is just an attack to declare Christianity as superior.

nobody is declaring atheism immoral. atheism itself as defined by the great atheists of the modern-day makes morals indefinable. how can you have morals when you don’t have good and evil. all atheists can live by their own individual code.

Murders, genocides are NOT accepted.

murder is accepted, 60,000,000 babies have been murdered. there is an ongoing debate about genocide and abortion’s close relationship. they are unfortunately accepted.

 

[Freddy]

Spaten:

This whole attempt to declare atheism as “immoral” is just an attack to declare Christianity as superior.

How can you have morals when you don’t have good and evil.

Didn’t we have this dance? Who on earth says that there is no good and evil in our lives? Where are these people?

 

[ATraveller]

No problem. Throw that data into a spreadsheet and post the plot.

Sure. Do you have access to the databases? I don’t. But many social scientists do and have done analyses.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Even easier! Just link to someone else’s plot.

 

[ATraveller]

I cited a book for the thread’s topic (crime). You’ll have to find your own copy.
The book also covered abortion. Same trend.
Christians Are Hate-Filled Hypocrites…And Other Lies You’ve Been Told by Bradley Wright. It’s a US-centred book though.

 

[BornInMarch]

I don’t think this theory holds water. To start with, there are a lot of countries with high levels of religiosity where crime is still very high. Brazil is absolutely a Catholic country but it still has high crime rates.

The main cause of crime tends to be poverty. When people are desperate they’re more likely to resort to crime to make ends meet, as well as more susceptible to recruitment by criminal organizations if they feel membership is the only way to get a support network.

This isn’t to say that rich people don’t commit crimes - they certainly do - it’s just that most people are born with a moral compass and it takes external pressures to erode that. That’s why when you see rich people commit monetary crimes, it’s usually because they were envious of their peers.

 

[upant]

Didn’t we have this dance? Who on earth says that there is no good and evil in our lives? Where are these people?

you haven’t proved it by your system of belief. what makes something good or bad. societal norm is not the answer. that changes. you need to define good and bad. the dance is going on but you are sitting it out. you say something is good, someone else says it is bad. who is the ultimate judge? majority rule isn’t the final arbitrator. there is no answer in an atheistic system. each person is free to decide for them self what they consider is good and what they consider is bad. we see it today in that many now consider murder good or at least acceptable (abortion).

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Didn’t we have this dance? Who on earth says that there is no good and evil in our lives? Where are these people?

you haven’t proved it by your system of belief. what makes something good or bad. societal norm is not the answer. that changes. you need to define good and bad. the dance is going on but you are sitting it out. you say something is good, someone else says it is bad. who is the ultimate judge? majority rule isn’t the final arbitrator. there is no answer in an atheistic system. each person is free to decide for them self what they consider is good and what they consider is bad. we see it today in that many now consider murder good or at least acceptable (abortion).

I know that you’d like to refer to scripture or the catechism for some guidance as soon as I bring up any suggestion as to what is good or bad. But can you do it without that? Is it possible for you to decide, without any guidance from your church what is good and what is bad?

If not, then how do you manage when there is no guidance? Is factory farming immoral for example?

My answers will generally refer to what is good for society as a whole. Which might mean that what I describe as good will have detrimental effects to me personally. It’s practically impossible to give an all-encompassing rule which would dictate whatnis right and what is wrong because in every case it is relative to the situation.

And you are also in the position of deciding if Catholic morality is correct or not. Generally I think it is and so do the vast majority of society: Don’t steal for example. Nobody thinks it’s acceptable, including those who do it. They just think they’re exempt. And there are good reasons for rules such as that. And you wouod be able to put forward an argument for those reasons.

But there are moral positions upon which we disagree. In which case, the best (or in some cases the most persuasive) argument wins.

 

[upant]

But there are moral positions upon which we disagree. In which case, the best (or in some cases the most persuasive) argument wins.

you miss the point. an atheistic system doesn’t believe in morals because there is no foundation for good or evil. it is better for individuals to create a system of good and evil just to live in harmony but it is only a man-made system subject to change by those in charge.

as Dawkins says

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

 

[Frankie65]

It’s not as though atheists don’t have their sense of morality informed by their christian and post-christian surroundings. How their moral sensibilities will be altered as the number of christians declines and the number of people with no moral anchor ascends has yet to be seen. Lucky us, we’ll get to watch. I’m betting it’ll be quite horrible. It certainly hasn’t started out well.

Couldn’t agree more

 

[Frankie65]

No. It’s that every answer I put to you to answer your point you say is a non answer, by one means or another.
Same technique used by the other opponents here.
Nothing I say will change your mind.
So there’s no point me continuing any discussion with you

 

[ewohdrol]

But your data is incorrect! You compare two different countries with a very bold assertion on stats and when someone pulls you up on it you claim your argument was something else.

That is not generally how a debate works.

I am very opened minded and love a good discussion. But the data/facts countered at the very least need to be consistent or consensus is impossible.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But there are moral positions upon which we disagree. In which case, the best (or in some cases the most persuasive) argument wins.

you miss the point. an atheistic system doesn’t believe in morals because there is no foundation for good or evil. it is better for individuals to create a system of good and evil just to live in harmony but it is only a man-made system subject to change by those in charge.

as Dawkins says

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

So do you think that Dawkins is talking about the universe’s indifference to you and me or is he talking about personal existence?

From someone who has read a great deal of what Dawkins has written, I think that you haven’t any idea of his philosophical viewpoint and have simply cut and pasted something you have found which you think bears out your personal view on what atheists believe.

I don’t want to sound derogatory…but there is a greater depth in the understanding of morality - where it came from, the purpose it serves, why we feel bound to it, why there are differences of opinion as to what it actually constitutes…then you seem to understand.

Your position appears to be: This is what is written and no discussions shall be entered into.

 

[Spaten]

nobody is declaring atheism immoral.

Many people do.

how can you have morals when you don’t have good and evil.

We are both biological and social beings. Good is what makes our life better. That is beyond dispute.

murder is accepted, 60,000,000 babies have been murdered.

If you don’t understand the definition of murder, no conversation can be useful.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It wasn’t merely an assertion.

The positive correlation between crime rate and atheism was just an assertion.

The question isn’t decided by long term trends, because the current short term rise in affiliation with atheism may be correlated to a short term rise in violent crime.

A correlation over such a short cherry-picked time frame has no meaning outside of that short cherry-picked time frame.

That recent rise may correlate to the recent rise in crime, but it is too early to tell. Just saying it might be revealing.

Just saying it might reveal nothing. So why are we spending digital ink writing about what might be?

 

[DarkLight]

I was raised atheist and I managed to avoid jail.

Shocking I know.

I am now a Christian and my morals and values are still the same with one difference. God is now in the picture. My lifestyle didn’t change all that much.

Frankly when I became an atheist in college I daresay my morals improved. I got the chance to just help people because they needed help, without worrying about if they were going to use it the “right” way.

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes
Doing good just for the sake of doing good.

No threat of hell or promise of heaven.

 

[DarkLight]

That and not worrying about whether I was helping a “sinner”. Which mostly proves you get terrible morality out of religion too.

 

[upant]

So do you think that Dawkins is talking about the universe’s indifference to you and me or is he talking about personal existence?

in a universe, without good or evil, there is no personal good or evil. everyone gets to define their own individual code of conduct

Your position appears to be: This is what is written and no discussions shall be entered into.

you keep trying to discuss something that isn’t atheism and call it atheism. people want to give attributes to atheism to make it more appealing than it really is.

I don’t want to sound derogatory…but there is a greater depth in the understanding of morality - where it came from, the purpose it serves, why we feel bound to it, why there are differences of opinion as to what it actually constitutes…then you seem to understand.

as Robertson says,

That then is the atheist basis of morality – no justice, no rhyme nor reason, no purpose, no evil, no good, just blind pitiless indifference. It is little wonder that atheist philosophers have been desperately hunting round to try and establish some basis for a godless morality. Despite the best efforts of E. O. Wilson and Peter Singer, this basis is severely lacking, being little more than a utilitarian ‘greatest good for the greatest number’ without ever defining what ‘good’ is.

your morals allow sex outside of marriage, I say it is wrong, who is the final arbitrator? a group of our peers in a catholic society sides with me, a group in a non-religious society sides with you. society isn’t the answer. morals can’t be based on society. God Has directed me, your feelings direct you, another atheist may make a different decision. Atheists can have an individual code of conduct, you call morals, but they choose what to base it on and can change it when they want.

 

[upant]

If you don’t understand the definition of murder, no conversation can be useful.

i can help you with that

"murder
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

abortion is the killing of the human being at its earliest stage of life

it is definitely premeditated so i don’t see where your issue is.

unless you have an issue with the time-frame in the life of a human being