Indiana diocese ordered to pay $1.95M in IVF-dismissal case [CWN]

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The whole school is a ministry of the parish. This particular parish subsidized the school with more tha $1 million in the last fiscal year.

When my brother served on the diocesan school board in Illinois, I provided him with a simple suggestion for the mission statement: “Catholic schools exist to assist parents in their obilgation to pass on the faith.” Reading, writing, and arithmetic are also nice, but can be done in other ways. Without the mission to pass on the faith, there is no reason to call the school Catholic. When school staff openly defy important elements of the faith, they subvert that mission. The judge was wrong to overrule the diocese in deciding who its ministers are and what their responsibilities are.
Who pays for what doesn’t have any bearing on the issue. The judge correctly pointed out that the argument made by the Diocese on ministerial status was the same argument rejected by the Supreme Court in Hosanna-Tabor. The teacher in this case had none of the duties, qualifications, or identical contractual obligations of those employees the Diocese defined as ministers prior to this case.
 
…“Repentance” to a jury of non-Catholics has all the looks of “good old boys” treatment …
That’s right. I’m sure some priests who abused children were repentant too, and maybe that influenced their superiors to allow them to remain in contact with children, perhaps after relocation to another parish. Also a woeful decision.
 
I can’t dispute your judgment that the three male teachers should have been fired. It certainly would have helped the diocese’s court case. I don’t have all the facts in the incident, but I doubt that all three men groped the stripper. They were there together and all three were kicked out. It is highly likely that only one of them got touchy. These clubs would not exist if they permanently excluded all the customers who got out of hand once. No charges were filed.
That is not exactly the issue. They should have been kicked out for walking into the strip club. Period. Groping the stripper is simply icing on the cake; it is the cake which is the subject. Simply going to the strip club is such a clear violation of upholding the teachings of the Church that the issue does not need further clarification of “groping” to be a clear violation of the contract.

I don’t know what grade level these men taught at; and it really doesn’t matter. Something like that has the very high potential of getting out and to the students.
The employee handbook for the diocese begins with a statement that the first aim of discipline is to correct a problem. Mrs Herx would not have been fired if her defense was that she did not know IVF was wrong and would stop. Instead she chose to publicly defy Church teaching. It was her decision to turn this into a scandal that could not be tolerated in a Catholic school. She does not deserve a financial windfall for that.
At this point without seeing the actual language of the contract and any attending handbooks from HR, we are speculating.

It is not the least unusual that discipline is to be corrective; however, it is also normal that there are offenses which lead directly to termination, and are not subject to corrective action (and continuation of the contract).

If the clause(s) in the contract were simply to provide corrective (name removed by moderator)ut so that the teachers could live more moral lives, then a) the diocese needs to completely rethink where they are going and why (children need to see teachers as role models), and b) then the diocese was on an even more difficult path to walk and defend.

I kind of doubt that the clause was there primarily for corrective (name removed by moderator)ut. It is far more logical that the clause was there to tell teachers what was expected of them - that anything in their lives which had a likelihood of being public knowledge and which was contrary to Catholic teaching was grounds for dismissal.

As to the size of the judgment, I have already stated that in general I see judgments as too big; however, it was in large part the rash of large judgments in abuse cases, driving dioceses to bankruptcy, that got the message home that the bishops had to make an extremely radical change in the choices that had been made over the years.

If anybody out there has their synapses firing in order, they are going to pay attention to this case, and clean up their act in terms of HR. Sad that it has to come to this, but it seems humans are not capable of making changes until their feet are held to the proverbial fire. Sloppy HR procedures are going to result in judgments. As my high school principle used to say over the intercom: “A word to the wise should be sufficient”.
 
The only atrocity of justice is that employers have any say over the private lives of their employees.
Very succinctly and well stated. 👍
So, just so I understand your positions…

In Shirvell’s case (the aggressively anti-gay MI state attorney), you would have opposed his firing if his actions took place 100% on his own time, with his own computer? Assuming his harassing behavior stayed below the threshold of criminality?
 
So, it seems the concept of “employment at will” is dead.

I am wondering if the school had fired those three male teachers, would this case have had a different outcome? Will schools now have to itemize every possible moral infraction in their morality clauses?
 
I’m not sure what you’re going on about. The Church will cannot comply with anything which goes against Her teachings. Once She does She ceases to be the Church. The nonsensical issue I’m referring to is the teacher who sued the Church when she was in the wrong, after already having being warned. I already stated my so called “solution” as you put it wasn’t realistic, just a thought.
I would put pretty good money (and I am not a bettor) that this was not about complying with going against Church teachings. It was about not handling an HR matter properly. From the facts which have dribbled out, it looks like the people in positions of authority dropped the ball in several places.

That leaves the Church in the position of trying to say it can’t approve of an act (IVF) when it reality, the leaders who were charged with upholding the Church teachings (by firing someone who clearly and fragrantly violated them) failed to act, and then after failing to act, tried to shut the barn door after the figurative horse was in the next town. Day late, dollar short, failed to have any consistency whatsoever, in administrating stated policy.
Are you kidding me? Have you seen some of the rulings of late to come out of US courts? I agree competent attorneys are a must but in an age where some priests and, Lord forgive me, some bishops and even cardinals aren’t the most competent it’s no wonder the Church can’t find decent attorneys to defend Her position.
I suspect that the diocese had competent attorneys. What I suspect also is that they had incompetent administrative personnel, who appear to have massively failed to handle the case properly right from the get go.
 
Obviously it was. Plain and simple the Catholic Church isn’t in the business of employing those who don’t live by Her teachings. This should be blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain. I don’t give a flying fig about the contract. Where do you think the Church gets the money She pays her employees from? I for one am not willing to have my donations or tuitions paid out to someone such as this. How would we all feel if a Jewish school were sued for firing a teacher found out to have anti-semitic sympathies?
You misunderstand the term “proper” as it refers to dismissal.

HR law requires a clearly set out process when one intends to fire someone for casue. If you don’t have a proper procedure, you will lose.

If you have a proper procedure, and do not use it, you will lose.

If you have a proper procedure, and use it, but do so incorrectly, you will lose.

What appears wrong here is that the diocese had incompetent administrators. So your tuition fees would have been paying the salary of incompetent administrators who caused a major lawsuit.
 
So, it seems the concept of “employment at will” is dead.

I am wondering if the school had fired those three male teachers, would this case have had a different outcome? Will schools now have to itemize every possible moral infraction in their morality clauses?
Employment at will may not be dead, but it certainly is circumscribed and limited in many cases. Once you put a contract on the table, you need to understand, as the employer, what you may or may not do, and what you must or must not do in firing situations. Law flows a bit like the ocean; at times the tides are higher, and other times, lower. So also, issues such as employment have times where there is more favor to the employer, and other times where there is more favor to the employee.

My guess (if I recall what was reported, the jury took a long time coming to a decision), the failure to fire the three male teaches may well have factored in.

Whether or not the diocese should be more proactive in telling employees what types of behavior and choices may result in firing is something that their attorneys should counsel them in, and again, they need to be cautious. Although we hear in the Old Testament that there is nothing new under the sun, the other side of that is that people seem to be creative in managing to sin. One would not want to tell employees a list, without making it clear that the list was simply to prevent confusion, and if they had any questions at all, they should ask before acting.

Fornication, adultery, and pornography are certainly issues which have a far wider and clearer teaching (that is, most people “get it”) than many issues in bioethics.
 
Even if she were directly fired instead of simply not having her contract renewed, and even if whatever morality clause was present in her contract was somehow overly ambiguous, how on earth does a jury award her nearly two million dollars!? :eek: I could see at most a couple years’ salary and legal bills. That would be closer to 100K, not 2 million. With that kind of money, she wouldn’t have to work again for the rest of her life.
 
Even if she were directly fired instead of simply not having her contract renewed, and even if whatever morality clause was present in her contract was somehow overly ambiguous, how on earth does a jury award her nearly two million dollars!? :eek: I could see at most a couple years’ salary and legal bills. That would be closer to 100K, not 2 million. With that kind of money, she wouldn’t have to work again for the rest of her life.
I guess I misunderstood. So they did not fire her–they just did not renew her contract. I thought the whole purpose of a contract for a stated time period was that at the end of the contract term it could either be renewed or not, for any reason or no reason.
 
I guess I misunderstood. So they did not fire her–they just did not renew her contract. I thought the whole purpose of a contract for a stated time period was that at the end of the contract term it could either be renewed or not, for any reason or no reason.
That’s the way I understood the story. I could be wrong.
 
If the Church’s defence rested on an assertion that the teacher was a minister, they deserved to lose their argument, and their lawyers deserve the sack.

Surely the issue will need to come back to what discrimination is permissible in hiring and what restrictions are permissible in an employment contract or by way of company policy. That is the practical real world matter. If this argument was not addressed at trial, I assume US legal process won’t allow it at an appeal. So another test case will be required. It may well be a hard argument to win.
It could prove to be a landmark case and cause the church another round of expensive lawsuits. I am reminded of the woman in Ohio who was fired because her female partner was mentioned in her mother’s obituary…after many years of loyal service.
 
That’s the way I understood the story. I could be wrong.
You are correct. Her contract might still have been renewed, but she insisted that she would continue to seek the objectionable treatments when the problem was explained to her. There is no way the diocese could tolerate that she made her disagreement with church teaching public.

There is no question that her first two rounds of in-vitro were mishandled by the school principal, but once the pastor was informed, he did what he had to do, with full backing of Bishop Rhoades.

Her mother is still an active member of that parish, but Mrs Herx is doing a lot to undermine the Church, and she is doing it publicly.
 
You are correct. Her contract might still have been renewed, but she insisted that she would continue to seek the objectionable treatments when the problem was explained to her. There is no way the diocese could tolerate that she made her disagreement with church teaching public.

There is no question that her first two rounds of in-vitro were mishandled by the school principal, but once the pastor was informed, he did what he had to do, with full backing of Bishop Rhoades.

Her mother is still an active member of that parish, but Mrs Herx is doing a lot to undermine the Church, and she is doing it publicly.
Sounds like the school would have been better off to simply not renew the contract without giving a reason.

When they tried to condition renewal on discontinuing IVF, they gave her a cause of action. The whole thing is deplorable.
 
So, just so I understand your positions…

In Shirvell’s case (the aggressively anti-gay MI state attorney), you would have opposed his firing if his actions took place 100% on his own time, with his own computer? Assuming his harassing behavior stayed below the threshold of criminality?
I would not have opposed his firing because, as Assistant Attorney General for the State of Michigan, he was a public figure.
 
Sounds like the school would have been better off to simply not renew the contract without giving a reason.

When they tried to condition renewal on discontinuing IVF, they gave her a cause of action. The whole thing is deplorable.
That would be true for a for-profit business, but they are not. The school is an apostolate of the church and its mission is to bring both the students and the teachers to Christ. That is why the teacher was fired and why their actions should be protected under the First Amendment. Even if the jury’s decision is not overturned they have to be faithful to the mission.
 
That would be true for a for-profit business, but they are not. The school is an apostolate of the church and its mission is to bring both the students and the teachers to Christ. That is why the teacher was fired and why their actions should be protected under the First Amendment. Even if the jury’s decision is not overturned they have to be faithful to the mission.
The first Amendment is not a shield for stupidity. You cannot mishandle HR cases, and then stand up and say “Oh, our mishandling is protected under the First Amendment!”

What they should do for starters is sack the principal; given their predilection for dilly dallying about procedure, that looks like a non-starter, however.

This does not appear to be a First Amendment case. It appears to be an HR case, and one that was miserably mishandled on more than one occasion - and likely more than two.

In baseball, three strikes and you are out.
 
The first Amendment is not a shield for stupidity. You cannot mishandle HR cases, and then stand up and say “Oh, our mishandling is protected under the First Amendment!”

What they should do for starters is sack the principal; given their predilection for dilly dallying about procedure, that looks like a non-starter, however.

This does not appear to be a First Amendment case. It appears to be an HR case, and one that was miserably mishandled on more than one occasion - and likely more than two.

In baseball, three strikes and you are out.
The mishandling of this teacher’s case meant that she was not fired a year earlier than she was. How is that worth nearly $2 million in damages, or even the reduced verdict of more than a half million? Mrs Herx’s claim for emotional distress stems from being told her behavior was intrinsically evil. It is the same old story that when the Church proclaims the truth it is guilty of hate speech. The case has been widely reported as the teacher who was fired for wanting another baby.

This is absolutely a challenge to freedom of religion, and as expected the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend is appealing the verdict.
 
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