Indulgence for the Patriarch

[rad]

This may seem an odd question but would the Pope consider giving a plenary indulgence to Patriarch Alexey or are indulgences only for Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics?

 

[rad]

News has just come in that the Pope has asked for prayers for Patrijarch Alexey’s soul. I suppose this means that he does not intend to give him a plenary indulgence.

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI is calling for prayers for the soul of Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II.

Alexy died Friday at the age of 79.

Benedict said during his Sunday blessing from his studio window above St. Peter’s Square that were united with their “Orthodox brothers” in praying for Alexy’s soul.

 

[wynd]

Considering the Orthodox don’t believe in indulgences, it might cause more problems than it solves.

 

[mardukm]

If I understand the Latin doctrine correctly, only a living person can obtain a plenary indulgence.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[rad]

If I understand the Latin doctrine correctly, only a living person can obtain a plenary indulgence.

Yes, only a living person can obtain an indulgence but they may apply them to people in the afterlife, either specifically by name or they can let God choose the recipient.

Wynd, I don’t follow your concern. Is it not the case that Catholics believe the Patriarch is now in Purgatory (unless he died with no unpaid debts for sin which could be the case but is it likely?). Doesn’t it make sense then for the Pope to act in a charitable manner and get him out of Purgatory with a plenary indulgence?

As Cardinal Newman said:

“Help, Lord, the souls which Thou hast made, the souls to Thee so dear, In prison for the debt unpaid of sins committed here”

• Cardinal Newman

 

[wynd]

Wynd, I don’t follow your concern. Is it not the case that Catholics believe the Patriarch is now in Purgatory (unless he died with no unpaid debts for sin which could be the case but is it likely?). Doesn’t it make sense then for the Pope to act in a charitable manner and get him out of Purgatory with a plenary indulgence?

My point is that since Orthodox don’t believe in indulgences or purgatory, it could be seen as insensitive to members of the Orthodox churches, much like the proxy baptism done by Mormons on behalf of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI upsets some people. See this link: Will Pope Benedict become a Mormon after he dies?

 

[rad]

My point is that since Orthodox don’t believe in indulgences or purgatory, it could be seen as insensitive to members of the Orthodox churches,

Butr since the Patriatrch may have two million years of suffering for the unpaid debts of his sins, wouldn’t it be an act of charity for the Pope to deliver him. I am sure the Patriarch would not see release from his pain as insensitive.

 

[linuxgeek71]

You are free to obtain a plenary indulgence and give it to the Patriarch. Any indulgence you obtain can be used for those in Purgatory. The Holy Father has no need to give one himself, and who is to say that in private he did not?

 

[Eucharisted]

You are free to obtain a plenary indulgence and give it to the Patriarch. Any indulgence you obtain can be used for those in Purgatory. The Holy Father has no need to give one himself, and who is to say that in private he did not?

Bingo!

 

[rad]

You are free to obtain a plenary indulgence and give it to the Patriarch. Any indulgence you obtain can be used for those in Purgatory.

I have been told that only members of the Catholic faith can obtain indulgences.

 

[rad]

The Holy Father has no need to give one himself, and who is to say that in private he did not?

We know that he did not because in his public audience he asked for prayers for the Patriarch’s soul. This is not necessary if he gave him a plenary indulgence and the Patriarch has been released from Purgatory and is now in Heaven.

So back to the OP - is the Pope unable to give a plenary indulgence to release the Patriarch from his sufferings in Purgatory?

“Help, Lord, the souls which Thou hast made, the souls to Thee so dear, In prison for the debt unpaid of sins committed here”

• Cardinal Newman

 

[Nicholas82]

Is it really in good taste to use the death of Patriarch Alexy II and the kind gesture of prayers offered by the Pope for his soul to make some sort of theological point?

 

[Spirithound]

We know that he did not because in his public audience he asked for prayers for the Patriarch’s soul. This is not necessary if he gave him a plenary indulgence and the Patriarch has been released from Purgatory and is now in Heaven.

So back to the OP - is the Pope unable to give a plenary indulgence to release the Patriarch from his sufferings in Purgatory?

The Pope could certainly apply an indulgence that he obtained to the repose of the Patriarch. Several posters have said, and I agree that it may be unwise to announce it publicly. Also, it is difficult to know if you have the proper disposition to receive a plenary indulgence. That could be why he is asking for our prayers also.

 

[dvdjs]

From rad:

I have been told that only members of the Catholic faith can obtain indulgences.

… if he gave him a plenary indulgence and the Patriarch has been released from Purgatory and is now in Heaven.

… years of suffering for the unpaid debts of his sins …

Rad, you’ve made it clear that you don’t know much about indulgences in the Catholic church. Probably a good idea to get that sorted out before asking the “odd question”.

 

[tdgesq]

Is it really in good taste to use the death of Patriarch Alexy II and the kind gesture of prayers offered by the Pope for his soul to make some sort of theological point?

Agreed. It’s like speculating on the sincerity of the prayers that the Orthodox offered up for John Paul II. Rad is out of line.

 

[linuxgeek71]

So back to the OP - is the Pope unable to give a plenary indulgence to release the Patriarch from his sufferings in Purgatory?

I don’t know if he can just give them out or not, but even if he could I doubt he would. The Church does not give them out to anyone else, why would there be an exception now? They have to be earned. The conditions for earning a plenary indulgence require you to be perfectly free from all sin, even venial. This is not easy.

 

[rad]

This may seem an odd question but would the Pope consider giving a plenary indulgence to Patriarch Alexey or are indulgences only for Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics?

The ony answer so far is that the Pope could have done this but in secreto so as not to upset the Orthodox.

Someone says I know nothing about indulgences but it looks like the messages here are not really on sure ground, for example, nobody knows if non-Catholics are able to obtain indulgences for themselves and for the dead.

Someone else said something about lack of sincerity but I don’t see any of that. Just a simple question really, and the answers unsure and vague. But no insincerity in evidence.

 

[linuxgeek71]

Someone says I know nothing about indulgences but it looks like the messages here are not really on sure ground, for example, nobody knows if non-Catholics are able to obtain indulgences for themselves and for the dead.

Someone else said something about lack of sincerity but I don’t see any of that. Just a simple question really, and the answers unsure and vague. But no insincerity in evidence.

Norm 1:
An indulgence is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned. This remission the faithful with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquire through the intervention of the Church which, as minister of the Redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the Saints.
An indulgence is partial or plenary, according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due for sin.

Norm 6:
The faithful, who at least with contrite heart perform an action to which a partial indulgence is attached, obtain, in addition to the remission of temporal punishment acquired by the action itself, an equal remission of punishment through the intervention of the Church.

Norm 22:
To be capable of gaining an indulgence for oneself, it is required that one be

* baptized,
* not excommunicated,
* in the state of grace at least at the completion of the prescribed works, and
* a subject of the one granting the indulgence.

In order that one who is capable may actually gain indulgences,

* one must have at least a general intention to gain them
* and must in accordance with the tenor of the grant perform the enjoined works at the time and in the manner prescribed.

‘The faithful’ is a clear reference to Catholics. So no, non-Catholics may not merit an indulgence. All gifts the Church bestows on the faithful depend on faith.

 

[rad]

Norm 1:
An indulgence is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned. This remission the faithful with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquire through the intervention of the Church which, as minister of the Redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the Saints.
An indulgence is partial or plenary, according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due for sin.

Norm 6:
The faithful, who at least with contrite heart perform an action to which a partial indulgence is attached, obtain, in addition to the remission of temporal punishment acquired by the action itself, an equal remission of punishment through the intervention of the Church.

Norm 22:
To be capable of gaining an indulgence for oneself, it is required that one be

* baptized,
* not excommunicated,
* in the state of grace at least at the completion of the prescribed works, and
* a subject of the one granting the indulgence.

In order that one who is capable may actually gain indulgences,

* one must have at least a general intention to gain them
* and must in accordance with the tenor of the grant perform the enjoined works at the time and in the manner prescribed.

‘The faithful’ is a clear reference to Catholics. So no, non-Catholics may not merit an indulgence. All gifts the Church bestows on the faithful depend on faith.

Thank you, and yes, I knew all that even though Cathiolics always think that non-Catholics are abysmally ignorant about even the simplest Catholic things.

But the one question which I placed before the list still does not have a clear answer----

May a Catholic gain an indulgence which he can apply to someone in Purgatory who was, while alive, a non-Catholic?

Or is it only those who died as Catholics who may be granted a shortening of their time in Purgatory by indulgences which living Catholics obtain and apply to them?

I suppose this would mean that while people who died as Catholics may have their Purgatory time shortened and even abolished completly via a plenary indulgence, a non-Catholic must serve out their Purgatory time in full with no hope of any early remission?

 

[linuxgeek71]

Thank you, and yes, I knew all that even though Cathiolics always think that non-Catholics are abysmally ignorant about even the simplest Catholic things.

But the one question which I placed before the list still does not have a clear answer----

I did not think you were ignorant I just do not understand the line of questioning given that you aren’t Catholic.

May a Catholic gain an indulgence which he can apply to someone in Purgatory who was, while alive, a non-Catholic?

Or is it only those who died as Catholics who may be granted a shortening of their time in Purgatory by indulgences which living Catholics obtain and apply to them?

I suppose this would mean that while people who died as Catholics may have their Purgatory time shortened and even abolished completly via a plenary indulgence, a non-Catholic must serve out their Purgatory time in full with no hope of any early remission?

Any person in purgatory has had the truth revealed to him, thus all souls in purgatory are Catholic. So an indulgence can be applied to any soul, no matter their failings in life.