Indulgences 101 ... please explain/defend

[brb3]

From www.mycatholicsource.com …

Ques. Why does one need indulgences ?

Ans. "For the just man falls seven times [a day]. Prov. 24:16 EVEN WHEN WE CONFESS OUR SINS, the ‘slight’ penances given in Confession are NOT SUFFICIENT TO REMIT THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT due to sin and leave a ‘debt of justice’ to God. If this debt is not paid here, it must be paid AFTER OUR DEATH [e.g. in purgatory]. Indulgences draw from the inexhaustible “Treasury” of the Church [which contains the merits of Christ, his blessed Mother, and the Saints], are a 'relatively easy way of discharging the debt owed to God.

Now… how does this Ans. square with 1 John 1:9 ? “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just AND WILL FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Are Catholics really admitting that a Priest can’t absolve [cleanse] us of ALL aspects of confessed sins ? Do we also believe that our Private Confessions are not Fully Efficacious in this regard ? Don’t we believe we pay the temporal effects for our confessed sins in this world [as did King David] … and not the next ?

Anyone believe David wasn’t fully purged of effects of his sins before his death ?
Don’t we believe that those 7 daily sins of a Righteous man are Venial ones … which my priest tells me DON’T NEED TO BE CONFESSED TO HIM. He only wants my Mortals confessed.

 

[steve_b]

From www.mycatholicsource.com …

Ques. Why does one need indulgences ?

Ans. "For the just man falls seven times [a day]. Prov. 24:16 EVEN WHEN WE CONFESS OUR SINS, the ‘slight’ penances given in Confession are NOT SUFFICIENT TO REMIT THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT due to sin and leave a ‘debt of justice’ to God. If this debt is not paid here, it must be paid AFTER OUR DEATH [e.g. in purgatory]. Indulgences draw from the inexhaustible “Treasury” of the Church [which contains the merits of Christ, his blessed Mother, and the Saints], are a 'relatively easy way of discharging the debt owed to God.

Now… how does this Ans. square with 1 John 1:9 ? “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just AND WILL FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Are Catholics really admitting that a Priest can’t absolve [cleanse] us of ALL aspects of confessed sins ? Do we also believe that our Private Confessions are not Fully Efficacious in this regard ? Don’t we believe we pay the temporal effects for our confessed sins in this world [as did King David] … and not the next ?

dispose of myths first catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

From Paul VI vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

brb:

Anyone believe David wasn’t fully purged of effects of his sins before his death ?
Don’t we believe that those 7 daily sins of a Righteous man are Venial ones … which my priest tells me DON’T NEED TO BE CONFESSED TO HIM. He only wants my Mortals confessed.

*1 Jn 5: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. *

So the question is, what do you do with mortal sin?

Jesus gave the power to forgive ALL sin (venial AND mortal) to His apostles, and those the apostles ordained. [Jn 20:22…] the apostles couldn’t know what sins to forgive or retain if they didn’t know what the sin was. It presumes confessing one’s sins to a priest, especially the mortal kind. And with the power they have been given in apostolic ordination they do what Jesus gave them power to do.

 

[RosaryFan]

From www.mycatholicsource.com …

Ques. Why does one need indulgences ?

Ans. "For the just man falls seven times [a day]. Prov. 24:16 EVEN WHEN WE CONFESS OUR SINS, the ‘slight’ penances given in Confession are NOT SUFFICIENT TO REMIT THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT due to sin and leave a ‘debt of justice’ to God. If this debt is not paid here, it must be paid AFTER OUR DEATH [e.g. in purgatory]. Indulgences draw from the inexhaustible “Treasury” of the Church [which contains the merits of Christ, his blessed Mother, and the Saints], are a 'relatively easy way of discharging the debt owed to God.

Now… how does this Ans. square with 1 John 1:9 ? “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just AND WILL FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Are Catholics really admitting that a Priest can’t absolve [cleanse] us of ALL aspects of confessed sins ? Do we also believe that our Private Confessions are not Fully Efficacious in this regard ? Don’t we believe we pay the temporal effects for our confessed sins in this world [as did King David] … and not the next ?

Anyone believe David wasn’t fully purged of effects of his sins before his death ?
Don’t we believe that those 7 daily sins of a Righteous man are Venial ones … which my priest tells me DON’T NEED TO BE CONFESSED TO HIM. He only wants my Mortals confessed.

Forgiving and restitution are two different things. Christ forgives us through the words of the Priest in Confession; but restitution (or penance) is OUR job. We can either do it on earth, or in purgatory. Either way, we have to pay for the sin. That is why “offering up your suffering” is beneficial. Padre Pio said “Suffering is a gift from God; blessed is he who knows how to profit by it”.

When you break a neighbor’s window, if you apologize they forgive you. However, don’t you still have to pay for a new window? Does that mean the forgiveness doesn’t happen until the window is paid for? Of course not! You are forgiven the moment you ask for forgiveness, but you still have to pay for a new window. That is your portion of the responsibility. Christ does his portion (forgiving us) and we do our portion (making restitution).

I hope that rather uneloquent explanation was at least a little helpful.

 

[brb3]

So, we do penance only for Mortal sins … not for Venial ones ?

And, we confess only Mortal ones to Priests, and do private confession for Venials ?

Indulgences are only needed for ‘confessed’ Mortal sins … that aren’t satisfied in this life via suffering ?

 

[steve_b]

So, we do penance only for Mortal sins … not for Venial ones ?

And, we confess only Mortal ones to Priests, and do private confession for Venials ?

Indulgences are only needed for ‘confessed’ Mortal sins … that aren’t satisfied in this life via suffering ?

Venial sins don’t require sacramental confession for forgiveness. Make an act of contrition to God and venial sins are forgiven.

Penance is for ALL sin, mortal & venial. As John says *1 Jn 5: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. *

As Paul VI wrote in the link provided previously
For all men who walk this earth daily commit at least venial sins;(11) thus all need the mercy of God to be set free from the penal consequences of sin.

Therefore, indulgences are for ALL sin venial and mortal

 

[InternetWoman]

Just a note - venial sins are also forgiven at Mass, when we say the prayer at the beginning “I confess to Almighty God and to you my brother and sisters…”

Of course this also assumes you are sorry for those sins and have a firm purpose of amendment.

Just like mortal sins, you can’t “cheat” and confess something you have every intention of repeating.

 

[InternetWoman]

Maybe these will help:

catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

 

[RosaryFan]

So, we do penance only for Mortal sins … not for Venial ones ?

And, we confess only Mortal ones to Priests, and do private confession for Venials ?

Indulgences are only needed for ‘confessed’ Mortal sins … that aren’t satisfied in this life via suffering ?

Penance must be done for both mortal and venial sins. Purgatory is our penance that we didn’t finish on earth for the damage we’ve done through ALL sins committed during our lifetime - both venial and mortal - even though we’ve obtained forgiveness through the sacrament of confession.

 

[RosaryFan]

Venial sins don’t require sacramental confession for forgiveness. Make an act of contrition to God and venial sins are forgiven.

Although this is a fact, that venial sins do not “require” sacramental confession, it is prudent to visit this most wonderful and understated sacrament (confession) often! You receive graces and strength to avoid even those pesky little daily venial sins that damage our relationship with God. These graces cannot be obtained by making an Act of Contrition, but only through sacramental reconciliation.

Keep in mind that venial sins do not BREAK our relationship with God, but they do DAMAGE our relationship with God and, therefore, weaken our ability to avoid sin going forward. This opens us up to the possibility of committing mortal sins.

It is always wise to utilize the sacraments as much as possible. Even Pope John Paul II went to confession once a week. It is foolish to wait until we have mortal sins to visit the sacrament of confession.

 

[steve_b]

Although this is a fact, that venial sins do not “require” sacramental confession, it is prudent to visit this most wonderful and understated sacrament (confession) often! You receive graces and strength to avoid even those pesky little daily venial sins that damage our relationship with God. These graces cannot be obtained by making an Act of Contrition, but only through sacramental reconciliation.

Keep in mind that venial sins do not BREAK our relationship with God, but they do DAMAGE our relationship with God and, therefore, weaken our ability to avoid sin going forward. This opens us up to the possibility of committing mortal sins.

It is always wise to utilize the sacraments as much as possible. Even Pope John Paul II went to confession once a week. It is foolish to wait until we have mortal sins to visit the sacrament of confession.

Thanks for that. I wanted to make those very points also…but it was too late to edit my post.

 

[RosaryFan]

Thanks for that. I wanted to make those very points also…but it was too late to edit my post.

I hate when that happens!

 

[brb3]

John says *1 Jn 5: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give ‘him’ life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
Steve b …

1 Jn 5:16 above says God will give ‘him’ life. Who is the ‘him’ ? … the one who sees, or the brother that is sinning ?

 

[steve_b]

Steve b …

1 Jn 5:16 above says God will give ‘him’ life. Who is the ‘him’ ? … the one who sees, or the brother that is sinning ?

The example is for the one who is sinning

 

[brb3]

John says *1 Jn 5: 16 …There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. *

Steve b …

About the above part of John’s teaching.

Questions: Are we NOT to pray for our brethren who are committing Mortals ? Are we wrong to do so … ie. Forbidden from doing so ?

Or … is John saying if we do … it’s of not avail to them ?
Does John only intend this to apply to Christian brothers/sisters living in unconfessed Mortal Sin … or for the heathen also ?

 

[Erich]

Don’t we believe we pay the temporal effects for our confessed sins in this world [as did King David] … and not the next ?

Imagine your teenager just did something that got him/her grounded for a month. Now imagine that about halfway through the “grounding” you decide, based on his/her actions, that the penalty should be reduced to “time served”. You’ve effectively just granted an indulgence, since the temporal punishment was for a full month!

 

[steve_b]

Steve b …

About the above part of John’s teaching.

Questions: Are we NOT to pray for our brethren who are committing Mortals ? Are we wrong to do so … ie. Forbidden from doing so ?

Sure, we pray for everyone especially for those committing mortal sin.

John is making a distinction between mortal and venial sin and how we deal with each type for forgiveness. As John says, venial sin is okay to pray about for forgiveness and God forgives us. He doesn’t recommend praying about mortal sin for forgiveness like one would do for venial sin.

Therefore ridding oneself of mortal sin is different.

Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain ALL sin to His apostles. Why give that power, if all one has to do is pray for forgiveness for ALL sins, and your sins are forgiven? No need in that case to go to confession…right? No need for the apostles to even have that authority… right?

John is teaching about a distinction between sins. If venial sins can be forgiven with prayer, and mortal sin he treats differently, then the sure fire approach to get rid of mortal sin is confess all sins, particularly all mortal sins to a priest who CAN forgive sins…

For example. Deliberately missing mass on Sunday, is a mortal sin.

How many Catholics deliberately miss mass on Sundays and holy days? That sin requires sacramental confession because it’s a mortal sin.

brb:

Or … is John saying if we do … it’s of not avail to them ?

It’s strongly stated one way is not recommended.

brb:

Does John only intend this to apply to Christian brothers/sisters living in unconfessed Mortal Sin … or for the heathen also ?

If a Christian doesn’t know this passage then educate them. Non Catholics think Catholics pull venial and mortal sin out of a hat. They think all sin is the same. A heathen has the ability to know what’s right and wrong also. Therefore, educate them as well.

BTW, scripture gives the guideline for what is mortal sin. It’s the sin where one won’t inherit heaven if they die in that sin.

Examples

*Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness…… 5 *Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fearful and fiery judgement.

*Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance *

*Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven *

Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Know anybody with these kinds of sins? These are mortal because of the consequences. Notice that sexual sins, immorality, lust, play a huge part in peoples downfall.

 

[steve_b]

Imagine your teenager just did something that got him/her grounded for a month. Now imagine that about halfway through the “grounding” you decide, based on his/her actions, that the penalty should be reduced to “time served”. You’ve effectively just granted an indulgence, since the temporal punishment was for a full month!

excellent example. Courts do it all the time. They just don’t call it indulgence.

 

[brb3]

Therefore ridding oneself of mortal sin is different.

Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain ALL sin to His apostles. Why give that power, if all one has to do is pray for forgiveness for ALL sins, and your sins are forgiven? No need in that case to go to confession…right? No need for the apostles to even have that authority… right?

John is teaching about a distinction between sins. If venial sins can be forgiven with prayer, and mortal sin he treats differently, then the sure fire approach to get rid of mortal sin is confess all sins, particularly all mortal sins to a priest who CAN forgive sins…

For example. Deliberately missing mass on Sunday, is a mortal sin.

How many Catholics deliberately miss mass on Sundays and holy days? That sin requires sacramental confession because it’s a mortal sin.

Steve b …

what you teach above is the Gold Standard ! But … lets be realistic.

OUR CHURCH allows us to Confess Annually to Priest and still be in good standing, … provided our annual confession is contrite and complete. What % of we Catholics make 100% of Masses in a year ? Maybe 20 % … I’d guess.

Isn’t this highly problematic for the Church to let 80 % of us go a large part of the year … living with unconfessed Mortal Sin ? Doesn’t the Church implicitly teach that as long as that Catholic who misses a few Masses in a year promptly confesses those sins to our HIGHEST PRIEST, Christ the Lord [via Private Confessions] … is not in danger of hell’s fire if we died before our annual Lenten Confessions to our Priest ?

For example, I just went before my Priest for annual Confession. I confessed 6-7 missed Masses and some sexual sins. I mentioned I had preformed ‘private’ confessions of them immediately after committing them. My Priest did not warn/inform me that Jesus had not forgiven me, and that I had run risk of Hell’s Fire by waiting to come before him almost 9 months later.

Also, God did not lay upon my heart that I had not been fully forgiven of these Mortals, [Mortals I had full intentions of bringing before the Priest within that same year].

Something seems askew … about what you teach above. Otherwise, our Priests are not doing a good job of informing us of our ignorance on Forgiveness of Mortals & Proper Confession protocol.

 

[steve_b]

Steve b …

what you teach above is the Gold Standard ! But … lets be realistic.

OUR CHURCH allows us to Confess Annually to Priest and still be in good standing, … provided our annual confession is contrite and complete.

That’s NOT for mortal sin.

brb:

What % of we Catholics make 100% of Masses in a year ? Maybe 20 % … I’d guess.

I guess I’m in that 20%

brb:

Isn’t this highly problematic for the Church to let 80 % of us go a large part of the year … living with unconfessed Mortal Sin ? Doesn’t the Church implicitly teach that as long as that Catholic who misses a few Masses in a year promptly confesses those sins to our HIGHEST PRIEST, Christ the Lord [via Private Confessions] … is not in danger of hell’s fire if we died before our annual Lenten Confessions to our Priest ?

No. The teaching is explicit not implicit. Also, the Church doesn’t live our lives for us. .

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)

**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

**1457 **According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.

Now let’s say one is aware of commiting a mortal sin. How soon does one want to get rid of that sin from their soul given CCC #1035?. How about immediately!!! Would they wait 9 mos? I sure hope not.

No one knows the time we will die.

brb:

For example, I just went before my Priest for annual Confession. I confessed 6-7 missed Masses and some sexual sins. I mentioned I had preformed ‘private’ confessions of them immediately after committing them. My Priest did not warn/inform me that Jesus had not forgiven me, and that I had run risk of Hell’s Fire by waiting to come before him almost 9 months later.

Barb, read CCC # 1457 above again. Is private confession okay for forgiveness of mortal sin? No. Was private confession okay with the passage I quoted in 1 John, regarding forgiveness of mortal sin? No

Again, what if one died in mortal sin sometime before their next confession 9 mos down the road? Read CCC #1035 again

WE are the stewards of our own soul. The Church teaches, we respond either by obedience or disobedience…right? The Church can’t and doesn’t force us to do what’s right or does the Church follow us around to make sure we live our faith out properly. That’s up to us individually. No questions are asked at the Eucharist before one receives, to make sure one isn’t in mortal sin. Sin is our personal responsibility, and one can’t escape the individual consequences tied to sin if they aren’t good stewards of their own souls…

(Cont)

 

[steve_b]

Steve b …

For example, I just went before my Priest for annual Confession. I confessed 6-7 missed Masses

Re: missing mass (presumably intentional)

From the CCC

**2181 **The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation
commit a grave sin.

Grave sin = deadly/mortal sin

BTW, a pastor doesn’t dispense a person from mass unless there is a very good reason.

Check this out

Heb 10:
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 Forif we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Notice the points?
· Deliberately missing mass is already a serious sin
· One might say I don’t see mass in that passage. Well,
o how is it there is no longer a sacrifice for sin
o how does one spurn the son of God,
o profane the blood of the covenant,
o outrage the spirit of grace,
o just by failing to meet as is the habit of some?
· And what is the sacrifice for sin, and blood of the covenant refering to? It’s The Eucharist.* **Matthew 26:28 *This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.Jesus said those words instituting the Eucharist. Jesus further describes what the Eucharist means for the soul. Jn 6:53 unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Therefore, how does God see the person who intentionally misses mass/Eucharist? Scripture says
o they spurn the son of God
o they profane the blood of the covenant
o they outrage the spirit of grace.
o no sacrifice for sin is left for them
o but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries

THAT’S serious sin! Agreed?

brb:

Something seems askew … about what you teach above. Otherwise, our Priests are not doing a good job of informing us of our ignorance on Forgiveness of Mortals & Proper Confession protocol.

I don’t teach anything. I just pass on information.