Indulgences 101 ... please explain/defend

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John 21:25. We don’t do Sola Scriptura in this Church.
Yet you cite scripture here as your ONLY proof … 🙂

Again, … support your claims that Paul was known to ‘frequently’ confess his sins to a Presbyter ----- as his sole confessor, in order to enable/receive forgiveness of sins .
 
Jesus our high priest, ordained his apostles to forgive sins… That requires one to make an oral confession. So within the context of confession to a priest, James writes

[16]* “Confess therefore your sins one to another”… That is, to the priests of the church, whom (ver. 14) he had ordered to be called for, and brought in to the sick; moreover, to confess to persons who had no power to forgive sins, would be useless. Hence the precept here means, that we must confess to men whom God hath appointed, and who, by their ordination and jurisdiction, have received the power of remitting sins in his name.*
steve b …

Do you confess on regular basis to Jesus … as he taught you to ? Weren’t you, and all Catholics, taught to ‘pray w/o ceasing’ ?

1st Thess: 5:17 Rejoice always, pray w/o ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS FOR YOU. How are you gonna follow Christ’s will / Paul’s teaching on prayer … if you think only confessions to Catholic priests are efficacious for us ?

Doesn’t our Church recognize/acknowlege this essential need/reality of private confession ? The fact our doctrines call for [at minimum] an ANNUAL CONFESSION … testifies to this recognition by our ‘apostolic ordained’ priests.
 
1519 was when things REALLY heated up for Luther. 1521 he was excommunicated and then the gloves were off…finding a passage at that point where he was pro-purgatory would indeed be a challenge. I’m no Luther apologist but I will say that when quoting someone who went through a huge change or spiritual journey in their lives like Luther, looking at the dates is important.

Take someone like John Henry Newman. If you quoted him in the early period, you’d come to the conclusion that the guy is a hardcore Anglican apologist. Quote him in the latter period, he’s a born-again Catholic on fire for the Church talking about deveopment of doctrine, etc.

Or Tertullian. One minute a Christian, the next a Montanist!
Original year, 1517.
Translated and republished 1915.
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html
 
Matt. 28:18-19 \

Matt. 19:13-15

Matt. 6:6-15

Matt. 7:11

Matt. 9:2-13

I think Christ’s testimony disproves your assumptions that Christ is not personally/physically/and spiritually THE AUTHORITY we all must answer to for physical & spiritual healing. Confessing directly to God is absolutely to be encouraged … and the most effective means to absolution. Christ is our HIGH PRIEST … and always available to hear our Contrite private Confessions. This notion that we Only receive forgiveness of sins from a Catholic priest is w/o basis in scripture.
Amen! I believe and affirm those Bible verses. But I do not affirm your interpretation of them. You have overextended their meaning to deny the priestly faculty of granting absolution. Tell me, if praying privately to God is the “most effective means to absolution”, then why do we have an absolution-granting priesthood at all?
The Church has renounced your speaking in terms of Days/Years … regarding indulgences / penance.
No…What you are referring to is how a certain prayer or act used to be labelled as granting the same indulgence as an ancient penance lasting a certain number of days or years. I am referring to a penance that literally lasts TEN YEARS.
Yet you cite scripture here as your ONLY proof … 🙂

Again, … support your claims that Paul was known to ‘frequently’ confess his sins to a Presbyter ----- as his sole confessor, in order to enable/receive forgiveness of sins .
Of course I cited Scripture. What else would you have accepted? I assume you already know the Church’s teaching that mortal sins can only be remitted through perfect contrition in personal prayer, or sacramental confession.

CCC 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

CCC 1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

I never said that Paul confessed regularly to a presbyter.
I never said that Paul was known to have confessed regularly to a presbyter.
I never said that Paul had only one presbyteral confessor.
 
1519 was when things REALLY heated up for Luther. 1521 he was excommunicated and then the gloves were off…finding a passage at that point where he was pro-purgatory would indeed be a challenge. I’m no Luther apologist but I will say that when quoting someone who went through a huge change or spiritual journey in their lives like Luther, looking at the dates is important.
Thank you for the context.
 
I never said that Paul confessed regularly to a presbyter.
I never said that Paul was known to have confessed regularly to a presbyter.
I never said that Paul had only one presbyteral confessor.
Ah Ha ! Now back off your position eh !! Don’t have the evidence from scripture or tradition … do you ?
 
You have overextended their meaning to deny the priestly faculty of granting absolution. Tell me, if praying privately to God is the “most effective means to absolution”, then why do we have an absolution-granting priesthood at all?
Yes, praying privately to God is the ‘most efficacious’ means to absolution. Clearly supportable from beginning to end of scriptures.

Nevertheless, we are social creatures. We also need the body of Christ, the Church, … and to confess to our brother/sisters, angels & saints, and especially our priests. Who else is gonna ‘audibly’ say “I ABSOLVE YOU OF SINS” ? The apostolic priesthood was given the papal keys & allowed to set the rules for the visible/audible Church. They say the words, God honors their judgment … and absolves ALL sins. Not just the ones we recalled and confessed to them … but, even the sins we didn’t recognize or recall.

Can one possibly recall/confess all sins in a single 10 minute priestly confession ?

This is why we must confess on daily basis to God … and receive ongoing, efficacious absolution on timely basis … Christ knowing that it is also our intention to make mention of these sins on periodic basis to our Church priest. CCC 1452 ]

Our Church recognizing the obvious, and ‘making the right call’ for its members. Always affirming that ONLY CHRIST FORGIVES OUR SINS !
 
I am referring to a penance that literally lasts TEN YEARS.

CCC 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.
Give us an example of a 10 year [earthly] penance … when Christ told the ‘contrite’ thief “this day you will be with me in Paradise”
 
Yes, praying privately to God is the ‘most efficacious’ means to absolution. Clearly supportable from beginning to end of scriptures.
Then why not stick to the most efficacious means?
Nevertheless, we are social creatures.
:confused:
We also need the body of Christ, the Church, … and to confess to our brother/sisters, angels & saints, and especially our priests. Who else is gonna ‘audibly’ say “I ABSOLVE YOU OF SINS” ?
Brothers, sisters, angels and saints can absolve your sins? :confused: You’ve audibly heard saints and angels absolve your sins?
The apostolic priesthood was given the papal keys & allowed to set the rules for the visible/audible Church.
The “apostolic priesthood” was given the “papal keys” to set rules? I’ve never seen it expressed like this.
Our Church recognizing the obvious, and ‘making the right call’ for its members. Always affirming that ONLY CHRIST FORGIVES OUR SINS !
What do you say about Col. 1:13-14?
 
Give us an example of a 10 year [earthly] penance … when Christ told the ‘contrite’ thief “this day you will be with me in Paradise”
Is there a 10 year non-earthly penance?
 
steve b …

Do you confess on regular basis to Jesus … as he taught you to ? Weren’t you, and all Catholics, taught to ‘pray w/o ceasing’ ?

1st Thess: 5:17 Rejoice always, pray w/o ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS FOR YOU. How are you gonna follow Christ’s will / Paul’s teaching on prayer … if you think only confessions to Catholic priests are efficacious for us ?

Doesn’t our Church recognize/acknowlege this essential need/reality of private confession ? The fact our doctrines call for [at minimum] an ANNUAL CONFESSION … testifies to this recognition by our ‘apostolic ordained’ priests.
  • This is about degree of sin, and obedience of faith
  • When John said I don’t say you should pray about mortal sin like you would for venial sin, would one go aginst that instruction anyway and think they’re okay? Tons of people seem to do that. I personally wouldn’t. But I can’t live someone else’s life for them. Who are they really arguing with anyway? Who really is giving that warning? Is it John, or is it the Holy Spirit who is inspiring John to say that? Jesus said to His apostles, before He ascended back to heaven, I’m sending you the advocate, (the HS) who will cause you to remember everything I have taught you.[Jn 14:26]. So it’s really Jesus who is instructing us there through the HS, through John, to confess our sins and particularly THOSE sins to our Lord’s ministers, who can forgive and absolve ALL sin particularly mortal sins
  • The Church teaches that unless one is dieing and has no ability for sacramental confession, then the way to rid oneself of mortal sin is sacramental confession and absolution. And by all means rid ourselves of mortal sin ASAP, don’t wait. That’s why Jesus established the sacrament.
And we obey Jesus…and of course His Church
 
Ah Ha ! Now back off your position eh !! Don’t have the evidence from scripture or tradition … do you ?
From Confession and the Bible:Anyone who makes the claim that there is no foundation for the practice of confession of sins before a priest in the Bible, reveals an abysmal ignorance of what is actually written in the Bible. Several statements of our Lord unmistakably and directly command the Apostles to forgive sins in His name and with His authority. Several statements of St. Paul are also extremely direct in this matter.

The most obvious statement of Christ in regard to the Sacrament of Penance is found in the Gospel of St. John. After His Resurrection, Jesus confers authority upon the Apostles and tells them: “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I send you. . . Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you do not forgive, they are not forgiven.” (Jn 20:22-23) What could be more obvious than this statement? How anyone could say the Sacrament of Penance is man’s invention after reading this passage, would require some amazing verbal acrobatics! Note that the Apostles were commanded to forgive sins. How were they to forgive sins and judge which sins to forgive or not forgive, unless they know the sins? If a man’s sins were to be forgiven, they, therefore, had to first be revealed.
…
The Epistles of St. Paul provide us with further evidence concerning the Church’s power to judge sins. The incident from the Church in Corinth is especially to be noted in this regard. In the fifth chapter of the First Epistle to the Corinthians St. Paul writes that he has heard of a case of incest in the Corinthian community. He goes on to say: “The man who has done such a thing should be expelled from your fellowship. And even though I am far away from you in body, still I am there with you in spirit; and as though I were there with you, I have in the name of our Lord Jesus already passed judgment on the man who has done this terrible thing. As you meet together, and I meet with you in my spirit, by the power of our Lord Jesus present with us, you are to hand this man over to Satan for his body to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.” (I Cor. 5:3-5) St. Paul is here actually pronouncing excommunication from the Church on the unrepentant sinner. Notice that he speaks of passing judgment in the name of Jesus. Isn’t this exactly what the priest is expected to do in the Sacrament of Penance; to pass judgment on the sin and on the sinner’s sincerity of repentance?

We also find in St. Paul’s writings the earliest statement of absolution by an Apostle. He says:
“When you forgive someone for what he has done, I forgive him too. For when I forgive — if, indeed, I need to forgive anything — I do it in Christ’s presence because of you, in order to keep Satan from getting the upper hand over us; for we know what his plans are.” (II Cor. 2:10-11) Paul pronounces forgiveness for the repentant sinner! It is possible then for a man to know the sins of another man and to pronounce forgiveness of these sins, if the sinner has shown signs of repentance.

When the priest of the Church hears confession, imposes penance and pronounces absolution, he does so with the authority of the Lord and in the name of the Lord and, as was hopefully demonstrated by this article, at the direct command of the Lord.
 
Then why not stick to the most efficacious means?
I do. But, Christ also desires periodic confession to his apostolic priests … who catch our errors, advise us of our blind spots, and audibly speak to us for Christ.

As with many questions we pose, its not an either/or answer … it’s BOTH.
 
Brothers, sisters, angels and saints can absolve your sins? :confused: You’ve audibly heard saints and angels absolve your sins?
No.

But, Catholics ask both our Church Militant & Church Triumphant brethren to ‘pray’ for us, to the Lord our God … that he forgive us and keep us unitied in our faiths.
 
Give us an example of a 10 year [earthly] penance … when Christ told the ‘contrite’ thief “this day you will be with me in Paradise”
Wear sackcloth for 10 years.
 
How do I do penance for my own sins? and how do I pray for those in purgatory? Is there a set prayer or prayers, do I have be free from the effects of my own sins before my penance can be applied to others?
 
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