Indulgences

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I was raised in the Catholic Church and I attend my parish. However I have some difficulties to accept the Catholic teaching. Especially I don’t believe in the indulgences.
Do you think that I am still a Catholic?
 
Just curious, what do you believe indulgences are? They are misunderstood by a lot of people.

As for whether or not you are Catholic… I don’t know you that well, so I can’t really say. But Catholicism is not a pick and choose religion.
 
Just curious, what do you believe indulgences are? They are misunderstood by a lot of people.
“Can. 992 An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
There is no biblical fundation of this teaching.
 
“Can. 992 An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
There is no biblical fundation of this teaching.
So where did this teaching come from?

I understand that the reason Luther broke away was because some Pope was needing funds to build a cathedral and poor and rich alike were being charged money to have sins paid in full, which Jesus had already paid in full.

It almost seems as if the Catholic Church doesn’t believe people are thankful enough for the debt Jesus paid, or that the people don’t understand the full weight of the Sacrifice.

I would like to know more about this treasury where did that idea come from?
 
Or rather, to sum up the approach of many Catholics to such questions: “Stop thinking.”
Precisely! Leave your brain at the door! The Catholic Church will tell you what to think.
 
So where did this teaching come from?

I understand that the reason Luther broke away was because some Pope was needing funds to build a cathedral and poor and rich alike were being charged money to have sins paid in full, which Jesus had already paid in full.

It almost seems as if the Catholic Church doesn’t believe people are thankful enough for the debt Jesus paid, or that the people don’t understand the full weight of the Sacrifice.

I would like to know more about this treasury where did that idea come from?
This idea came from the Catholic Church. Could it have come from “Sacred Tradition”?
 
Go back to the story of King David in the Old Testament. When he has Uriah killed and takes his wife as his own, then conceives a child with her, what does the prophet Nathan tell him? He tells David that God has forgiven him BUT the child shall surely die. Was he forgiven his sin? Yes. Was there still a price to be paid for that sin, although it was forgiven? Yes.

The common example given to illustrate this point is that of a kid playing baseball and bats the ball right through a neighbor’s window. Being contrite, he goes over and knocks on the door and apologizes (asks for forgiveness). The neighbor forgives him, so the matter of forgiveness is settled. Now there is the matter of replacing the window and burdening that cost. It doesn’t necessarily follow that because the neighbor forgave the child for breaking the window that they would automatically assume the cost of fixing the window too. That might be rightfully put on the child and does not influence forgiveness one way or the other.

Thus when you sin, you can seek and receive forgiveness but that doesn’t necessarily square you with the almighty any more than King David’s admission of his sin and repentance did. You will note Nathan even talks about the consequences of David’s sin - it gave the enemies of Jehovah cause to blaspheme - meaning there were consequences beyond just something between David and God. That’s the same for all our sins; there are always external consequences for the things we do. There is still the temporal punishment to be dealt with. For Catholics, this temporal punishment is dealt with through completing a penance assigned by the priest at the time of confession.

An indulgence only deals with addressing that temporal punishment; it does not in and of itself “forgive sin” or “make up for sins.” If you look at what is required to earn an indulgence, they are most often associated with sacramental confession (i.e. - being in a state of grace first) and other conditions such as attending Mass/receiving the Eucharist, praying for the intentions of the Pope, etc. It isn’t a matter of just showing up and writing a check and you’re done. In fact the giving of alms (money) is but one of many ways to earn an indulgence, and in all of those cases there is much more involved than just money.

In the time of Luther, this giving of alms was emphasized over the other possible ways of earning them. In fact one of the things that set Luther off was that the city/state he lived in did not allow them, but the neighboring ones did. Members of his flock went across the bridge and gave the money, then presented the indulgence to him at their confessions. This kind of sales campaign style peddling of indulgences was wrong, and the way indulgences have been handled since then over the years illustrates that.

Nothing about an indulgence interferes with or substitutes in any way for the price Jesus paid on the cross for all of our sins. All of it has to do with the temporal punishment aspect associated with the acts of our sins. It would be instructive for those who don’t believe in indulgences to actually go look up what is involved in earning one and you will see it is not simply a matter of cash-N-go for sin.
 
Go back to the story of King David in the Old Testament. When he has Uriah killed and takes his wife as his own, then conceives a child with her, what does the prophet Nathan tell him? He tells David that God has forgiven him BUT the child shall surely die. Was he forgiven his sin? Yes. Was there still a price to be paid for that sin, although it was forgiven? Yes.

The common example given to illustrate this point is that of a kid playing baseball and bats the ball right through a neighbor’s window. Being contrite, he goes over and knocks on the door and apologizes (asks for forgiveness). The neighbor forgives him, so the matter of forgiveness is settled. Now there is the matter of replacing the window and burdening that cost. It doesn’t necessarily follow that because the neighbor forgave the child for breaking the window that they would automatically assume the cost of fixing the window too. That might be rightfully put on the child and does not influence forgiveness one way or the other.

Thus when you sin, you can seek and receive forgiveness but that doesn’t necessarily square you with the almighty any more than King David’s admission of his sin and repentance did. You will note Nathan even talks about the consequences of David’s sin - it gave the enemies of Jehovah cause to blaspheme - meaning there were consequences beyond just something between David and God. That’s the same for all our sins; there are always external consequences for the things we do. There is still the temporal punishment to be dealt with. For Catholics, this temporal punishment is dealt with through completing a penance assigned by the priest at the time of confession.

An indulgence only deals with addressing that temporal punishment; it does not in and of itself “forgive sin” or “make up for sins.” If you look at what is required to earn an indulgence, they are most often associated with sacramental confession (i.e. - being in a state of grace first) and other conditions such as attending Mass/receiving the Eucharist, praying for the intentions of the Pope, etc. It isn’t a matter of just showing up and writing a check and you’re done. In fact the giving of alms (money) is but one of many ways to earn an indulgence, and in all of those cases there is much more involved than just money.

In the time of Luther, this giving of alms was emphasized over the other possible ways of earning them. In fact one of the things that set Luther off was that the city/state he lived in did not allow them, but the neighboring ones did. Members of his flock went across the bridge and gave the money, then presented the indulgence to him at their confessions. This kind of sales campaign style peddling of indulgences was wrong, and the way indulgences have been handled since then over the years illustrates that.
Yes I understand this GOD forgives when we repent and that there was a need to somehow repair the debt that sin caused. A need to make things right.

That is exactly the debt that Jesus paid and the reason for HIIS sacrifice.
Nothing about an indulgence interferes with or substitutes in any way for the price Jesus paid on the cross for all of our sins. All of it has to do with the temporal punishment aspect associated with the acts of our sins. It would be instructive for those who don’t believe in indulgences to actually go look up what is involved in earning one and you will see it is not simply a matter of cash-N-go for sin.
Actually it does if one must believe in indulgences to be saved?
 
Yes I understand this GOD forgives when we repent and that there was a need to somehow repair the debt that sin caused. A need to make things right.
That is exactly the debt that Jesus paid and the reason for HIIS sacrifice.
Not* exactly. Do you understand what the CCC means by temporal punishment?
 
“Can. 992 An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
There is no biblical fundation of this teaching.
The alternative to believing in indulgences is to believe that we will have to pay in-full **after death **to satisfy the temporal punishment for our sins. I prefer to think that I can work/pray/serve some of that off here on earth. Otherwise, if I am lucky, I will be spending an awful long time in Purgatory. 🙂
 
Actually it does if one must believe in indulgences to be saved?
If one doesn’t believe in indulgences, it is not the case that he or she will not be saved. However, if one does not believe in the authority of the Church that is behind the teaching about indulgences, one would be risking his/her salvation.
 
“Can. 992 An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
There is no biblical fundation of this teaching.
Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished.”
Your sins are forgiven and forgotten. Go and sin no more.

bluelake
 
If one doesn’t believe in indulgences, it is not the case that he or she will not be saved. However, if one does not believe in the authority of the Church that is behind the teaching about indulgences, one would be risking his/her salvation.
‘The authority of the church?’
Churches do not save anyone. A church is a place we go to worship the Lord, not an authority.

bluelake
 
Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished.”
Your sins are forgiven and forgotten. Go and sin no more.
“Go and sin no more”. Excellent; now we are coming to grips with the idea of temporal punishment.
 
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