Indulgences

[Syele]

ok… but Kitty had a problem with the idea that sins are removed.
How is that different to sins being paid for. Where are the sins when they are paid for, and when exactly are they paid for?
Thanks.

Well, going back to the restaurant analogy… just because someone else paid the price for my meal doesn’t mean I didn’t eat it in the first place. I still ate it and it is still I who will get a stomach ache if it was poisoned food, not the one who paid the price. If the food was poisoned so much that I was not only sick, but I die… I’m done suffering with food poisoning once I’m dead.

Jesus paid for our sins when He died on the cross. even the ones we committed way after His death or after we accepted the gift. He didn’t remove the earthly consequences of the sin from us, He paid the debt we incurred for doing it. We will still suffer the consequences of our actions as long as we are living on this earth. Once we are dead though we go to judgment. God will see our debt as paid in full because Jesus paid our debt to God already.

 

[Cat]

Syele, you say that we suffer the consequences for our actions as long as we are alive on this earth.

But that’s not what the Bible says! I Corinthians 3 talks about our works being burned away AFTER we die, not before.

 

[Syele]

Syele, you say that we suffer the consequences for our actions as long as we are alive on this earth.

But that’s not what the Bible says! I Corinthians 3 talks about our works being burned away AFTER we die, not before.

It says our Works are burned, not ourselves.

 

[Cat]

I can’t drop this.

The last Protestant church that our family attended was an E Free church for seven years. During that time, I was active in several children’s ministries, and my ministries flourished. In two years, my children’s choir/drama grew from 24 childen to over 60 children.

My older daughter served on the leadership committee in her youth group.

My younger daughter tried, but from the first, she hated that church. But she still tried. She helped her sister teach Bible school and she helped me teach Bible school and choir.

Looking back, I suspect that there might have been some kind of sexual abuse of my younger daughter by someone in the church. She would never go into the church or any room by herself. She never sat with the youth group; instead, she and her boyfriend sat with us (her parents). And she had other physical symptoms that I won’t go into. Many times she said that the church is evil and begged us to quit and go to another church, and we ignored her. Blind, blind BLIND.

My husband didn’t have much time, but he was faithful in small ministries, donated to the church, and was a resource about scientific creationism.

A woman pastor in that church became jealous of my children’s ministries, and spread lies about me. She said that parents had come to her and complained about me. She wouldn’t tell me what the complaints were, but the awful implication is that there was some kind of sexual misconduct.

All of it was lies. Everytime I ran a children’s ministry, there were always other adults present, parents, for the sake of propriety.

But the pastors and deacons in that church chose to believe HER, not me. The other parents didn’t know what was going on until it was too late.

My husband asked the pastors to please follow the reconciliation process in Matthew 5 and Matthew 18. They said they would do so.

Instead, they convened a tribunal, including a deacon that had never met me and that I had never seen before. They tried and condemned us, accusing me of being unloveable and unteachable. They threw us out. It was horrific.

They never called to check on us. A year later, at the advice of a trusted pastor from another Protestant church in our city, I wrote to all the parents in my children’s ministries and asked, straight out, if any of them had any complaints against me.

I received several letters from parents who said that they had gone as a group to the pastor and asked what happened, but the pastors told them that it was my choice to leave. LIES!

These parents told me that to their knowledge, no one had ever complained about me.

Around the same time, we learned that the church had fired the woman pastor after catching her in a lie. Apparently, she had been a pathological liar for a long time.

My point?

I believe that these people HAVE to be punished for what they did to me and my family. My younger daughter suffered who knows what at their hands, and they HAVE to be punished for that!

Their sin will not keep them out of heaven. THAT eternal penalty has been paid by Jesus on the cross.

But their temporal punishment will still be required.

For several years after it happened, I looked for a way to see them punished. The first thing I looked at is reporting them to the denominational headquarters. But there isn’t a “denominational headquarters” in the E Free denom. These churches are autonomous. The pastors in each church answer only to themselves and the congregation. There was NO HIGHER AUTHORITY that I could go to for help.

I looked into Christian mediation groups.

I asked pastors in my city if they would go and intervene. I was told by both Catholic and Protestant ministers that it wouldn’t work, that the best thing was just to let it go.

When I learned about the teaching of purgatory (I Corinthians 3), I finally took comfort in knowing that their sins will NOT be “covered” like snow over a dunghill. God will NOT ignore injustice!

He will purge these people of these sins one way or another, either in this life, or AFTER they are dead! Death will not free them from the requirement to REPAIR THE DAMAGE that they did to my family! God will not free them from this debt just because they die. That’s NOT what the Bible teaches!

What comfort!

Don’t tell me that Jesus just “covers all their sins” and “pays their debt for them” and “doesn’t hold them accountable any more.” If I believed that, then I would go get them myself and make them pay for what they did to my daughters and my family.

But because I believe in purgatory, or the “requirement of temporal punishment for sins,” I can rest.

 

[Syele]

I can’t drop this.

…
My point?

I believe that these people HAVE to be punished for what they did to me and my family. My younger daughter suffered who knows what at their hands, and they HAVE to be punished for that!

Their sin will not keep them out of heaven. THAT eternal penalty has been paid by Jesus on the cross.

But their temporal punishment will still be required.

For several years after it happened, I looked for a way to see them punished. The first thing I looked at is reporting them to the denominational headquarters. But there isn’t a “denominational headquarters” in the E Free denom. These churches are autonomous. The pastors in each church answer only to themselves and the congregation. There was NO HIGHER AUTHORITY that I could go to for help.

I looked into Christian mediation groups.

I asked pastors in my city if they would go and intervene. I was told by both Catholic and Protestant ministers that it wouldn’t work, that the best thing was just to let it go.

When I learned about the teaching of purgatory (I Corinthians 3), I finally took comfort in knowing that their sins will NOT be “covered” like snow over a dunghill. God will NOT ignore injustice!

He will purge these people of these sins one way or another, either in this life, or AFTER they are dead! Death will not free them from the requirement to REPAIR THE DAMAGE that they did to my family! God will not free them from this debt just because they die. That’s NOT what the Bible teaches!

What comfort!

Don’t tell me that Jesus just “covers all their sins” and “pays their debt for them” and “doesn’t hold them accountable any more.” If I believed that, then I would go get them myself and make them pay for what they did to my daughters and my family.

But because I believe in purgatory, or the “requirement of temporal punishment for sins,” I can rest.

You rest because God is getting revenge on your enemies for you? This is not Christian comfort.

51As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy themc]?” 55But Jesus turned and rebuked them, 56andd] they went to another village.

The purpose of Purgatory is not punishment, it’s cleansing. I believe we are cleansed before/at death, not after. Protestants and Catholic agree cleansing is necessary, we disagree on when it takes place. Your intense hurt makes you want Justice, but Christs message is not about Justice but about Pardon. Purgatory will not repair the damage to your family. Your family is damaged in this life and suffers in this life regardless of weather Purgatory exists or not. You live in a fallen world.

Forgive and you will be forgiven.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”
40Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”
“Tell me, teacher,” he said.
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled.”
“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

 

[Cat]

Syele, the Psalms are full of rejoicing over God’s justice. Try Psalm 3 (esp. vs. 7). There are many more. So I think I’m in good company.

I don’t consider my old church pastors my “enemies.” They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we hope that we will be together with Christ in heaven.

And I don’t agree that Christianity is about pardon. The reason we are pardoned is because the demands of justice have been met (by Jesus).

It’s not that I’m rejoicing or thrilled or gloating that we will all suffer temporal punishment. I’m just content. God is my shield, my sword, my fortress. He will do the right thing.

And you say that you believe in cleansing (purgatory) at death. That belief is not inconsistent with Catholic teaching. I’ve heard priests teach that purgatory occurs instantaneously at death, and that it may be a thousand years of “human time,” but an instant of “God time.”

The main point is that the Bible teaches that a person will not enter heaven with sin, and that the sin needs to be purged or cleansed or burn away before a person can enter heaven. Right?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I still think this is WAY off-topic, but I will humor you for a moment, assuming you have some point

from dictionary.com:
Personal:
6.done, carried out, held, etc., in person: a personal interview.

Relationship:
3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other: has a close relationship with his siblings.

there are other definitions of personal and relationship, but these are the ones referred to. I’m talking about the difference between knowing *about *Jesus and knowing Him. I can read about George Washington, or Jim Elliot and know tons of info about them. It’s not the same as KNOWING George Washington or Jim Elliot.

Here are Biblical references that show we are supposed to know God, not just know about Him and we are to let Jesus live through us (bold mine):
1 John 4 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
John 14 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 Cor 6
5Do you not know that your bodies are **members of Christ himself? **
…
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price.

---

So what we are saying is “know Jesus, not just about Him” and" allow the Holy Spirit to live in you and through you". No sane pastor preaches that a BAD relationship with Jesus is acceptable to be saved. They mean a good one. The Scriptures give TONS of info on how to have that relationship… but you asked only what a “personal relationship” is, not how to have a good one, so I’ll stop here.

Syele-

I note with interest that the verses you quote in support of your definition of “personal relationship” frequently mention “obeying”.

If you love me, you will obey…obedience to Jesus’ commands seems pretty significant, don’t you think?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Jesus paid for our sins when He died on the cross. even the ones we committed way after His death or after we accepted the gift. He didn’t remove the earthly consequences of the sin from us, He paid the debt we incurred for doing it. We will still suffer the consequences of our actions as long as we are living on this earth. Once we are dead though we go to judgment. God will see our debt as paid in full because Jesus paid our debt to God already.

Gee I dont know where to step in here, speaking to the above Syele you are doing well on explaination, but I want to add in light of Cats post. Cat Im sorry you had a bad experience at your old church. Ive had my share, several pastors ran out on rails and a person spanking my son and the pastor believing them.

Well to encourgage you both pastors in the first went on to better things one a head of a college and the other now in politics.
The last one, well the church did break up and not reform. God does have a way of sorting us out if we leave it to Him. My hubby also had a prob in his younger yrs with the last pastors demonation, they were part of the whole breakdown, its finally reforming and the core church from the 7 or so they had is much more humble.

Its something protestants could learn from catholics, to not treat church as a club so much. That said I still wouldnt toss the baby out with the bathwater.

As for consequences, we make our beds and we must lie in them. No one gets a free card, there is still the judgement. I siad I have to research it further, but cannot understand a person whos died having opportunity to “measure up” to God. When your dead then you know whats up, so it would be easy to say ooohh ok now I know Gods real of course I will toe the line and make amends. It wont take faith.

But before you die, you need faith. Faith in Christ, believing that He was indeed real and indeed do what He did for man.

Those in that church Cat could be the ones that Christ will tell I never knew you. They need to make amends to you, perhaps one day someone will. Its on their head, not yours, yours is only to let it go, and leave it to God to handle. Hes much better at it then we are. I do not believe anyone is going to “get away” with anything.

Isnt it said that you cannot hide from God and if your on His bad side you would rather the mountain would fall on you, but it wont listen cause it listens to God. * (my version in order to instill upon you my feelings on the subject, my heart goes out to you)*

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I feel like I’ve answered your post before. So I’ll not bother repeating.

Instead I’ll ask two things;
When you read your bible do you get any sort of blessing from God or any thing like that, or is it completely neutral like reading a novel or whatever.
and
What, exactly, does covering sins mean, what are the mechanics of it?

I think the covering sins is covered at this point too now, once I get more info I will probably be back.

For the next question, when I read my bible it could be netural if I dont bring anything to it, by that I mean read without expecting anything new or as a chore. Without a open mind, too preoccupied with other things. All to be avoided and honest about.

Before I read, I pray for God to speak to me, reveal to me any truths, improvements, knowledge to bring it to my mind. Still my mind and focus on Him. I find U2’s song “I havent found what Im looking for” to be true, in the way that every time one looks through the bible there is more, you will never find it all, in a lifetime of study. Those that say oh I have that verse down pat are wrong, because there is always more. Gods Word never goes out empty, there is a blessing if we will accept it.

If one is reading this way, then later when something happens or you see a thing, the Word will come to your mind. And underscore what you have read.

Does that make sense? is this what you were wondering?

 

[I_Leatherman]

…[reading the Bible] … there is a blessing if we will accept it.

Which in Catholicism is called an indulgence, which you recieve by reading it in the proper manner. So you are the happy recipient of indulgences, [probably], though you did not know it.

But I don’t think ‘covering sins’ has been explained fully.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Well, going back to the restaurant analogy…

ok…but you did’nt say what happens to the sins. You are now talking about two different things. The first is sin, which is what I’m talking about. The other, which you include now, is the temporal punishment due to sin. All I really want to know at the moment is where is the sin after it is paid for?
What does ‘paying for the sin’ really mean.

e.g. from your restaurant…

Man walks into the restaurant with sin.
Someone else in the restaurant pays for his sins.
Man walks out of the restaurant.

1. Where are his sins now?
2. Are they left in the restaurant?
3. Or does the man carry them back out of the restaurant?

 

[guanophore]

It says our Works are burned, not ourselves.

But it says that the person will be saved “as through a fire” and that some may enter heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments! I don’ t know about you,but having had my dwelling burn down with me in it I can tell y ou for sure that a person does not remain unaffected by such an experience.

 

[Cat]

kitty chan, you have made an excellent comment: we shouldn’t treat church as a club.

I think this has become a trend in Protestantism today, and I fear that some Catholics probably do the same thing. It’s part of our need as humans to fit in and be part of a group.

But as you say, church is not a club.

Thanks.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

well thanks (fellow) Cat

I cant take total credit, I guess cause U2 said it first. I was a bit upset til I thought of it, then I realised it was right.

Thus why I find myself without a church home. Other than the one in the woods near my “vacation” home (trailer in a spot) That we particularly like, but its too far (5 hrs) to regularly attend

This time Im doing something different before I go, may sound odd but Im going to get myself “grounded” as they say before I attend again. For now I also go with family, (baptist presbyterian) best friend 0catholic all from time to time. Other than that read Lewis etc. So I understand you wanting to find a place and Im glad the catholic church is good for you.

I havent reconcilled everything about the catholic church yet so thus why I dont jump in As I get closer God will let me know where I should be. Also my darling hubby who has bad experiences everytime he sets foot in a church door, so like I said I really do understand hurt. But people in clubs hurt people because they forget why they are in the club to begin with.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Which in Catholicism is called an indulgence, which you recieve by reading it in the proper manner. So you are the happy recipient of indulgences, [probably], though you did not know it.

But I don’t think ‘covering sins’ has been explained fully.

I meant covering sins has been covered for the moment for me until I get home and have time to sort through Malcoms letters.

As for the other you are saying Blessings are indulgences?

 

[Zooey]

My comment was in direct relation to the financial windfall
Simon

I guess I must be a little slow, http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif but I really don’t understand how you think that the Catholic Church could get a “financial windfall” out of my prayers & Bible reading?

What you say seems to make sense, thank you for trying to lay it out. But what you say seems to downplay what others have said about doing something paying a price to erase the sin.

I thought we die and because we have accepted Christs sacrifice and acknowledged Him as our Lord and Saviour, and have tried to live our lives as He taught us to. Upon our death when we are looked upon by God He sees Jesus, so we are saved by His Grace. So its more than white robes, its** covered** in the Blood of Christ, so sin does not show.

Oh, its better than that!! The sin is:nope: not just covered!! The sin will have all been washed away!!! Praise God!! I don’t have to see my Lord & Saviour for the 1st time face to face, with all that old muck just out of sight!! It will no longer exist.

There is still a idea that a person can buy or do something in purgatory then enter Heaven. Which simply doenst work because why bother here on earth just do what you want and make up later.
Im not sure how to read this in these posts

Well, but then you might not get to Heaven at all!!
No, we are all of us “working out our salvation with fear & trembling”…

I think that the reason that a lot of Protestants have problems with the idea of purgatory, is that a lot of us have the wrong picture of it in our heads.
It was a great revelation to me, the first time that somebody explained it, as being a cleansing process that we go through when we die… That is how I think of it now: Purgatory is the chance to take a nice hot bath, shampoo my hair, brush my teeth & put on fresh clothing before I meet the Master.
Isn;t that how we all would like to be, when we meet some important person here on earth??? How much more, then, should we wish for the same thing, before we meet the King of kings & Lord of lords??
Not clutching my garments around me, in the:blush: hopes that nothing shows…
Scripture tells us that we will be “changed into His image”. His image is perfection! So He will give us the chance for that dip in the spiritual tub.

HTH!

 

[I_Leatherman]

Kitty Chan:

As for the other you are saying Blessings are indulgences?

At the Most basic level, yes. Both bestow a kindness from God, administered by His Priests to His people.

The word indulgence originally meant kindness or favor;

The word blessing; “the priests [of the OT] at the express direction of God were wont to administer it to the people. “Thus shall you bless the children of Israel. . . and the Lord will turn His countenance and give them peace””

 

[RNRobert]

Another explanation of the concept of purgatory can be seen in the chapter ‘The obstinate toy soldiers’ in his book Mere Christianity. In the chapter, Lewis asks us to imagine that a child’s tin soldier was changed into flesh and blood. Now, supposing that the tin soldier had a mind; it would resist turning in to flesh since it saw it’s tin being spoiled.
Its similar to us in our spiritual life. We are to be transformed into Christ’s image, but our fleshly, self-willed, selfish nature resists. We have certain habits and sins that we cling to and need to let loose of in order for this to happen. We are supposed to let go of it during this life, but unfortunately most of us aren’t able to do it completely in this life, thus the need for purgartory.
In Lewis’s book The Great Divorce (and I think also in The Last Battle, the seventh and final Narnia book), he used the concept “farther in and higher up.”

 

[RNRobert]

I guess I must be a little slow, http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif but I really don’t understand how you think that the Catholic Church could get a “financial windfall” out of my prayers & Bible reading?

I think myfavoritmartin is referring to the selling of indulgences back in the middle ages. Of course the Catholic Church stopped that practice 500 years ago (it should be pointed out that the indulgences were to raise money for a new church (St Peter’s basilica) and I think even Protestants would agree that raising money for a new church is not a bad thing, but there were abuses so the church stopped it all together), but some non-Catholics still have to http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w46/bogamol/th_deadhorse.gif



Besides, Catholics are pikers when it comes to money-raising. Just look at our Evangelical brethren on TV!

 

[RNRobert]

Just a thought regarding Cat’s experience.

I was recently reading 2nd Timothy and came across this passage in 4:14:

Alexander the coppersmith did me great deal of harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.

I’m not sure whether Alexander was a Christian or not, as verse 15 says “he has strongly resisted our preaching,” but Paul mentions in 1 Tim 1:20 an Alexander “whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme” (the same term that Paul used to condemn the man sleeping with his stepmom in 1 Cor 5), so he may be a lapsed Christian. In any case, we do see from the words of Paul himself that our actions have consequences.