Indulgences

[myfavoritmartin]

You mean the “whole of christianity” rests on the existance of Christ Church The Catholic Church. Yes, I would agree with that. Without the Catholic Church there is no christianity. No presents of Christ here on earth as he promised. No bible.

You must be starting to realize how important the Catholic Church truely is to christianity.

Though you have a funny way of admitting it.

Is that how you think I meant that comment?
I’m sorry, you’ve misunderstood me!

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Is that how you think I meant that comment?
I’m sorry, you’ve misunderstood me!

It’s better than assuming that your comment lacked any christian charity or the example of loving ones neighbor as your self, isn’t it?

Which was closer to the mark, my first comment or this one?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

It’s better than assuming that your comment lacked any christian charity or the example of loving ones neighbor as your self, isn’t it?

Which was closer to the mark, my first comment or this one?

My comment was in direct relation to the financial windfall directly associated with both, if that’s uncharitable I am sorry, it’s my opinion. And also of many Catholics whom choose to no longer accept the doctrine of purgatory.
Pax,
Simon

 

[mikeledes]

I don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches the doctrines of purgatory and indulgences because they are a financial windfall.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

many Catholics whom choose to no longer accept the doctrine of purgatory.

At what point do the faithful cease to be Catholic? I can’t know the answer to the question, either. That is only for God.

If you turn your back to the revealed Truths by God, are you not “protesting” one of his revealed Truths. At what point is that a new denomination of the Catholic faith? This is the same path that has led many away from Truth.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches the doctrines of purgatory and indulgences because they are a financial windfall.

God Bless,
Michael

Well they use to which is why indulgence has become a dirty word.

 

[mikeledes]

Well they use to which is why indulgence has become a dirty word.

That is what it degenerated into in certain quarters of Europe. This does not mean that was the intent.

God Bless,
michael

 

[LSK]

Well I still don’t get it… You are saying that the churches power to bind and loose is enough so that the Church can just decide if someone has been prayed for enough to get out of purgatory? I thought that was only up to God.

It is up to God…what you are not seeing is the connection between the Church being given the power to bind and loose and the fact that this power is not something Church Elders give themselves…it is given to The Church by God…what this means is that the Church is guided by Her Spouse so that what she institutes on earth is actually from God.

 

[LSK]

My comment was in direct relation to the financial windfall directly associated with both, if that’s uncharitable I am sorry, it’s my opinion. And also of many Catholics whom choose to no longer accept the doctrine of purgatory.
Pax,
Simon

What you are pointing to, Simon, is that during the Middle Ages many sinners active in the Church misused their authority in terms of what the Church teaches. The Church - that which was created by Jesus Christ - has never changed Her teachings on indulgences or purgatory. These teachings have grown, certainly, and unfortunately these teachings have been misinterpreted and abused. However, it would be like saying that all the truthful Christian teachings of the Southern Baptists are not valid because some of her preachers have thrown bombs into African-American Churches and killed little children in defense of what they saw as an attack on their way of life given to them by God.

I understand it is difficult for those outside the arms of the Holy Mother Church to separate those who have abused their authority or twisted Her Teachings from the Church itself. It is difficult at times for Catholics to do that and we are often ashamed of our past. However, we need to remember that we are all members of the Body of Christ…we are all sinners…we are all in need of the Sacraments…and we can only get those Sacraments through The Church.

 

[francesco920]

Hello my sister, its imparitive that all members be for indulgences and purgatory, without these items the whole bassilica would tumble to dust.

You mean like the hundreds of churches, statues, monasteries, and artwork that “tumbled to dust” because of Protestant iconoclasm?

Like Protestant iconoclasm, the sale of indulgences was not a good thing. I think we can all agree on this.

Now that we have that issue cleared up, let us move on to intelligent discussion about indulgences.

 

[guanophore]

This is the real point protestants disagree with. God finishes the work when we die, nothing is left unfinished.

How do you conclude that? On what basis? And how do you reconcile that with this passage:

1 Cor 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw - 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. "

It seems to me that the Apostle is speaking about “that day” meaning the coming of Christ on the clouds, when he will judge the living and the dead. Purgatory is this “state of purgation” where everyone’s work is revealed with fire. Are you saying this happens upon each person’s death, instead of on the Day of Judgement?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hello my sister, its imparitive that all members be for indulgences and purgatory, without these items the whole bassilica would tumble to dust.

Dean-

I’m not sure exactly what your vivid imagery refers to, but yes, the doctrine of indulgences is a part of the Catholic faith.

Make sure you have the proper understanding only. There is more than enough erroneous propaganda out there…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

My comment was in direct relation to the financial windfall directly associated with both, if that’s uncharitable I am sorry, it’s my opinion. And also of many Catholics whom choose to no longer accept the doctrine of purgatory.
Pax,
Simon

Dean-

There are Catholics who no longer accept the doctrine of Purgatory just as there are Protestants who no longer accept the Real Presence of Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

Both groups need to be properly catechized, but the Church of Christ based in Rome has taught nothing less for 2,000 years.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

it was based in the gospel teaching that whenever you give to the least of his people, you are giving to God,and the teachings on the giving of alms. The Church was the vehicle for such wellfare in those early day of the Church not secular governments.

For the record the Catholic Church didn’t come up with this concept of indulgences. There were individuals within the Church that came up with the concept. The Church can’t be judged by the actions of some of her “followers” anymore than your church can be judged by the actions of some of the “followers” in it.

I think this is a little narrow. When you look at the history of indulgences, you can see that it has been supported by the Popes for centuries.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

purgatory

Ahhh… The topic that is so easy and biblical, yet so misunderstood, and has been over complicated by people trying to explain, refute, whatever, that the original intent is lost on so many…

What you say seems to make sense, thank you for trying to lay it out. But what you say seems to downplay what others have said about doing something paying a price to erase the sin.

I thought we die and because we have accepted Christs sacrifice and acknowledged Him as our Lord and Saviour, and have tried to live our lives as He taught us to. Upon our death when we are looked upon by God He sees Jesus, so we are saved by His Grace. So its more than white robes, its covered in the Blood of Christ, so sin does not show.

There is still a idea that a person can buy or do something in purgatory then enter Heaven. Which simply doenst work because why bother here on earth just do what you want and make up later.

Im not sure how to read this in these posts

 

[I_Leatherman]

…[covered]…so sin does not show.

Purgatory is where all remains of sin on your soul are totally purged, annihilated - they no longer exist.

Why would anyone wish to believe they can bring their sins into heaven by having them covered over. It seems rather a selfish, sneaky way - heaven will have perfect saints like the Apostles and Prophets who have no sin in them, then over in this corner of heaven is someone who was unwilling to give up their old sins and they just try to cover them over instead.
Can’t He see into your soul. Does’nt He know every part of your being. How are you going to hide sin from Him - and why cover it over?

There is still a idea that a person can buy or do something in purgatory then enter Heaven. Which simply doenst work because why bother here on earth just do what you want and make up later.

Why do anything here on earth?

If you are perfect here on earth at the time of your death, you will go straight to heaven.
If you are somwhat less than perfect then that process of becoming perfect is continued and completed after death. Then you enter heaven.
If you don’t want to be perfect at all in life, you won’t have your ‘will’ after death to choose to change that.
Purgatory is that place or state where those who *are *going to heaven and are less than perfect must pay every last farthing of their dues before the jailer releases them.
You cannot be released from hell, so that place or state which is refered to is not hell.
If that state or place was just on earth, then earth would be a perfect place, everyone would be in jail repaying their debts and there would be no sin or violence or crime. But earth is not like that. The vast majority of people will die in a less than perfect state. And justice, the jailer, must extract what is due from those in purgatory before they will be released.

 

[RNRobert]

That is purgatory.
Becoming perfect is not easy. But everyone wants to do it. Once you are in purgatory you then know you are going to heaven so maybe becoming perfect in purgatory is a bit easier there than here.

Agreed. Jesus himself said “Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

 

[RNRobert]

As for selling indulgences, as someone said in another post, the alms we give go to God, this is Scripturally based, as in Acts 10:4, the pagan Cornelius is told that his “prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”
The indulgences which started the Reformation was to raise money for a new basilica in Rome (I believe the old one was falling apart), which was not a bad thing. Of course, it was abused, which is why the church gave up the whole thing.
Now, before any non-Catholic picks up a stone to throw at the Church, he or she should look their side first. How many times have we seen televangelists on TV with their mitts out for money? (if the Catholic Church was a money-making operation, as anti-Cs, claim, then our priests would be on TV with tacky suits). Even the Evangelical radio station told its listeners they would be “blessed” if they donated.

 

[heisenburg]

There is still a idea that a person can buy or do something in purgatory then enter Heaven

Can someone DO anything once in the state of Purgatory to speed things along? Absolutely not! As mentioned, one) we don’t know how long it takes. It may be instant. And two) They are already destined for Heaven. Nothing can happen to change someone state.

With regards to indulgences…
There are two things to consider.
The first part
Many people have issues with ‘praying someone out of Purgatory’…
However, it is a very Biblical Principle to say that the faith of someone affects the state of another in the Body of Christ. Example: The Roman soldier who comes up to Jesus asking him to heal his servant. It wasn’t the faith of the servant that healed him, but the faith of the Roman soldier. So to when we pray for someone in the state of Purgatory, I am saying God, please make the process move along. I am using my faith to help someone else. Two things happen, one it goes towards my treasure in heaven (an indulgence sorta) because I am showing compassion for someone else in the Body of Christ. and two) My Faith in Christs saving grace may very well affect the length of time it takes for someone to remain in that state. Again, All biblical. We are asked to pray for others all the time, and God does hear them, and sometimes, our prayers affect the person we are praying for. Someone in the state of Purgatory is more in the Body of Christ than we are, so, why is it any different than praying for your friend down the street.

The second aspect
Things we do here affect how long we are in the STATE of purgatory.
When we sin, things happen to our soul that make it detestable to god. However, there is also the reverse. There are things that decrease that detestability. When I feed the poor, read the bible regularly, Cloth the naked, etc… there is a whole list, these things reduce the level of corruption on the soul. THAT is an indulgence. So, it is a word to describe something we do that is PLEASING to God. Biblical principle. When we do what is pleasing, various stains from sin are removed because our nature slowly changes.

Can we PURCHASE an indulgence of any kind for the purpose of Purchasing indulgences… ABSOLUTLY IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY NO!!! This is one of the things Martin Luther rightly had a problem with, and the Church agreed with Martin Luther. Indulgences are in essence between you and God.

Thats being said, giving to the poor however is an Indulgence, as it is pleasing to God. It doesnt matter how much you give, as long as the giving is real to you… remember the parable of the women who gives only 2 pennies?

Remember, an Indulgence is something that is done that is pleasing to God and reduces our level of corruption. It is a word to simply describe that very biblical principle.

If we are reducing the level of Corruption, we are, therefore, reducing the amount the Christs blood must clean.

Finally… i want to reiterate. PURGATORY IS MEARLY THE WORD USED TO DESCRIBE THE LAST TIME CHRIST MUST CLEANSE US WITH HIS BLOOD…

I always picture purgatory as being like the jet of air you pass through as you enter some Wal-Marts.

Anyway… Hope that helps
In Christ

 

[Cat]

I think that part of the problem that Protestants have understanding purgatory is that they don’t believe a person can be perfect and sinless.

This concept was not taught in any of the Protestant (evangelical) churches that I was involved with for more than 40 years, even though it’s plain as the sky in the Bible. We are to be perfect, as Christ was perfect…

But not now. In heaven, but on this earth, we aren’t supposed to worry about doing good works, we’re just supposed…I never was sure what exactly we were supposed to be doing. Glorifying God? What, in practical terms, does that mean? Many people seemed to think it meant singing, praying, and swaying in a “worship” service.

We were taught that we shouldn’t be doing “good works,” but that Christ should do them through us. What, in practical terms, does THAT mean? Many people seemed to think it meant doing whatever you pleased (as long as it wasn’t “sinful”) and not worrying about anything, since we were “covered by Christ” anyway.

I didn’t get the whole point of life in Christ. A relationship? What did THAT mean, in practical terms? For people like me, who don’t have an easy time developing HUMAN relationships, a “relationship with Christ” was really hard to comprehend and practice.

Like I said, the idea that we are actually supposed to be “becoming perfect” here on this earth was totally, completely foreign to me as a Protestant. I didn’t think it was possible. Only Jesus was perfect.