Indulgences

[Kitty_Chan]

I think there are two choices, I think this is what he was saying:

1. God could, concievably, have ‘saved everyone’ by zapping humanity, past present and future all at once, and making us instantanously altogether perfect, like Adam and Eve when He first created them. In that case nobody would ever sin again, there would no longer be any sin in the world.

Of course, no problems with this

…or,

1. God, instead established His Church, His Mystical Body, He breathed His Holy Spirit into it as He had breathed Life into Adams newly created body. This Church He gave His power, He said, to forgive sins in His name - in His stead. Those whose sins you forgive…and… what you bind on earth…etc.
   So that it is through His Church that we access Gods life - His gift to us.
   Its through His Church that your sins are forgiven now, today…

no problems

Christs death was not perfect and lacking as you say.

This was not said by me, this is what I was addressing, It was perfect and not lacking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It was perfect and not lacking.

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

:tiphat:

 

[martino]

Its not that we don’t understand temporal punishment, it’s that we disagree that there is temporal punishment after our physical death.

.

1 Cor 3:11 “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the Day will show it because it is to be* revealed with fire**, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” *

This suffering must refer to some temporal punishment that takes place after death, “the Day” will show it! This is a persons judgment day. We all agree there is no suffering in Heaven and we also would agree that those in Hell will not be saved, but somehow these souls that are saved are also suffering loss after their works were revealed and tested with fire.

You say you dont believe in “temporal punishment” but can you explain this verse in any other way? Please do.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

:tiphat:

I wonder what the OSAS crowd and the Calvinists say about this?

Good catch.

CDL

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Well, there are alot of replies and its hard to know what to speak to first, sorry Im moving around and miss days here and there.

Syele is better at the explainations than I am (thanks) To try to answer because I believe its in bad form not to because so many have written long explainations I dont want you to think I ignored you. Here goes it may be a little out of order.

Originally I wrote about the statement it was lacking. I consider it to be perfect so it could not lack. Or its not perfect, period.

When Christ died for all sin, it was sin from a to z. sin was, is and to come. God is timeless we are in time. So its hard to understand He died for something commited 3 yrs from now.

I get it, I understand that just because He died for sin and I am washed does not get me a* I can do what I want card *cause Im always saved (OSAS) it would do the board well not to brush all protestants with this because not all believe it.

When you commit a crime, you should go to jail or whatever. Christs death is not a sin as you will card. When Im mean or do something to someone, I pay back if that language makes more sense. I pay back by confessing my sins before God and going to the other person and making amends. This is a process you go through all your life, its called growing. Putting away childish things. Dismantaling yourself, saying goodbye to what you were, putting away the old man. I understand this.

btw Purgatory is obviously were people get the idea of ghost whisperer, mediums helping the lost soul find the light. Going back to earth to fullfill a final good mission. Talking to ghosts that have haunted a place, etc etc.

This transition part when we die. Ive understood we are in His pressence, possibly asleep, or we wake in His arms. dont know dont care really whatever is good with me. As for the fire, we are in it now, we are being refined as we go, we are all suffering to different degrees. when we die and then the judgement, we will be judged as we judged.

As a body of believers we will have suffered through life as well perhaps thats the lack. Paul said he suffered for you when I read it. But perhaps his suffering is because Christ said we would suffer as a church because of His Name. And there are some who have suffered for us and we dont have to because they did. dont know how well Ive replyed sorry if this is a bit disjointed.

Thanks, learning alot.

 

[I_Leatherman]

btw Purgatory is obviously were people get the idea of ghost whisperer, mediums helping the lost soul find the light. Going back to earth to fullfill a final good mission. Talking to ghosts that have haunted a place, etc etc.

This transition part when we die. Ive understood we are in His pressence, possibly asleep, or we wake in His arms. dont know dont care really whatever is good with me. As for the fire, we are in it now, we are being refined as we go, we are all suffering to different degrees. when we die and then the judgement, we will be judged as we judged.

The second paragraph is like temporal punishment for sin.
But if you die before you make satisfaction for sin in this world the remainder of sin on your soul must be removed before you can enter heaven. This process is called purgatory, as some say its a continuation to completion of what has begun in this life.

For the first para., this is as old as the hills in every culture, and is not restricted to the ancient or modern western world.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

well leatherman I will have to look up more on purgatory, perhaps I will read what Lewis said about it. Any particular book he wrote on it, I think it was in Mere Christianity, but I dont have it I will have to wait until Im home. If case you wonder why Lewis, he has a way of explaining things, so I understand.

Other than that, I will leave it in my undecided file. Although I do have concerns this is where people get this talking to ghosts and helping them cross over. I did always wonder where they got the notion they can talk its just not a area to be wandering around in because whatever they may think, they are never talking to Aunt Meg. I have a problem with the dead having any more “chances” other than judgement in which case they are not dead.

Thanks

 

[RNRobert]

well leatherman I will have to look up more on purgatory, perhaps I will read what Lewis said about it. Any particular book he wrote on it, I think it was in Mere Christianity, but I dont have it I will have to wait until Im home. If case you wonder why Lewis, he has a way of explaining things, so I understand.

Read his book Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer. Here’s a quote:

"Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy?” Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know” “Even so, sir.” "

"I assume that the process purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it.’

 

[I_Leatherman]

Although I do have concerns this is where people get this talking to ghosts and helping them cross over. I have a problem with the dead having any more “chances” other than judgement in which case they are not dead.

Thanks

Yes you should read more about it.
You don’t get more ‘chances’.
When you die you are judged.
You go straightaway either to hell forever, or to heaven.
But most people are not perfect in this world.
You believe, for example, you are suffering in this world or ‘passing through the fire’.
Those souls in purgatory are also finishing what was left unfinished in ‘passing through the fire’ in this life.
They cannot enter heaven in any state less than perfection
And they can only go to heaven.

Prayer or indulgences - same thing.
He said, Ask Whatever You Will And It Will Be Done For You.
What is the noblest thing a person can do.
He said, No greater love can any man show than to give up his life for his friends.
Concern for others wellbeing must be the most noble object we can seek.
So, hopefully, we ask Him - through prayer and indulgence, as He told us to ask Him, that those preparing to enter heaven will benefit from our prayer.

 

[Syele]

Those souls in purgatory are also finishing what was left unfinished in ‘passing through the fire’ in this life.

This is the real point protestants disagree with. God finishes the work when we die, nothing is left unfinished.

 

[I_Leatherman]

This is the real point protestants disagree with. God finishes the work when we die, nothing is left unfinished.

That is purgatory.
Becoming perfect is not easy. But everyone wants to do it. Once you are in purgatory you then know you are going to heaven so maybe becoming perfect in purgatory is a bit easier there than here.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
I didnt read all the threads so guide me if someone already answered this.

Where did the CC come up with the concept of indulgences? Where did it originate–the bible, sacred tradition or somewhere or from someone else? Just curious

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Hi,
I didnt read all the threads so guide me if someone already answered this.

Where did the CC come up with the concept of indulgences? Where did it originate–the bible, sacred tradition or somewhere or from someone else? Just curious

it was based in the gospel teaching that whenever you give to the least of his people, you are giving to God,and the teachings on the giving of alms. The Church was the vehicle for such wellfare in those early day of the Church not secular governments.

For the record the Catholic Church didn’t come up with this concept of indulgences. There were individuals within the Church that came up with the concept. The Church can’t be judged by the actions of some of her “followers” anymore than your church can be judged by the actions of some of the “followers” in it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

it was based in the gospel teaching that whenever you give to the least of his people, you are giving to God,and the teachings on the giving of alms. The Church was the vehicle for such wellfare in those early day of the Church not secular governments.

For the record the Catholic Church didn’t come up with this concept of indulgences. There were individuals within the Church that came up with the concept. The Church can’t be judged by the actions of some of her “followers” anymore than your church can be judged by the actions of some of the “followers” in it.

Hi,

Thank you:thumbsup:

So Sean are you for or against them? Looking at your statement you would seem to be against the belief in indulgences.
Do most catholics agree with indulgences or are they not really used anymore?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi,

Thank you:thumbsup:

So Sean are you for or against them? Looking at your statement you would seem to be against the belief in indulgences.
Do most catholics agree with indulgences or are they not really used anymore?

Hello my sister, its imparitive that all members be for indulgences and purgatory, without these items the whole bassilica would tumble to dust.

 

[heisenburg]

purgatory

Ahhh… The topic that is so easy and biblical, yet so misunderstood, and has been over complicated by people trying to explain, refute, whatever, that the original intent is lost on so many…

So… Purgatory

Saying someone is in Purgatory is Like saying someone is in Labor. It is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a place… it is a process or event…

OK, so what is purgatory?
As a protestant, do you believe that if you are in his Grace, upon death, you will go to heaven…
Catholics and Protestants alike may now scream YES!!!

As a protestant, Which is more likely, We die in Grace with god and have NO stain of Sin, or we die in his Grace and have at least SOME level of sin on us?

As A protestant, If you Die in his Grace, YET you have some stain of sin, Will you get to heaven?
Every Protestant and Catholic may now scream YES!!!

As a protestant can the stain of sin ENTER heaven?
All Catholics and Protestants BETTER scream NO… Nothing related to SIN can ever enter heaven

Now, since almost all of us that DO die in his grace will still have some level of sin on our soul what then…

General Protestant Answer…
We are either…
Hidden in Christ
Cleansed by his Blood
Clothed in a white rob

Even though you need to be clothed with the white rob, is there any chance you will go to Hell?
NO!!!

Cool… In essence, That is purgatory!
Why?
Regardless of which metaphor you use, Each of these actions cleanse us of Sin.

Purgatory is Simply a word used for the LAST time that cleansing takes place.

Is that last time painful? Dunno… may be, may not be. Some hints that it will be, but nothing definitive…

How long does it last? Again, Dunno, maybe instant, May take 1000 years… Dunno… no indication in scripture either way

Everything here uses biblical language… everything here is from the bible…

So, to anyone that wants to say Purgatory isn’t in the bible… Your right, the WORD isn’t, but the concept is overwhelmingly in the Bible. Show me anywhere I have strayed from scripture.

If you still want to say it isn’t biblical, you have a pride issue, not a bible issue.

Simplified definition…
Purgatory is the word used to define the LAST time we need to be cleansed with Christ as we enter Heaven.

There is nothing anti biblical with what I am saying… nor is there anything wrong with the idea of purgatory WHEN PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD

In Christ

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Ahhh… The topic that is so easy and biblical, yet so misunderstood, and has been over complicated by people trying to explain, refute, whatever, that the original intent is lost on so many…

Hi,

That’s funny that is exactly how I feel about the salvation message of Christ. But that is off topic

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Hi,

Thank you:thumbsup:

So Sean are you for or against them? Looking at your statement you would seem to be against the belief in indulgences.
Do most catholics agree with indulgences or are they not really used anymore?

??

I was assuming that you were asking about indulgences as related to the indulgences given in the middle ages and the practice of seemingly “selling” indulgences during that time.

I believe the words of Christ when he gave Peter to keys to the Kingdom and the power to forgive or retain sins as prescribe by Christ as any faithful christian should. If that is what you are asking.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

without these items the whole bassilica would tumble to dust.

You mean the “whole of christianity” rests on the existance of Christ Church The Catholic Church. Yes, I would agree with that. Without the Catholic Church there is no christianity. No presents of Christ here on earth as he promised. No bible.

You must be starting to realize how important the Catholic Church truely is to christianity.

Though you have a funny way of admitting it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

??

I was assuming that you were asking about indulgences as related to the indulgences given in the middle ages and the practice of seemingly “selling” indulgences during that time.

I believe the words of Christ when he gave Peter to keys to the Kingdom and the power to forgive or retain sins as prescribe by Christ as any faithful christian should. If that is what you are asking.

Hi,

No, I realize indulgences got a dirty name in the middle ages but I was wondering if catholics still get them or are required to.

I dont understand how the above statement about Peter has anything to do with indulgences.